Help with hitch / tongue weight

[rhetthughes]

Hello All! I'm in the early stages of camper shopping (wanting to upgrade) and I would love some help understanding the tongue weight limits. I have read on 1000 different sites that the max tongue weight of the tow vehicle includes the weight of the trailer hitch plus "the total weight of the cargo behind the rear axle of the two vehicle." What exactly is that cargo referring to? Is that the weight of the cargo in the bed of my truck behind the rear axle? The weight of the cargo in the underneath storage at the front of my camper (which is technically weight behind the rear axle of my tow vehicle)? Or is it a combination of the two? I have a 2014 F150 with max tow package and a 1120 max hitch / tongue weight. I also have a 12,000 lb Equalizer WD hitch. A lot of the campers I have really liked are in the neighborhood of 900 lb hitch weight. So that is cutting it close and I want to know if I am ok there? I appreciate any wisdom you wish to pass along! Thank you!

[mkirsch]

If you measure your truck's front ride height empty, then pile a bunch of weight in the back of the bed, hitch up the trailer, and dial in the WD back to empty ride height, THEN the cargo in the bed would be counted as "tongue weight."

This is because you are using the WD bars to compensate for the front end rise caused by both the weight in the extreme rear of the bed AND the tongue weight.

Except, that's not the way you're supposed to do it!!!

You load up the truck FIRST, then measure the front ride height. Hitch up the trailer and dial in the WD bars to bring the truck back to where it was loaded but NOT hitched!

If you do it correctly, the WD bars will not be seeing any more stress if you have nothing in the bed, or if you have 2000lbs of bagged concrete up against the tailgate.

You CAN use the WD bars to distribute some of the weight from the bed, and of course you have to compensate for that with heavier bars. HOWEVER, that is not typical.

[LarryJM]

Walaby wrote:
Yeah, probably 1/10th of 1 percent was a bit of an exaggeration. Point is though, if people set up with their TV and TT loaded as they intend to camp, it will be covered. If they are so close that adding a cooler in the back after setup makes them worried, time for a new truck.

If my wife had her way, I'd find a truck I could stick a Fiat 500 in the bed... I'd have to accommodate that too.

Mike

But the counter point that I think is even more important is that everyone should at least BE AWARE and I'm an example, the gent with the RAZR might be another and IDoMyOwnStunts apparantly is a third just in this one thread where this issue might need to investigated and some resolution found.

Your thought of having your truck loaded as they intend to camp is fine, but is it real that every single person when they are setting up their WDH has they wife all the kiddos, all the firewood they will EVER TAKE, the bikes not jet bought, and the two generators I mentioned that they will discover they need after that first trip there. While it's sort of the way you read things the information I linked to from CEQUENT I feel is meant to cover situations where one is carrying cargo that was not covered when their WDH was originally setup or they know might vary trip to trip.

I will say that in reality this issue probably won't really effect the vast majority of folks, but the real issue was the mistaken concept that the tongue wt as seen by the WDH system and IMO also the receiver is not just limited to what you might measure the tongue wt. on a Sherline scale, it can be hundred of lbs more in certain cases. THATS THE REAL POINT and what caused all the initial discussion here, not whether the weights were significant or not.

Finally, your comment about the cooler and new truck demonstrates I feel where many are missing the point. This is not about payload, what a truck can carry, etc. It's about buying and sizing the correct WDH system and IMO by extension staying under the tongue wt. limitations of your receiver. These are basically truck independent so the issue is valid on your F-450 just as much as your F-150 except the receiver on the F-450 would hopefully be higher rated than the F-150.

Larry

[Walaby]

Yeah, probably 1/10th of 1 percent was a bit of an exaggeration. Point is though, if people set up with their TV and TT loaded as they intend to camp, it will be covered. If they are so close that adding a cooler in the back after setup makes them worried, time for a new truck.

If my wife had her way, I'd find a truck I could stick a Fiat 500 in the bed... I'd have to accommodate that too.

Mike

[IDoMyOwnStunts]

Walaby wrote:

mkirsch wrote:
Unless you're talking about thousands of pounds in the bed aft of the truck's rear axle, you're splitting hairs here guys.

In Larry's case, it appears he is talking about 1000's of pounds in the back aft of his van. I suspect he is in the 1/10th of 1 percent.

