Help with hitch / tongue weight

[rhetthughes]

Hello All! I'm in the early stages of camper shopping (wanting to upgrade) and I would love some help understanding the tongue weight limits. I have read on 1000 different sites that the max tongue weight of the tow vehicle includes the weight of the trailer hitch plus "the total weight of the cargo behind the rear axle of the two vehicle." What exactly is that cargo referring to? Is that the weight of the cargo in the bed of my truck behind the rear axle? The weight of the cargo in the underneath storage at the front of my camper (which is technically weight behind the rear axle of my tow vehicle)? Or is it a combination of the two? I have a 2014 F150 with max tow package and a 1120 max hitch / tongue weight. I also have a 12,000 lb Equalizer WD hitch. A lot of the campers I have really liked are in the neighborhood of 900 lb hitch weight. So that is cutting it close and I want to know if I am ok there? I appreciate any wisdom you wish to pass along! Thank you!

[BarneyS]

Time to let this one go. Six pages is plenty to get the answer done.
Barney

[LarryJM]

Ron Gratz wrote:

LarryJM wrote:
I will say that in reality this issue probably won't really effect the vast majority of folks, but the real issue was the mistaken concept that the tongue wt as seen by the WDH system and IMO also the receiver is not just limited to what you might measure the tongue wt. on a Sherline scale, it can be hundred of lbs more in certain cases. THATS THE REAL POINT and what caused all the initial discussion here, not whether the weights were significant or not.

Okay, let's discuss the "real issue".

Can you define what you mean by "the tongue wt as seen by the WDH" and "the tongue wt as seen by the receiver"?

This might remove the possible confusion of having three different definitions of "tongue wt".

Ron

"tongue wt as seen by the WDH" is simply the CEQUENT definition of Hitch Wt. and is used for sizing the WDH system.

For "the tongue wt. as seen by the receiver" that is simply what Cequent calls and provides the formula for on pg D-16 of their catalog as "the hitch weight formula for determining the load
which the hitch must carry:"

BTW those terms were used way back in this thread (fives of my posts previous to this one) in more of a qualitative response to another post and were not meant to specifically define any actual quantity and that is why I used the term "CONCEPT" as part of the lead in.

What you are IMO still doing is nitpicking or selectively "cherry picking" various terminology used in more of a qualitative reply more to illustrate some point than to try and be absolutely technically correct as a stand alone statement like your questions which IMO took them out of context in which they were made. This last post where I talked about payload calculations, etc. are I believe the correct quantative level description of what the various terms are and how they IMO should be used and not something I said five post ago to another poster in response to something he/she might have said.

I sort of wish you would stay with the current conversation and not insert something like this last quote of mine that was made many posts previously and are not contextually correct or even germane to the current conversation and the immediate prior post or two. If you are trying to attack my consistency I might have to plead the 5th since I try and respond to what I quote is sort of the same level of specificity so that person might get or understand what I'm trying to get across. Doing this post "previous post cherry picking" only confuses what is currently being discussed further and muddies up the water, but maybe that is your intent, but I would hope not.

In the final analysis I'm happy and content with the way CEQUENT has defined things and have no problem with what they choose to call them since it's their document and they IMO have explained them so at least I'm not confused, understand and agree with them. I might choose to call them something slightly different, but just like you defined some of these terms I tired to do likewise where I felt it was important and germane to what was currently being discussed.

Larry

[Ron_Gratz]

LarryJM wrote:
I will say that in reality this issue probably won't really effect the vast majority of folks, but the real issue was the mistaken concept that the tongue wt as seen by the WDH system and IMO also the receiver is not just limited to what you might measure the tongue wt. on a Sherline scale, it can be hundred of lbs more in certain cases. THATS THE REAL POINT and what caused all the initial discussion here, not whether the weights were significant or not.

Okay, let's discuss the "real issue".

Can you define what you mean by "the tongue wt as seen by the WDH" and "the tongue wt as seen by the receiver"?

This might remove the possible confusion of having three different definitions of "tongue wt".

Ron

[Ron_Gratz]

mkirsch wrote:
You load up the truck FIRST, then measure the front ride height. Hitch up the trailer and dial in the WD bars to bring the truck back to where it was loaded but NOT hitched!

