An Approach to RV Defects

[cekkk]

Many problems owners encounter with their new rigs are a result of sloppy work during assembly. Quality and piece work might work well in a monastery. But I doubt it, human nature being what it is.

Manufacturers could profit by offering an "option" that would cover the extra cost of workers taking time to do it right and additional profit for the company. A system of worker id's associated with reports of subsequent reports of problems would help ensure the workers took their jobs seriously.

The companies might offer the extra pay work to their most reliable long time workers in order to avoid using people who still do sloppy work and then leave a short time later.

The option could be presented in a manner that would avoid the impression that the product would be substandard if not taken. Just a marketing issue.

[mlts22]

I can't really complain about the worksmanship on my rig. I got what I paid for, no more, no less. Everything works, and I didn't have to haul it back due to show-stopper failures, so I can't complain.

However, with RV wiring the way it is, it really should be a gauge or two thicker than what is strung for the 120VAC circuits. The charger for the batteries is a single stage. The plumbing is joined together by crimp connections. Staples are used instead of glue/screws. Ductwork in the ceilings are either holes in the insulation, or cheap plastic dryer hoses instead of metal air ducts which hold their shape and won't collapse.

A RV maker would have to add about 5% to the price, but use thicker wire, five stage converters, glue/screws, and so on, and the result would be a much more long lasting rig.

Even when installed correctly, sub-par appliances will always be sub-par appliances.

Part of quality is getting the stuff into place. Another part is starting with decent materials and components. You can't get a good apple pie with a pile of good apples and a bad chef, nor can you with a good chef and rotten apples.

So, if I were to point fingers, I'd point at whomever specs stuff out, as opposed to the people installing the items.

[Cloud_Dancer]

It's kinda interesting to me how many people are quick to suggest ways that SUCCESFUL manufacturers should improve their business. Whereas I have concluded that perhaps these (inferior-product) manufacturers probably have sensible reasons for running their business THEIR way.
With regard to RV's, we've been complaining about "poor quality" for 15 years (that I know of). Have they changed their ways, and improved their product quality? I guess not, people are still complaining.
Personally, I was able to fix/modify/correct most of the substandard-quality items in my Dutch Star, working on it in my own backyard. The biggest job was the "all fiberglass roof" (which was not).
Does anyone have any examples of poor-quality areas of construction found on their own RV's?

[subcamper]

I have some experience in setting up low-volume production of a product.

Quality doesn't have to cost much more. It depends on how you implement "quality".

If you define implementing better quality by keeping the same build procedure but having more QA guys inspect at the end and pull off bad units for rework, this will kill you financially. You will be reworking too many units.

If you define implementing better quality by changing how the item is built in the first place to drastically reduce rejects at the end of the line, then it won't cost as much.

The key is to reduce the "ad-lib" part of the assembly. Ideally the assembly consists of fixtures and jigs to make sure every wire is routed identically, each unit has the exact same screw placement, etc. Unfortunately the cost of fixturing has to be divided up among the production run, so there is a tradeoff depending on how many units will be built with the fixturing. Adding $200 per unit to pay for fixturing may be OK,, but in a low volume production run adding $1000 may not be ok.

Unless worker-to-worker and unit-to-unit variables are removed, it simply isn't possible to build consistent units.

I agree it it mostly management decisions that affect quality rather than "bad" workers.

When the US auto industry was putting out poor quality products in the 80s and 90s, the auto workers were still highly paid. The difference now is the manufacturing process. GM is building some of the best cars and trucks in the world now. Were their engineers not as smart before? I doubt it. Amazing what having your back to the wall (bankruptcy) will do to motivate you. BTW, their current well-designed and high quality vehicles are still at the same price point in the market as they were when poor-quality cars were being built.

Steve

[2012Coleman]

To blame the worker on the quality of the finished product is ridiculous. The process of manufacture is controlled by others in the company.

Totally agree. I have trained dirt farmers in Olive Branch Mississippi to be productive, award winning workers. Started out crashing wire guided equipment, but were turned into a well oiled workforce. Took them wanting it, and us having the patience and skills to teach them.

[deleted-2]

Asian manufacturer's will someday build RV's using robot technologies.
We will all be so impressed that we will fall willingly into a trance.

RV's are the last frontier.
When more and more folks in America come on line that's when offshore concerns will attack.
I'm surprised RV's aren't built South of US border to save cost's.
Heck my Dodge RAM was built down there...why not RV's?

