Flying J / Pilot to install megachargers for med/heavy trks

[Reisender]

Interesting read. If you want to pull a fifth wheel with a medium or heavy truck your fueling situation just improved. Probably future bus conversions as well.

They are also adding CCS chargepoints for lighter vehicles although under a different program.

Times are a changing.

https://insideevs.com/news/628605/pilot-stations-fast-chargers-ev-trucks/amp/

[cptqueeg]

Grit dog wrote:
Ha, just read this!
Yes the logistics of OTR electric semis is mind boggling for many reasons, including regulatory limitations on drivers. But that is just one of many huge hurdles. And it’s still laughable at this point.
To comment on the Ill call it Reisender vs Dedmiston debate (only for simiplicity), Reisender as nice of a feller as he is, has repeatedly, like YS1 and others been very good at stopping their level of “understanding” at very convenient spots where delving further would not support their arguments or beliefs.
You can say that about anyone technically, however it is a prevalent if not the most prevalent general trait of (can I say {snip}?) a certain political and social affiliation.
Like take the cobalt example. I can get on the internet and it tells me 1lb of cobalt is used to refine 80,000 gallons of gasoline, or enough gas to fuel 10ea 30mpg cars for 350k miles each.
Then I can read that it takes between 6-15kg of cobalt per EV battery. Do the math and see that even with a little number fudging each way, there is orders of magnitude more cobalt being used in electronics and the mega batteries like for cars are obviously using waaaaay more than to make gasoline.
The Reisender YS1 camp will just say “well that’s over my head, but I’m saving the world!!” As they hop on their unicorn and fly away into the sunset convinced that they are morally superior, all while ignoring anything thst is inconvenient to think about or admit.

Now the Dedmiston’s (all of us, remember names were only used to differentiate the 2 camps here) sure, we kinda do the same. We buy china garbage and we have cell phones etc. We’re not “perfect”. BUT here’s the big difference…… wait for it……

MATH!!
Dedmiston’s can see that even if half of the EVs don’t use cobalt , whether that’s true or not, if the basic numbers are within a realm of reasonableness, EVs easily use over 100x the amount!

Carry on!

No credit for using math until you show your work.

What you've written is based on assumptions and presumptions and has nothing to do w math. Compare the scale of EV's produced vs the amount of gasoline consumed and get back to us on total amount of cobalt used. And just one other thing to consider is the potential to recycle the EV batts and the cobalt they contain.


And while we're using batts to carry electrical energy at the moment once roads are electrified there won't be near the need for big batteries as this process continues.

[Reisender]

Grit dog wrote:
Reisender know I wasn’t targeting you in particular and I tried to make it clear the names were just hypothetical folks on both sides of the argument. No offense meant.
You’ve been nothing but straightforward but in my example there are many/most on the EV side that are blinded by the idealism and ignorant or at least not admitting of the whole story.
And I’ve said this 100 times. I’d drive an EV all day if it made sense.
But it doesn’t and it just gets annoying when people gush over things like this and have no clue as to what other considerations need to be made and frankly don’t care because it would make them look silly.

Appreciate the post.

Safe travels.

[Grit_dog]

Reisender know I wasn’t targeting you in particular and I tried to make it clear the names were just hypothetical folks on both sides of the argument. No offense meant.
You’ve been nothing but straightforward but in my example there are many/most on the EV side that are blinded by the idealism and ignorant or at least not admitting of the whole story.
And I’ve said this 100 times. I’d drive an EV all day if it made sense.
But it doesn’t and it just gets annoying when people gush over things like this and have no clue as to what other considerations need to be made and frankly don’t care because it would make them look silly.

[Reisender]

dedmiston wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
Ha, just read this!
Yes the logistics of OTR electric semis is mind boggling for many reasons, including regulatory limitations on drivers. But that is just one of many huge hurdles. And it’s still laughable at this point.
To comment on the Ill call it Reisender vs Dedmiston debate (only for simiplicity), Reisender as nice of a feller as he is, has repeatedly, like YS1 and others been very good at stopping their level of “understanding” at very convenient spots where delving further would not support their arguments or beliefs.
You can say that about anyone technically, however it is a prevalent if not the most prevalent general trait of a certain political and social affiliation.
Like take the cobalt example. I can get on the internet and it tells me 1lb of cobalt is used to refine 80,000 gallons of gasoline, or enough gas to fuel 10ea 30mpg cars for 350k miles each.
Then I can read that it takes between 6-15kg of cobalt per EV battery. Do the math and see that even with a little number fudging each way, there is orders of magnitude more cobalt being used in electronics and the mega batteries like for cars are obviously using waaaaay more than to make gasoline.
The Reisender YS1 camp will just say “well that’s over my head, but I’m saving the world!!” As they hop on their unicorn and fly away into the sunset convinced that they are morally superior, all while ignoring anything thst is inconvenient to think about or admit.