Mike

The person (I forget who) who was thinking of towing with a Rzr in the bed would need to consider it.

[LarryJM]

mkirsch,

I think you've missed the whole point of all this and it's not about changing your WDH settings or changes in the vehicle attitude with respect to say wheel well clearances, it about properly sizing your WDH system to account for any temporary or transient cargo added aft of the rear axle AFTER YOU HAVE SETUP YOUR WDH SYSTEM. If you read and accept what CEQUENT recommends this cargo added aft of the TV axle is added to the trailer tongue weight w/o any adjustment so if your normal tongue wt is say 1000lbs and you add 200 then your new weight that should be used for WDH system sizing would be 1200lbs which is a 20 percent increase which IMO is not insignificant. Furthermore, it's not about how much this additional wt. might change the actual wheel well heights, it's about sizing your WDH system to effectively counter and redistribute the correct maximum wt. that it is subject to.It's no different than replacing your 6K receiver with a 10K one, it's about capacities and having the correctly installed equip to do the job. IMO adding this "ADDITIONAL CARGO" will by definition have a small effect on the visible attitude of say the TV as it sets and that's as it should be since you are adding it with the WDH already adjusted for a previous loading scenario. I guess one could try and make up situations/numbers/scenarios to try and artifically reduce this effect, but the WHOLE POINT is the concept is still a VALID CONCERN and the position that it has NO EFFECT that was put forth by multiple folks in this thread alone is SIMPLY NOT CORRECT as I feel I have shown, demonstrated and given as clear examples of as I can think of.

IGNORE IT IF YOU WANT, just don't say it's fairy dust or it isn't a valid concept/potential concern for consideration. If it doesn't apply to you, you don't have to do it or even worry about it, but if it does it is and should be a valid consideration just as including that drawbar wt. (less than 100lbs in the majority of cases) in ones TV payload calculations that is universally recommended. One could use the same faulty logic and say it doesn't really matter whether you include the drawbar wt in any calculations since it's weight is minor and won't change anything much. It's either CORRECT or INCORRECT with little to no GREY AREAS concept wise.

I just thought of another case that I have seen on here and that is the folks that carry a pair of EU2000 generators right at the rear of their truck bed at times often in nifty enclosures to use when their trips are to locations where they might need this generator capacity. That example right there is another example of the type of "CARGO ADDED" that could easily be 100lbs or more and would constitute close to a 10 percent increase in WDH capacities for a unadjusted previous tongue wt of say 1000lbs. IMO one has to be careful since just like items loaded in a trailer, one item might not break the bank, but it's the multiple items that all of a sudden become important.


Larry

[Walaby]

mkirsch wrote:
Unless you're talking about thousands of pounds in the bed aft of the truck's rear axle, you're splitting hairs here guys.

In Larry's case, it appears he is talking about 1000's of pounds in the back aft of his van. I suspect he is in the 1/10th of 1 percent.

Mike

[mkirsch]

Unless you're talking about thousands of pounds in the bed aft of the truck's rear axle, you're splitting hairs here guys.

The reality is that any realistic amount of weight in the truck bed is not going to change the front ride height enough to affect your WD hitch settings.

A couple of bikes, a few sticks of firewood, a cooler of drinks... None of that or even all of that is not going to visibly "squat" your truck unless you have some extremely soft springs... Besides you'd have to work hard to get it all crammed in aft of the rear axle.

[LarryJM]

IDoMyOwnStunts wrote:
The TV rear axle is the fulcrum (pivot point). The entire truck is the lever. The WD system is the upward force applied to that lever behind the rear axle. The weight of cargo behind the rear axle AND the weight of the tongue of the trailer both apply downward forces behind the rear axle. Thus the WD system must apply enough upward force to counter both the weight of the trailer tongue AND the weight of the cargo behind the axle in order to restore weight to the front wheels.

The place where it gets complicated is that you actually have two levers, the other one with the fulcrum at the travel trailer wheels. However, the purpose of the WD system is the same. It is an upward force against that lever and that force still must act against the total downward force applied by both the trailer weight forward of the axles (the tongue) and the cargo behind the rear axle of the TV.