[fla-gypsy]

Vulcaneer wrote:

fla-gypsy wrote:
Some folks took some shots at the persons assembling these things. Having worked in a piece work scenario before I can assure you that they are capable of doing much better and most would but they are working so fast to make a few measly dollars to survive they can't fathom the idea of doing it slower or better or they would all be in welfare/food stamp lines. Some probably already are. The construction model is at fault and quite frankly most of us could not afford an RV made right. There are several custom builders out there who do it the "right way" and few of us can touch the price

Ya know Gypsy, you have a good point there. However, I have worked in many automotive manufacturing plants. Those are piece work plants as well. The difference is that quality is "job 1". That is not just a saying. Machines are set up so that the cut good dimensions on the parts. The auto industry dislikes adjustments on the machines. They don't want machine operators making adjustments which can affect part quality. The machine operators have gaging stations, to measure critical dimensions. And the have CPK spec sheets to show the dimensional trends, measurement criteria, and process sheets that show dimensional requirements for the part. Inspect every 10th part, for example.

If a dimension is out of spec., then change the cutting tool to a new edge. Measure the next part to ensure it is right. And these dimensions are to the thousanths of an inch, or less. And these guys are required to make a certain number of parts per day. And if they make a bad part it goes into the scrap bin, and it gets evaluated for rework, later on. When the operator makes his parts quota, he gets to go take a nap or take a break somewhere. But they need to be on the floor to punch out when it is time. Not before. Not afterwards. Errors are measured in parts per million.

No matter what we think, automotive manufacturing is pretty precise. And very high volume. And the quality culture is built in. And parts are dimensioned in such a way they can be manufactured so they can be assembled without hang up. Quality is engineered in.

So piece work does not necessarily mean that quality needs to go out the window in favor of volume.

And I guess that is pretty much what you said. I just wanted to state a couple of examples. To help with your point.

I totally agree with your assessment of the auto industry and the difference in cars and trucks today vs the 70's and 80's is astounding. But those are nicely paid auto workers and the guys throwing together RV's are not paid anywhere near those wages. When it comes down to feeding the kids and making some guy buying a RV happy it's a no brainer. In the end the business model and the lack of commitment of the management of these builders to quality that result in the wide variance in initial quality of RV's.

[Cloud_Dancer]

In my case, with Newmar product, I am NOT talking about "poor" quality. What I'm talking about is a level of quality which some people wish was better. Me too, I wish that about everything I have. I'm somewhat of a dreamer.
On the matter of buying a RV, each buyer needs to decide what level of quality they can afford.
IMO what y'all are talking about is a level of quality that's not likely to change, unless there is a purchase-price increase. Case in point: After negotiating for a 27% discount across the board, I paid $170K for my Dutch Star (in 2003). Now, the 2014 Dutch Star is of a significantly higher quality. BUT, the price is much higher.
In RV's, which really can't be mass produced like cars since RV's are constructed more like house construction rather than how cars are constructed, higher quality means higher prices.
BTW the number of potential sales (real or anticipated sales) will determine if mass construction techniques are warranted.
I'm convinced that foreign companies have looked at building larger RV's, but so far I haven't seen any of them do it (here in the USA). Not enough profits for their taste, perhaps.

[JJBIRISH]

poor quality is poor management period… quality starts as a mindset from the top and is projected down the entire line… it never just happens and just throwing money at it won’t create quality…
it is a known, that is demanded and expected from the top, and reinforced at each step along the way… any breakdown is the responsibility of the next higher levels inability to do their job and control it, not the level where the breakdown occurs… continued or long term problems are the responsibility of two or more levels higher…
any product that is built below its standard or intended potential and sent out the door that way is of poor quality… it isn’t a price point thing at all… a $5 and a $10 widget should both be sold with a basic equal and expected quality… the only difference is the $10 widget might be chrome plated instead of painted, or made from a material that can be expected to last longer than a standard quality widget… but neither should preform below that expected standard or fail needlessly or prematurely…

[down_home]

Once a company goes public any more it is operated for maximizing ther profit of the CEOs, Boards and their really big stock holdings.
Quality goes out the door and prices go up and service goes down. This has been repeated so many times over the last three decades, I'm surprised everyone hasn't seen it. It is the same mentality and greed that gives us Chinese junk. There are no enforced quality standards and no commitment to quality. Wall Street is the major part of the shadow government and if nothing is done in all respects to it's conduct will bring down the Republic by itself.