Now the Dedmiston’s (all of us, remember names were only used to differentiate the 2 camps here) sure, we kinda do the same. We buy china garbage and we have cell phones etc. We’re not “perfect”. BUT here’s the big difference…… wait for it……

MATH!!
Dedmiston’s can see that even if half of the EVs don’t use cobalt , whether that’s true or not, if the basic numbers are within a realm of reasonableness, EVs easily use over 100x the amount!

Carry on!

I've never had a camp before, except for a literal camp. And honestly, I prefer the literal physical camp.

For anyone who's wondering why I dove into this topic so hard, I saw a thread a few days ago (maybe last week?) where way2roll posed some very measured and thoughtful questions about EVs to the leader of the other camp (if that's what we're calling it) and the questions were dodged outright (see my quote above). This was right around the time I heard about the interview on the Joe Rogan Experience and then I watched the video of the thousands of people working in the mines with no protective gear (literally in flip-flops). The guest on the podcast was an eye witness and attested that the people were forced to work for a dollar or two a day (including child labor). It's been grinding on me ever since.

(Note that this might be the first time way2roll has been called "measured and thoughtful", but that's one of the reasons the post jumped off the page at me.)

It just doesn't seem right to stand by and say nothing while the other side continues to cheerlead for EVs. I've had misgivings for a long time about the actual practicality and effectiveness from an environmental and economic standpoint, but the human rights aspect of it never really occurred to me.

When I was in college I had a part time job for the City of L.A. and every vendor was required to sign a statement that they weren't in any way connected to South Africa or anyone who furthered the practice of Apartheid. And now the state is mandating that we switch over to EVs that are actually accelerating the demand for slave labor. It's hard to reconcile the two behaviors except for the feel-good part of the EV cult.

I certainly don't have the answers, but in my opinion we're heading down the wrong path and people are literally being hurt by the EV movement. And posts that I've seen here on this forum prove my fear that the proponents of the EVs aren't being intellectually honest.

When I was in fifth grade our teacher was giving us a history lesson on the heroic acts of Kit Carson. (Hopefully I don't screw up the facts here. It's been a long time since fifth grade.) She was basically just reading from the text and telling us what a swell guy he was. But I had just been to Canyon de Chelly that summer and heard the Navajo's side of the story. I saw red when I heard my sweet teacher reading the story about him being a hero . So I raised my hand and told her the text was wrong. She was surprised, but she had me come to the front of the class and tell what I knew. So I gave the details of what I had heard about the massacres and the Trail of Tears, and then the teacher shut the text and talked to the class about sources of information and weighing various sides of the issue.

Sometimes you have to raise your hand. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but I don't for a minute believe that we've weighed both sides of the EV issues and arrived at balanced and informed position. Corporations are doing what corporations do. Governments are doing what governments do. And cheerleaders are doing what cheerleaders do. Hopefully the rest of us can ask some questions and push back enough to prevent anything that we'll all regret years down the road.

I get that. You want to stand for something. Raise your hand and make a difference. Probably the best way is to demand of the government of whatever country you live in to stop the use of cobalt. EG, shut down every refinery, medical practice that uses cobalt, every electronic hand held device and every EV that uses cobalt. Of course at the end of the day if you do that you’ll probably buying an EV like Tesla this year, or Rivian or Ford Lightning next year as they are adding LFP models as well. Or overseas a BYD as half of their production is also LFP.

Bottom line is I support the petrochemical industry, mining and pipelines. Reading into it that I somehow want to save the world because I choose an electric vehicle over a gas or diesel vehicle is on you. EV’s just suit our needs much better. If I was still RVing in a fifth wheel I would have a Ford F-350 diesel. Diesel rules for heavy towing.

But back to the thread topic, I think it’s a plus that those who will choose to tow with med duty electric trucks will have a place to charge as some of the big fuel chains start to adapt.