Ok, so why does the receiver rating need to take into consideration the weight of any cargo behind the rear axles? Because it needs to be sized to cope with the counter force applied by the WD system back through the receiver. Even though the WD system may take some weight off the ball, the full force of that WD system is still transmitting through the receiver back to the truck (minus the weight transferred back to the travel trailer tires).

Think about this. If you did not have any trailer hooked up and you loaded cargo behind the rear axle, that will take weight off the front axle. This is simple lever physics. The truck is a seesaw that wants to pivot on that rear wheel. Too much force on the back side of the truck will lift the front wheels off the ground. And weight is a force. Only, in this case, you have no means to restore weight to the front axle other than moving the cargo.

So, the bottom line is that if you want to restore all of the weight taken off the front wheels when you hook up your trailer, you must size and adjust your WD system to account for cargo behind the rear wheels. If you do not, you simply will not restore all of the weight back to the front wheels or you may overload your current system trying to restore that weight. Does it matter? That is entirely up to you. As for me, I felt the need to upgrade my receiver.

Thanks for reading.

Edit to add: Yes, I realize that the springs from the truck and trailer suspension provide upward force as well. That still doesn't change the pivot points nor the forces on the receiver/WD system.

THANK YOU, you have summed up what I've been trying to get across and I agree with everything you have said. For some reason I wrongly assumed that providing what I thought were very VALID and AUTHORTATIVE quotes would clarify things, but for some reason did not.

I would just add that in one of my original posts I tried to acknowledge that just how significant this cargo was to increasing what CEQUENT classifies as "HITCH WEIGHT" because it's position relative to the rear axle of the TV and the hitch head can vary and I believe this has an impact on the actual amount of increase in "HITCH WEIGHT" is realized. I can only WAG that this is basically ignored since assuming all the weight is added is the safest position and in 99.9% of the cases will not cause one to really over specify the sizing of the WDH components. In that document from CEQUENT I linked to has a chart for WDH bar ranges vs this "HITCH WEIGHT", but of course that opens the previous "CAN OF WORMS" about some that feel even using bars rated at just what the actual trailer tongue weighs is overkill and not required.

Finally, as I have said I'm probably a little more sensitive to this since my cargo aft of the axle VARIES by hundreds of lbs even during a trip or between trips and that is why I call the cargo "TEMPORARY" and included with pics the 4 fuel cans, generator, tool box, etc that are sometimes carried empty or full with that varying during a road trip between towing days as an example of this "CARGO ADDED" that I was talking about. Conversely, even with my somewhat unique setup I have significant weight (probably close to 1,000 lbs) between the rear of my Van and the rear axle on my Van that is fairly fixed because of the secure storage area that I built along with the sofa-bed and all the tools/parts, etc. that remain there all the time. This weight is "NOT TEMPORARY" and does not need to be accounted for as this "weight" is included in the normal "LOADED" configuration of my Van, is always there, and already accounted for when the WDH was originally setup and adjusted. Of course by the same token one should adjust their WDH with full fuel, and ensure removable items such as spare tires that are normally on the vehicle are all in place since those IMO are really not cargo as CEQUENT is talking about, but a normal loaded condition of the TV. Regardless, the concept and validity of accounting for this "added cargo" weight to the "HITCH WEIGHT" is still valid IMO and should at least be acknowledged and included where applicable. For one to say it has no effect is IMO incorrect. I think this is why CEQUENT specifically says the weight is "CARGO ADDED" where added is the operative word meaning its after the WDH has been set up for what would be considered a normal "loaded" vehicle configuration and even goes as far as trying to include such what I would classify as transient items such as "gas cans, tools, boat motors, etc" in their classification as types of "cargo added" they are talking about. This would also include say extra baggage and even passengers in the very rear seats of say a large SUV that might be there on some trips, but not others. It could also include those 10 cases of beer stored at the rear of say an SUV for that once a year lake campout, beer party for the office, etc. Another example might be taking a golf cart in the bed of a pickup on some trips, but not others unless one would want to go thru the entire WDH setup routine, adjustment, road testing, etc. every time such "added cargo" like a golf cart was or was not there.