I fully agree. Your statement is consistent with the following WDH-adjustment for Equal-I-zer and Reese hitches and also for Ford and Chevrolet/GMC vehicles (except for specific load restoration values).

For example, Progress Mfg was the first WDH manufacturer to adopt the Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) approach for adjustment of the Equal-I-zer WDH.
The Equal-I-zer Instructions state:

Step 1 - Set up Location:
Before installing the hitch, the tow vehicle and trailer should be loaded just as they will be while traveling. This includes full propane and fresh water tanks, and any other cargo the tow vehicle (passengers & gear) or trailer will carry, including ATVs for toy haulers. Tow vehicle “auto-level” systems should also be disabled or turned off temporarily. Park the trailer and tow vehicle on level ground and in line with each other. Chock and uncouple the trailer. Pull tow vehicle ahead about 5 feet to allow working area and set the parking brake.
Take the initial setup measurements for the tow vehicle by measuring from the ground to the top of the wheel wells directly above both the front and back axles of the tow vehicle. See figure 18. Record these on line A of the Weight Distribution Adjustments tables in Step 6.

Subsequent instructions state that, when the TT is hitched, the WD should be adjusted to eliminate 50-100% of the front-end rise due to tongue weight only.

Recently-revised instructions for Reese WDHs state:

INITIAL HOOK UP NOTE: Car and trailer should be loaded and ready for travel before final leveling.
1. Pick reference points on front wheel well. Measure and record distance to pavement.
Front wheel well to pavement ___________________

For proper adjustment of the WFH, Reese goes on to state:

Re-measure front wheel well reference point. The front wheel well height should be equal to the original measurement.

For both Equal-I-zer and Reese, the current WDH adjustment specifications are based on the front end load/height changes due to tongue weight only. The WDH adjustment does not compensate for TV cargo weight.

The current Ford F-150 Owners Manual states:
"

When hooking-up a trailer using a weight-distributing hitch, always use the following procedure:
1. Park the loaded vehicle, without the trailer, on a level surface.
2. Measure the height to the top of your vehicle’s front wheel opening
on the fender. This is H1.
3. Securely attach the loaded trailer to your vehicle without the weight-distributing bars connected.
4. Measure the height to the top of your vehicle’s front wheel opening
on the fender a second time. This is H2.
5. Install and adjust the tension in the weight-distributing bars so that the height of your vehicle’s front wheel opening on the fender is
approximately halfway between H1 and H2.
6. Check that the trailer is level or slightly nose down toward your
vehicle. If not, adjust the ball height accordingly and repeat Steps 2–6.

"

The Silverado Owners Manual states:
"

When using a weight-distributing hitch, measure distance (1) before coupling the trailer to the hitch ball. Measure the height again after the trailer is coupled and adjust the spring bars so the distance (1) is as close as possible to halfway between the two measurements.

"

Note: None of these major WDH and TV manufacturers say you should measure the reference heights with an empty TV and then load the TV and adjust the WDH to return the front of the TV to its empty height.
It boils down to whether you want to follow the above instructions or follow opinions of etrailer salespersons and verbiage from a Cequent sales catalog which conflicts with installation instructions for Cequent products.

Ron

[LarryJM]

Ron Gratz wrote:
"TONGUE WEIGHT", "HITCH LOAD", "RECEIVER LOAD" CONFUSION -- TOO MANY "DEFINITIONS"

This thread, "Help with hitch / tongue weight", has been plagued with a failure to communicate a clear understanding of what key terms, such as "tongue weight" actually mean.
Perhaps we could have more meaningful (and more civil) discussions of "hitch weight" and "tongue weight" and other technical terms if we had a single and agreed definition for each of them.

A good example of possible sources of such confusion can be found in Determining Trailer Tongue Weight.
The presentation begins with:
"In order to select the correct components to safely tow your trailer, you need to know its tongue weight. This is the weight that the fully loaded trailer exerts downward on the hitch ball of the tow vehicle. If you don't know the tongue weight of your trailer, there are several different ways you can determine it."