[westend]

Part of the problem may be the customer. I think we Americans, in general, shop by price, not quality. I believe it has to do with the abundance of manufactured goods and that history is deep. In other countries, there is less emphasis on price and more on the quality of the item for sale.

To blame the worker on the quality of the finished product is ridiculous. The process of manufacture is controlled by others in the company.

[Cloud_Dancer]

Vulcaneer,
Good post, but it's a bit too long to include here in my reply.
Look, I'm not defending Newmar, heck there's nothing to defend. It's THEIR business, and they chose to locate it there for many reason that seemed good to them. AND, they are succesful,....even weathered the last economic slow-down quite well. I have first hand knowledge of how they were running their production line back in 2003. I could tell you much about the design deficiencies and areas of substandard construction in MY Dutch Star. I studied their operation, and talked to some of the workers. I felt that I had learned why they do it their way, and concluded that it was THEIR business to manage THEIR way. Obviously, they maintain a sufficiently high place in the market share scale to stay in business. I'm sure that there's plenty of people like myself who are NOT going to gamble years of their lives just to see if maybe somebody will manufacture RV's of higher quality, and sell them for the same price as Newmar. Y'all do it, NOT me. I've enjoyed mine, and will keep on doing it. It's the mostest for the leastest,...not the best, but a keeper nontheless.
And, I do NOT buy foreign-badged vehicles.

[Vulcaneer]

fla-gypsy wrote:
Some folks took some shots at the persons assembling these things. Having worked in a piece work scenario before I can assure you that they are capable of doing much better and most would but they are working so fast to make a few measly dollars to survive they can't fathom the idea of doing it slower or better or they would all be in welfare/food stamp lines. Some probably already are. The construction model is at fault and quite frankly most of us could not afford an RV made right. There are several custom builders out there who do it the "right way" and few of us can touch the price

Ya know Gypsy, you have a good point there. However, I have worked in many automotive manufacturing plants. Those are piece work plants as well. The difference is that quality is "job 1". That is not just a saying. Machines are set up so that the cut good dimensions on the parts. The auto industry dislikes adjustments on the machines. They don't want machine operators making adjustments which can affect part quality. The machine operators have gaging stations, to measure critical dimensions. And the have CPK spec sheets to show the dimensional trends, measurement criteria, and process sheets that show dimensional requirements for the part. Inspect every 10th part, for example.

If a dimension is out of spec., then change the cutting tool to a new edge. Measure the next part to ensure it is right. And these dimensions are to the thousanths of an inch, or less. And these guys are required to make a certain number of parts per day. And if they make a bad part it goes into the scrap bin, and it gets evaluated for rework, later on. When the operator makes his parts quota, he gets to go take a nap or take a break somewhere. But they need to be on the floor to punch out when it is time. Not before. Not afterwards. Errors are measured in parts per million.

No matter what we think, automotive manufacturing is pretty precise. And very high volume. And the quality culture is built in. And parts are dimensioned in such a way they can be manufactured so they can be assembled without hang up. Quality is engineered in.

So piece work does not necessarily mean that quality needs to go out the window in favor of volume.

And I guess that is pretty much what you said. I just wanted to state a couple of examples. To help with your point.

[deleted-2]

Good thread hope it doesn't go in a bad direction.

My experience in the worker quality foray may not apply.
My last 10 years in civil service was spent in a training capacity in a military back shop repairing\testing flight controls.

We battled constantly with quality and reliability.
Our command insisted on hiring in younger persons who had completed an off-site training program that provided basics.

About 30% of these new workers could not visualize the impact of low quality work.
I spent most of my time trying to drive home what malfunctioning parts meant to a pilot and passengers on aircraft in flight.

We did have intense inspection procedures and after failure tracking of course.
Yet some workers just cared only about numbers and output (driven by management).

In this situation it wasn't about pay or bottom lines.
It was about someones life and extremely high dollar losses.

Experience and fortitude are golden.

[fla-gypsy]

Some folks took some shots at the persons assembling these things. Having worked in a piece work scenario before I can assure you that they are capable of doing much better and most would but they are working so fast to make a few measly dollars to survive they can't fathom the idea of doing it slower or better or they would all be in welfare/food stamp lines. Some probably already are. The construction model is at fault and quite frankly most of us could not afford an RV made right. There are several custom builders out there who do it the "right way" and few of us can touch the price