Larry

[IDoMyOwnStunts]

Ron Gratz wrote:

IDoMyOwnStunts wrote:
The TV rear axle is the fulcrum (pivot point). The entire truck is the lever. The WD system is the upward force applied to that lever behind the rear axle. The weight of cargo behind the rear axle AND the weight of the tongue of the trailer both apply downward forces behind the rear axle. Thus the WD system must apply enough upward force to counter both the weight of the trailer tongue AND the weight of the cargo behind the axle in order to restore weight to the front wheels.

Thanks for joining this discussion.

I agree with your statements. However, there is no consensus on how much load needs to be restored to the front axle. And, there is no agreement on whether it is necessary to restore any of the load which is removed due to TV cargo weight.

For example, Progress Mfg was the first WDH manufacturer to adopt the Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) approach for adjustment of the Equal-I-zer WDH.
The Equal-I-zer Instructions state:

Step 1 - Set up Location:
Before installing the hitch, the tow vehicle and trailer should be loaded just as they will be while traveling. This includes full propane and fresh water tanks, and any other cargo the tow vehicle (passengers & gear) or trailer will carry, including ATVs for toy haulers. Tow vehicle “auto-level” systems should also be disabled or turned off temporarily. Park the trailer and tow vehicle on level ground and in line with each other. Chock and uncouple the trailer. Pull tow vehicle ahead about 5 feet to allow working area and set the parking brake.
Take the initial setup measurements for the tow vehicle by measuring from the ground to the top of the wheel wells directly above both the front and back axles of the tow vehicle. See figure 18. Record these on line A of the Weight Distribution Adjustments tables in Step 6.

Subsequent instructions state that, when the TT is hitched, the WD should be adjusted to eliminate 50-100% of the front-end rise due to tongue weight only.

Recently-revised instructions for Reese WDHs state:

INITIAL HOOK UP NOTE: Car and trailer should be loaded and ready for travel before final leveling.
1. Pick reference points on front wheel well. Measure and record distance to pavement.
Front wheel well to pavement ___________________

For proper adjustment of the WFH, Reese goes on to state:

Re-measure front wheel well reference point. The front wheel well height should be equal to the original measurement.

For both Equal-I-zer and Reese, the current WDH adjustment specifications are based on the front end load/height changes due to tongue weight only. The WDH adjustment does not compensate for TV cargo weight.

Ron

Thanks. I do see what you are saying. If I have it right, then using those methods described above, you would not be compensating for cargo behind the rear axle because you are preloading the vehicle as you would when camping, then taking the measurements. I just checked and my Ford manual says pretty much the same thing:

When hooking-up a trailer using a weight-distributing hitch, always use
the following procedure:
1. Park the loaded vehicle, without the trailer, on a level surface.
2. Measure the height to the top of your vehicle’s front wheel opening
on the fender. This is H1.
3. Securely attach the loaded trailer to your vehicle without the
weight-distributing bars connected.
4. Measure the height to the top of your vehicle’s front wheel opening
on the fender a second time. This is H2.
5. Install and adjust the tension in the weight-distributing bars so that
the height of your vehicle’s front wheel opening on the fender is
approximately halfway between H1 and H2.
6. Check that the trailer is level or slightly nose down toward your
vehicle. If not, adjust the ball height accordingly and repeat
Steps 2–6.

So, if I follow the manufacturer's recommendation to the letter, I will not be compensating for cargo behind the rear axle since it says "loaded vehicle". Interesting.

[Ron_Gratz]

IDoMyOwnStunts wrote:
The TV rear axle is the fulcrum (pivot point). The entire truck is the lever. The WD system is the upward force applied to that lever behind the rear axle. The weight of cargo behind the rear axle AND the weight of the tongue of the trailer both apply downward forces behind the rear axle. Thus the WD system must apply enough upward force to counter both the weight of the trailer tongue AND the weight of the cargo behind the axle in order to restore weight to the front wheels.

Thanks for joining this discussion.

I agree with your statements. However, there is no consensus on how much load needs to be restored to the front axle. And, there is no agreement on whether it is necessary to restore any of the load which is removed due to TV cargo weight.