They then show a diagram which defines "tongue weight" as being the difference between tow vehicle GVW when hitched with WD applied MINUS the tow vehicle GVW when loaded with trailer not attached.
This is incorrect because the TV's hitched GVW must be measured when WD is NOT applied.
Finally, they introduce a new relationship, A - B + C = "Tongue Weight for Weight Distribution System".

To add to the confusion, we also have the statement from a Cequent sales catalog:

"SELECTING THE RIGHT WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM
The hitch weight formula for determining the load which the hitch must carry:
HITCH WEIGHT* = TONGUE WEIGHT + VEHICLE CARGO LOAD BEHIND REAR AXLE
Tongue weight includes the trailer tongue weight with full gas, water and waste systems and everything packed inside the trailer.
Vehicle cargo includes all materials carried in your tow vehicle, such as boat motors, gas cans, tools, etc."

This Cequent catalog instruction seems to define "HITCH WEIGHT" similar to the way etrailer defines "Tongue Weight for Weight Distribution System".
This is incorrect usage of "hitch weight" or "hitch load",
Hitch Load does not include the weight of vehicle cargo load behind the tow vehicle's rear axle.

Perhaps it also would help to have a single agreed definition for "hitch weight" or preferably "hitch load".
And while we're at it, let's have a proper definition for "receiver load".

I believe the following definitions would help to eliminate much of the confusion which has plagued this thread:

Tongue Weight The load exerted by the coupler on the ball with the trailer loaded and level, and with no load distribution applied.

Hitch Load The net load exerted on the hitch head by the coupler and WD bars.
(Note: Hitch Load is equal to Tongue Weight with no load distribution applied. Hitch Load is equal to Tongue Weight minus load transferred to TT's axles when load distribution is applied.)

Receiver Load The load exerted on the receiver by the hitch.
(Note: Receiver Load is equal to Hitch Weight plus the weight of the WDH.)

Ron

Won't try and quibble over some of the definitions since IMO there is not much confusion if one understands what is trying to be conveyed. Several general comments:

1. You describe the Cequent catalog as a "SALES CATALOG" which IMO does the same thing you are objecting to in the use of the various tongue wt., hitch wt. etc. terms. The item is actually a "PRODUCT CATALOG" which has NO PRICES, but has things like matching say a hitch and or receiver to a specfic model tow vehicle (i.e. application guides to model numbers, etc.), sizing various components one being the WDH systems of which is directly germane to this discussion. Thus to me it's not selling anything and as such NOT A MARKETING TOOL, but it's sole purpose is to assist one in selecting and sizing the correct item based on needs w/o regard to price.

2. If one takes a too narrow view of tongue wt. and doesn't understand what it really means then I guess one could get confused and that is one thing I tried in one of my very first posts in this thread to acknowledge and tried to differentiate what is normally classified as tongue wt. as being "dead tongue wt" like is measured by a Sherline scale. Issue is things like a receivers only shows tongue wt. specs in a weight carrying and in a weight distribution mode which in one the tongue wt. does only equal what I call "dead tongue wt." (i.e. in the WC mode) whereas tongue wt. IMO (this might be subject to some disagreement, but I see no way to prove one position or the other) equals the "dead tongue wt." plus this cargo added behind the rear TV axle and which CEQUENT has called "HITCH WEIGHT" for the reciever tongue wt (i.e. in the WDH mode). Thus simply trying to create some universal tongue wt. definition will run afoul of how equip is labeled now and will probably never change. Receivers will still call it tongue wt. and WDH systems will still mostly still call it tongue wt. I think a better solution is to simply explain as I thought as I have tried in this thread to explain what each is composed of in the context in which it's used. Thus tongue wt. means different things such as.

1. For a trailer by itself it is the weight of the ball coupler when placed on a device such as a Sherline scale.

2. For payload calculations it is the same as 1 above that is added to the TV weight in a weight carrying configuration.

3. For a trailer and TV combo with a WDH then it is 1 above PLUS any cargo added to the rear of the TV rear axle that was not present when the WDH was adjusted and setup.