I hate that we have to villanize each other to discuss these topics on this forum. And yes I’m as guilty as anyone else. One of those “poke a stick at someone and expect a response” things.

Anyway. I’ll throw in the towel on this charging infrastructure topic. Carry on without me and safe travels to all…whatever you drive. :).

[way2roll]

Reisender wrote:

way2roll wrote:
This echoes some of the sentiments I posted on another thread. But in short, what have/will EV's actually solve? They were first (and in some cases) still touted as the green alternative to fossil fuels and emissions. The original facts beaten into submission were focused on tail pipe emissions and to that extent it's true. But if you look holistically at the entire lifecycle from mining to shipping, to manufacture, to charging to end of life disposal, they aren't better than ICE's. In some cases they are much worse in terms of cost, ecological, environmental, international trade and humanitarian impact. And all of this for what benefit? In most cases EV's are still performing much worse than ICE's - some that are critically important to 99% of Rv'ers are dramatic failures. So what's the point? Ev's haven't solved anything. They've just created new problems and kicked the can down the road - and at the cost of performance. Were it not for the billions of taxpayer dollars injected into this and auto makers forced into submission, EV's would have never taken off in a free market- as evidenced over the past 100 years.

Depends who you ask I suppose. Our previous SUV was a grand Cherokee. Our present SUV is electric. For our needs it is superior in every way to our former Jeep Grand Cherokee. Performance, convenience, 4 season comfort, low maintenance, tech, cost of operation. Most people that have switched to an EV would never switch back. But everyone has different needs and wants. Buy what works for you. But as per why? People like them. The test drive is very convincing for many.

Cheers.

The answer shouldn't be who you ask or ambiguous. It's pretty straight forward. What problems have EV's solved over ICE's and what "green" impacts are they making? Fun to drive? Sure. A better alternative? No. But it's touted as the "answer". Just don't look behind the curtain.

[dedmiston]

Grit dog wrote:
Ha, just read this!
Yes the logistics of OTR electric semis is mind boggling for many reasons, including regulatory limitations on drivers. But that is just one of many huge hurdles. And it’s still laughable at this point.
To comment on the Ill call it Reisender vs Dedmiston debate (only for simiplicity), Reisender as nice of a feller as he is, has repeatedly, like YS1 and others been very good at stopping their level of “understanding” at very convenient spots where delving further would not support their arguments or beliefs.
You can say that about anyone technically, however it is a prevalent if not the most prevalent general trait of a certain political and social affiliation.
Like take the cobalt example. I can get on the internet and it tells me 1lb of cobalt is used to refine 80,000 gallons of gasoline, or enough gas to fuel 10ea 30mpg cars for 350k miles each.
Then I can read that it takes between 6-15kg of cobalt per EV battery. Do the math and see that even with a little number fudging each way, there is orders of magnitude more cobalt being used in electronics and the mega batteries like for cars are obviously using waaaaay more than to make gasoline.
The Reisender YS1 camp will just say “well that’s over my head, but I’m saving the world!!” As they hop on their unicorn and fly away into the sunset convinced that they are morally superior, all while ignoring anything thst is inconvenient to think about or admit.

Now the Dedmiston’s (all of us, remember names were only used to differentiate the 2 camps here) sure, we kinda do the same. We buy china garbage and we have cell phones etc. We’re not “perfect”. BUT here’s the big difference…… wait for it……

MATH!!
Dedmiston’s can see that even if half of the EVs don’t use cobalt , whether that’s true or not, if the basic numbers are within a realm of reasonableness, EVs easily use over 100x the amount!

Carry on!

I've never had a camp before, except for a literal camp. And honestly, I prefer the literal physical camp.

For anyone who's wondering why I dove into this topic so hard, I saw a thread a few days ago (maybe last week?) where way2roll posed some very measured and thoughtful questions about EVs to the leader of the other camp (if that's what we're calling it) and the questions were dodged outright (see my quote above). This was right around the time I heard about the interview on the Joe Rogan Experience and then I watched the video of the thousands of people working in the mines with no protective gear (literally in flip-flops). The guest on the podcast was an eye witness and attested that the people were forced to work for a dollar or two a day (including child labor). It's been grinding on me ever since.

(Note that this might be the first time way2roll has been called "measured and thoughtful", but that's one of the reasons the post jumped off the page at me.)