For example, Progress Mfg was the first WDH manufacturer to adopt the Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) approach for adjustment of the Equal-I-zer WDH.
The Equal-I-zer Instructions state:

Step 1 - Set up Location:
Before installing the hitch, the tow vehicle and trailer should be loaded just as they will be while traveling. This includes full propane and fresh water tanks, and any other cargo the tow vehicle (passengers & gear) or trailer will carry, including ATVs for toy haulers. Tow vehicle “auto-level” systems should also be disabled or turned off temporarily. Park the trailer and tow vehicle on level ground and in line with each other. Chock and uncouple the trailer. Pull tow vehicle ahead about 5 feet to allow working area and set the parking brake.
Take the initial setup measurements for the tow vehicle by measuring from the ground to the top of the wheel wells directly above both the front and back axles of the tow vehicle. See figure 18. Record these on line A of the Weight Distribution Adjustments tables in Step 6.

Subsequent instructions state that, when the TT is hitched, the WD should be adjusted to eliminate 50-100% of the front-end rise due to tongue weight only.

Recently-revised instructions for Reese WDHs state:

INITIAL HOOK UP NOTE: Car and trailer should be loaded and ready for travel before final leveling.
1. Pick reference points on front wheel well. Measure and record distance to pavement.
Front wheel well to pavement ___________________

For proper adjustment of the WFH, Reese goes on to state:

Re-measure front wheel well reference point. The front wheel well height should be equal to the original measurement.

For both Equal-I-zer and Reese, the current WDH adjustment specifications are based on the front end load/height changes due to tongue weight only. The WDH adjustment does not compensate for TV cargo weight.

Ron

[IDoMyOwnStunts]

The TV rear axle is the fulcrum (pivot point). The entire truck is the lever. The WD system is the upward force applied to that lever behind the rear axle. The weight of cargo behind the rear axle AND the weight of the tongue of the trailer both apply downward forces behind the rear axle. Thus the WD system must apply enough upward force to counter both the weight of the trailer tongue AND the weight of the cargo behind the axle in order to restore weight to the front wheels.

The place where it gets complicated is that you actually have two levers, the other one with the fulcrum at the travel trailer wheels. However, the purpose of the WD system is the same. It is an upward force against that lever and that force still must act against the total downward force applied by both the trailer weight forward of the axles (the tongue) and the cargo behind the rear axle of the TV.

Ok, so why does the receiver rating need to take into consideration the weight of any cargo behind the rear axles? Because it needs to be sized to cope with the counter force applied by the WD system back through the receiver. Even though the WD system may take some weight off the ball, the full force of that WD system is still transmitting through the receiver back to the truck (minus the weight transferred back to the travel trailer tires).

Think about this. If you did not have any trailer hooked up and you loaded cargo behind the rear axle, that will take weight off the front axle. This is simple lever physics. The truck is a seesaw that wants to pivot on that rear wheel. Too much force on the back side of the truck will lift the front wheels off the ground. And weight is a force. Only, in this case, you have no means to restore weight to the front axle other than moving the cargo.

So, the bottom line is that if you want to restore all of the weight taken off the front wheels when you hook up your trailer, you must size and adjust your WD system to account for cargo behind the rear wheels. If you do not, you simply will not restore all of the weight back to the front wheels or you may overload your current system trying to restore that weight. Does it matter? That is entirely up to you. As for me, I felt the need to upgrade my receiver.

Thanks for reading.

Edit to add: Yes, I realize that the springs from the truck and trailer suspension provide upward force as well. That still doesn't change the pivot points nor the forces on the receiver/WD system.

[Walaby]

Larry

You're really gonna make my head explode. For newbies reading this, it is NOT this complicated. Tongue weight is the weight placed directly on the hitch ball. Yes, setup your WD hitch with your truck configured/loaded ready to camp. That will make sure your level and have your weight properly distributed as you intend to travel. If you are so close on your margins that you can't put a cooler in the back, then you're probably ready for a truck upgrade. Make sure you have enough margin in your GVWR so if you stop for a Big Mac, you can eat it while driving....

OOps, wait, I might have just started a totally separate argument about eating and driving while towing.

[BarneyS]

If I see one more personal remark against another member this thread will be history
Barney

[lbrjet]

No need for yelling Larry. i know your position: you said it so it must be right. If you choose to distribute the aft axle weight in the bed go right ahead, but it is not necessary or required.

[CampingN_C_]

Man I miss threads like this! We just don't get good discussions like this on here anymore.
Newbies...read up!