4. For payload calculations for a trailer and TV combo with a WDH it is 1 plus any cargo added after the WDH has been adjusted and setup MINUS the increase in the load on the TT axles over it's base line trailer only wt. This means as is generally know that the full amount of the "dead tongue wt" does not all show up on the GW of the TV, but also any cargo added aft of the rear axle a portion of that that shows up as additional wt. on the TT axles is not then carried by the TV. This is a real touchy/feelee area and is probably in 99.99 percent of the cases this reduction in the amount of the added cargo that is actually carried by the TV can be ignored.

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I don't see it every getting any sort of universal acceptance and in the end I feel the best solution is to educate folks that tongue wt. is not necessarily a fixed number which in reality it isn't since it can vary as a function of trailer loading, but can also vary as a function of TV loading when in a WDH configuration. This is IMO the most consistent method of treating this tongue wt. so it's properly accounted for and used w/o mucking around with individual equipment descriptions.

One final comment is your statment that the etrailer method of determining tongue wt from scale measurements was incorrect. However if you look at the diagrams there is what appears to be a WDH system on the trailer tongue, but it's not in play since when the trailer is unhooked the WDH bars are still on the trailer. I have a feeling none of these wts. were for any WDH being actually hooked up during the various weigh ins. Someone drew them in on the trailer, but all these wt. were in a WC configuration only w/o the WDH disconnected and as such were in fact CORRECT. I do agree they should not have even been shown since they could be a source of confusion.

Larry

[Ron_Gratz]

"TONGUE WEIGHT", "HITCH LOAD", "RECEIVER LOAD" CONFUSION -- TOO MANY "DEFINITIONS"

This thread, "Help with hitch / tongue weight", has been plagued with a failure to communicate a clear understanding of what key terms, such as "tongue weight" actually mean.
Perhaps we could have more meaningful (and more civil) discussions of "hitch weight" and "tongue weight" and other technical terms if we had a single and agreed definition for each of them.

A good example of possible sources of such confusion can be found in Determining Trailer Tongue Weight.
The presentation begins with:
"In order to select the correct components to safely tow your trailer, you need to know its tongue weight. This is the weight that the fully loaded trailer exerts downward on the hitch ball of the tow vehicle. If you don't know the tongue weight of your trailer, there are several different ways you can determine it."

They then show a diagram which defines "tongue weight" as being the difference between tow vehicle GVW when hitched with WD applied MINUS the tow vehicle GVW when loaded with trailer not attached.
This is incorrect because the TV's hitched GVW must be measured when WD is NOT applied.
Finally, they introduce a new relationship, A - B + C = "Tongue Weight for Weight Distribution System".

To add to the confusion, we also have the statement from a Cequent sales catalog:

"SELECTING THE RIGHT WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM
The hitch weight formula for determining the load which the hitch must carry:
HITCH WEIGHT* = TONGUE WEIGHT + VEHICLE CARGO LOAD BEHIND REAR AXLE
Tongue weight includes the trailer tongue weight with full gas, water and waste systems and everything packed inside the trailer.
Vehicle cargo includes all materials carried in your tow vehicle, such as boat motors, gas cans, tools, etc."

This Cequent catalog instruction seems to define "HITCH WEIGHT" similar to the way etrailer defines "Tongue Weight for Weight Distribution System".
This is incorrect usage of "hitch weight" or "hitch load",
Hitch Load does not include the weight of vehicle cargo load behind the tow vehicle's rear axle.

Perhaps it also would help to have a single agreed definition for "hitch weight" or preferably "hitch load".
And while we're at it, let's have a proper definition for "receiver load".

I believe the following definitions would help to eliminate much of the confusion which has plagued this thread:

Tongue Weight The load exerted by the coupler on the ball with the trailer loaded and level, and with no load distribution applied.

Hitch Load The net load exerted on the hitch head by the coupler and WD bars.
(Note: Hitch Load is equal to Tongue Weight with no load distribution applied. Hitch Load is equal to Tongue Weight minus load transferred to TT's axles when load distribution is applied.)

Receiver Load The load exerted on the receiver by the hitch.
(Note: Receiver Load is equal to Hitch Weight plus the weight of the WDH.)