It just doesn't seem right to stand by and say nothing while the other side continues to cheerlead for EVs. I've had misgivings for a long time about the actual practicality and effectiveness from an environmental and economic standpoint, but the human rights aspect of it never really occurred to me.

When I was in college I had a part time job for the City of L.A. and every vendor was required to sign a statement that they weren't in any way connected to South Africa or anyone who furthered the practice of Apartheid. And now the state is mandating that we switch over to EVs that are actually accelerating the demand for slave labor. It's hard to reconcile the two behaviors except for the feel-good part of the EV cult.

I certainly don't have the answers, but in my opinion we're heading down the wrong path and people are literally being hurt by the EV movement. And posts that I've seen here on this forum prove my fear that the proponents of the EVs aren't being intellectually honest.

When I was in fifth grade our teacher was giving us a history lesson on the heroic acts of Kit Carson. (Hopefully I don't screw up the facts here. It's been a long time since fifth grade.) She was basically just reading from the text and telling us what a swell guy he was. But I had just been to Canyon de Chelly that summer and heard the Navajo's side of the story. I saw red when I heard my sweet teacher reading the story about him being a hero . So I raised my hand and told her the text was wrong. She was surprised, but she had me come to the front of the class and tell what I knew. So I gave the details of what I had heard about the massacres and the Trail of Tears, and then the teacher shut the text and talked to the class about sources of information and weighing various sides of the issue.

Sometimes you have to raise your hand. I certainly don't claim to have all the answers, but I don't for a minute believe that we've weighed both sides of the EV issues and arrived at balanced and informed position. Corporations are doing what corporations do. Governments are doing what governments do. And cheerleaders are doing what cheerleaders do. Hopefully the rest of us can ask some questions and push back enough to prevent anything that we'll all regret years down the road.

[TechWriter]

wildtoad wrote:
Slavery has existed for thousands of years (and sadly exists to day), yet people still go to see the pyramids . . .

The pyramids weren't built by slaves.

[Reisender]

way2roll wrote:
This echoes some of the sentiments I posted on another thread. But in short, what have/will EV's actually solve? They were first (and in some cases) still touted as the green alternative to fossil fuels and emissions. The original facts beaten into submission were focused on tail pipe emissions and to that extent it's true. But if you look holistically at the entire lifecycle from mining to shipping, to manufacture, to charging to end of life disposal, they aren't better than ICE's. In some cases they are much worse in terms of cost, ecological, environmental, international trade and humanitarian impact. And all of this for what benefit? In most cases EV's are still performing much worse than ICE's - some that are critically important to 99% of Rv'ers are dramatic failures. So what's the point? Ev's haven't solved anything. They've just created new problems and kicked the can down the road - and at the cost of performance. Were it not for the billions of taxpayer dollars injected into this and auto makers forced into submission, EV's would have never taken off in a free market- as evidenced over the past 100 years.

Depends who you ask I suppose. Our previous SUV was a grand Cherokee. Our present SUV is electric. For our needs it is superior in every way to our former Jeep Grand Cherokee. Performance, convenience, 4 season comfort, low maintenance, tech, cost of operation. Most people that have switched to an EV would never switch back. But everyone has different needs and wants. Buy what works for you. But as per why? People like them. The test drive is very convincing for many.

Cheers.

[Grit_dog]

Ha, just read this!
Yes the logistics of OTR electric semis is mind boggling for many reasons, including regulatory limitations on drivers. But that is just one of many huge hurdles. And it’s still laughable at this point.
To comment on the Ill call it Reisender vs Dedmiston debate (only for simiplicity), Reisender as nice of a feller as he is, has repeatedly, like YS1 and others been very good at stopping their level of “understanding” at very convenient spots where delving further would not support their arguments or beliefs.
You can say that about anyone technically, however it is a prevalent if not the most prevalent general trait of (can I say {snip}?) a certain political and social affiliation.
Like take the cobalt example. I can get on the internet and it tells me 1lb of cobalt is used to refine 80,000 gallons of gasoline, or enough gas to fuel 10ea 30mpg cars for 350k miles each.
Then I can read that it takes between 6-15kg of cobalt per EV battery. Do the math and see that even with a little number fudging each way, there is orders of magnitude more cobalt being used in electronics and the mega batteries like for cars are obviously using waaaaay more than to make gasoline.
The Reisender YS1 camp will just say “well that’s over my head, but I’m saving the world!!” As they hop on their unicorn and fly away into the sunset convinced that they are morally superior, all while ignoring anything thst is inconvenient to think about or admit.