Ron

[LarryJM]

lbrjet wrote:
You are wrong Larry. To properly set up hitch you load your truck for travel. Make your measurements or take weights. Dropping the tongue on the truck removes weight from the front axle, you restore the missing weight with the WDH and you are done. The weight aft the axle is still there. You ignored my statement earlier saying according to your theory the weight of the spare tire, bumper and tailgate would be tongue weight (since they are all aft the axle). You just choose to not respond to statements that don't fit your theory. I guess if I removed my spare tire from below the bed and placed it in the bed instead then it would magically become tongue weight. right?

Nope not WRONG you just missed the post where I specifically covered such items as the spare, bumper, etc. of items that are always there and clearly stated that they are NOT CARGO ADDED and what we are talking about is any cargo that IS ADDED AFTER YOU SET UP YOUR WDH. I gave some specific examples of this in just the fuel containers that are often empty at the start of a towing trip, filled at the first fuel stop and then used up within a day or two. THIS IS THE CARGO ADDED that CEQUENT says if aft of the rear axle should be added to the normal trailer tongue wt. for sizing of your WDH components so this temporary cargo is properly accounted for in sizing your WDH system.

I'm not wrong I just think your not reading what I've written or choosing to ignore what I'm saying. Just you bringing back up this dead issue of things like the spare, the bumper, etc. proves this not reading what has already been discussed.

This really is the last time I think I need to keep going over this same stuff with you since it's just getting more chaff in an already long and some what confusing thread.

For the record look back at my post on 02/14/16 01:28pm to prove where I covered this nonsense about the spare, bumper, etc. that you tried to use as improper examples of what we were discussing. This alone along with this post just proves how far off in the weeds you are here in this discussion and not listening to what has already been discussed.

Larry

[LarryJM]

odis wrote:
Not to hijack the tread but...I'm the guy with the razor in the truck bed.
If my WDH was set up before I had the razor ( I hauled 2 dirt bikes before in bed of truck) with my camper in tow. Will it still be set up adding the razor to the bed? The truck does not squat with the 1150 extra #'s.i have not hooked the camper up yet.
Also if I go to a cat scale will they tell me axle weights?
Thanks
Jim

This is not my thread so I can't speak for the OP and IMO because of what I believe is a wide spread misunderstanding by a lot of folks about what we are really talking about with this "CARGO ADDED aft of the rear axle of the TV" I would caution you in believing w/o some sort of third party confirmation.

First thing I would do is get a complete set of weights w/o the RZR loaded which will give you your true trailer only tongue wt. and how much weight is redistributed to the trailer and TV axles when the WDH is engaged/hooked up. Then I think I would get a set of wts with the RZR loaded and the WDH engaged. I would then compare the amount of wt transferred to the trailer axles with and w/o the RZR in the bed and use a ratio for w/o try and guessimate what adjusted tongue wt. would give the new TT axle wt. added with the RZR loaded. I would then assess how this new "ADJUSTED TONGUE WT." might effect the current WDH system specs.

I'm sure there might be more accurate ways to do this, but I can't think of them right off hand, but maybe someone else might have some other good ideas on how to proceed with this.

As long as I didn't exceed the tongue wt ratings for either the WDH bars, or receiver by more than like 100lbs using this new "ADJUSTED TONGUE WT." then I wouldn't probably worry about it. If much over then I might consider doing something different. Of course as a last resort you could always set up your WDH sys with the RZR loaded, but then you need to initially assess if loading the RZR itself unloads the front axle on your TV too much weight wise. It's not all about heights, but it's the weight especially on the steer axle that is the critical parameter and even with just the RZR that could become an issue even w/o hooking up a trailer.

Good Luck and let us know maybe in a new thread how you proceeded and what you found out.

Larry

[lbrjet]

You are wrong Larry. To properly set up hitch you load your truck for travel. Make your measurements or take weights. Dropping the tongue on the truck removes weight from the front axle, you restore the missing weight with the WDH and you are done. The weight aft the axle is still there. You ignored my statement earlier saying according to your theory the weight of the spare tire, bumper and tailgate would be tongue weight (since they are all aft the axle). You just choose to not respond to statements that don't fit your theory. I guess if I removed my spare tire from below the bed and placed it in the bed instead then it would magically become tongue weight. right?

[odis]

Thanks Walaby,
I will have to go to the scales. I was thinking I may have to back the razor in the truck to have the engine in front of the axle but I'm not sure. My truck has GVWR 11,500 ,payload 4090,GVWR 25,300,max trailer 17,420. 2013 Ram 3500, SRW, CTD ,reg cab, long bed.
Jim

[Walaby]

odis wrote:
Not to hijack the tread but...I'm the guy with the razor in the truck bed.
If my WDH was set up before I had the razor ( I hauled 2 dirt bikes before in bed of truck) with my camper in tow. Will it still be set up adding the razor to the bed? The truck does not squat with the 1150 extra #'s.i have not hooked the camper up yet.
Also if I go to a cat scale will they tell me axle weights?
Thanks
Jim

Cat scale will tell axle weights, as long as each axle is on it's own scale.

If I understand it all, the WDH hitch will still be distributing the weight it was distributing BEFORE you put the razor in the bed. That part would be unchanged. The question (or debate), is whether or not the razor is adding weight that actually needs to be distributed. I understand you saying it does not squat with the razor added, but there is/will be increased weight on the rear axle (obviously). Not knowing your RGAWR, I would be concerned/want to make sure I didn't exceed that RGAWR with the combination of the razor and the WD hitch setup as you have it now.

Understand the razor may not make it squat now, but the combination of the razor, and the tongue weight from your trailer might.

If you subscribe to the theory that weight behind the rear axle has to be distributed (which Im not necessarily in that camp), then you would also have to figure out a way to determine how much of that razor weight is behind the axle. Don't know how you could do that accurately.

I am of the mindset that the tongue weight is the weight placed directly on the hitch, and that is the weight I need to distribute. The remaining weight is cargo weight, that still factors against my GVWR of the truck, but Im not necessarily distributing. BUT, having said that, other than a couple bikes, and a cooler, I don't carry anything in the bed. And anything I do carry is forward of the rear axle.

Mike

[LarryJM]

lbrjet wrote:
Yep. Makes a lot of sense for Cequent to say 'use the wieght' in determining hitch size (so they can sell you a more expensive hitch) and then say to not distribute the weight with your new super duper hitch. The instructions say there is no need to distribute that weight (which is correct), but yet they want to sell you the more expensive hitch anyway. As I said before, it is just a marketing effort to get more money out of your pocket.

You are still not understanding this and trying to rationalize this as some sort of marketing ploy which I'm not sure any logical explaination will change your opinion and I think that's all it is YOUR OPINION and as far as I can tell pure speculation on your part with no factual basis. This weight added aft of the axle after you have initally set up your WDH is in fact redistributed to both the TT axles and to the front axles of the TV. Maybe not in the same ratios as the trailer only tongue wt. but it is weight that has to be acted upon by the WDH bars and that's why it effects the bar sizing of your WDH system. Of even more concern at least to me is that if it effects the weight sizing of the WDH bars that are based on this hitch weight as it called by CEQUENT then by extension I believe it would increase the "TONGUE WT." capacity limits for WD mode on the TV receiver itself which can only be changed if at all by changing your receiver to a higher rated one.

I'm not sure any amount of facts will change your opinion which I think is basically close minded and impervious to rational reasoning and I'm thru trying in your case which I will put in the "LOST BIN" so to speak. Please don't take this as a personal attack since it's not given as such, but is just how I see your position IN MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION.

Larry

[odis]

Not to hijack the tread but...I'm the guy with the razor in the truck bed.
If my WDH was set up before I had the razor ( I hauled 2 dirt bikes before in bed of truck) with my camper in tow. Will it still be set up adding the razor to the bed? The truck does not squat with the 1150 extra #'s.i have not hooked the camper up yet.
Also if I go to a cat scale will they tell me axle weights?
Thanks
Jim

[lbrjet]

Yep. Makes a lot of sense for Cequent to say 'use the wieght' in determining hitch size (so they can sell you a more expensive hitch) and then say to not distribute the weight with your new super duper hitch. The instructions say there is no need to distribute that weight (which is correct), but yet they want to sell you the more expensive hitch anyway. As I said before, it is just a marketing effort to get more money out of your pocket.