Now the Dedmiston’s (all of us, remember names were only used to differentiate the 2 camps here) sure, we kinda do the same. We buy china garbage and we have cell phones etc. We’re not “perfect”. BUT here’s the big difference…… wait for it……

MATH!!
Dedmiston’s can see that even if half of the EVs don’t use cobalt , whether that’s true or not, if the basic numbers are within a realm of reasonableness, EVs easily use over 100x the amount!

Carry on!

[way2roll]

This echoes some of the sentiments I posted on another thread. But in short, what have/will EV's actually solve? They were first (and in some cases) still touted as the green alternative to fossil fuels and emissions. The original facts beaten into submission were focused on tail pipe emissions and to that extent it's true. But if you look holistically at the entire lifecycle from mining to shipping, to manufacture, to charging to end of life disposal, they aren't better than ICE's. In some cases they are much worse in terms of cost, ecological, environmental, international trade and humanitarian impact. And all of this for what benefit? In most cases EV's are still performing much worse than ICE's - some that are critically important to 99% of Rv'ers are dramatic failures. So what's the point? Ev's haven't solved anything. They've just created new problems and kicked the can down the road - and at the cost of performance. Were it not for the billions of taxpayer dollars injected into this and auto makers forced into submission, EV's would have never taken off in a free market- as evidenced over the past 100 years.

[TexasShadow]

An interesting thread made moreso by the generally moderate and polite conduct of its participants. so kudos to you all for that.

[JRscooby]

wildtoad wrote:
Slavery has existed for thousands of years (and sadly exists to day), yet people still go to see the pyramids, and the other “wonders of the world”. We buy trillions of dollars worth of goods from our enemy China much of it built with slave labor, yet we still buy their stuff. I’m ok with folks not buying a product or component there of on moral grounds, but be consistent. Check the labels and don’t buy from countries that use slave labor, or are our enemies.

Kind of hard for me to take a stand against slavery in another country when there are many people in this one that work for profitable companies, but can't afford a decent standard of living.
Also, how do we determine who is "Enemy"? All my life Russia has topped the list. Now we have congress critters and other talking heads supporting Russia against democracy.
And we sell weapons to the last country that attacked US, killed on US soil, to use against counties that have never attacked US.

wildtoad wrote:
As one of, if not the largest fuel company in the USA, I expect Pilot to aggressively provide support for electric trucks and cars. It matters not how many chargers they install, it won’t be enough unless charging times come way down.

Yes, will take a lot of chargers. But shortly after I retired some truckstops started taking reservations for overnight parking. By law, a solo driver must be parked for 10 hours. If could do that while hooked to charger you had a reservation for, not much reduction in productivity.

[Reisender]

wildtoad wrote:
As one of, if not the largest fuel company in the USA, I expect Pilot to aggressively provide support for electric trucks and cars. It matters not how many chargers they install, it won’t be enough unless charging times come way down.

I tend to agree with this. Most electric semis seem to be around that 45 minutes to 60 minutes for a charge. I’m not sure how the fleet operators will work that in to the numbers. From a personal experience stand point just hauling our little trailer behind our EV I think it’s better to stop more often and charge more often. The charge rates are higher in the bottom 2/3 of the battery than the top 1/3. So maybe it’s better to stop every 3 hours for 15 minutes.

For the kind of medium duty truck that would haul our big RV fifth wheels the numbers might be different. They have smaller batteries and will probably charge faster, maybe, who knows. It’s hard to find that info on then.

But good to see those who want them will have a place to charge. I wonder if Loves will be next.

Safe travels in the new year all.

[wildtoad]

As one of, if not the largest fuel company in the USA, I expect Pilot to aggressively provide support for electric trucks and cars. It matters not how many chargers they install, it won’t be enough unless charging times come way down.

[wildtoad]

Slavery has existed for thousands of years (and sadly exists to day), yet people still go to see the pyramids, and the other “wonders of the world”. We buy trillions of dollars worth of goods from our enemy China much of it built with slave labor, yet we still buy their stuff. I’m ok with folks not buying a product or component there of on moral grounds, but be consistent. Check the labels and don’t buy from countries that use slave labor, or are our enemies.