Manufacturers - How Do You Answer This

[Dave_Pete]

This is one aspect of why I am leery of an aluminum framed camper, not to mention a newer, expensive camper. Of course the extremely poor quality craftsmanship could be duplicated in a wood-framed camper, but at least notice the weld quality. And what is it with the pinched cable?

http://forums.goodsamclub.com/Index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27573424.cfm

The OP calls it an AF; I have to assume he means Arctic Fox. Wolf Creek (one of my close choices for a camper)claims it is built on the same assembly line as the Arctic Fox. Maybe by the same welding crew? Assembly crew? And I am considering a Wolf Creek why?

I am sure many wise and conscientious TC buyers visit the Arctic Fox/Wolf Creek factory prior to a purchase, JUST TO AVOID BUYING A PIECE OF CR$P LIKE THIS! And I am sure they get the red-carpet treatment. So how do manufacturers do it? Take you on a fantasy field trip, show actual workers doing such fine work, and then once you leave the building, quality falls apart. How do they do it? Why do they do it? Arctic Fox is one of the most expensive campers out there! Wolf Creek, being somewhat less expensive must REALLY suck!

And every manufacturer must answer to this sort of accusation. Why don't we TC buyers (and other RVs) demand some sort of digital picture build history of our individual camper? Perhaps there's a way of proving pictures belong to our actual unit.

Oh I know, such labor intensive assembly would add several thousand dollars to our out the door price and we consumers won't stand for it. As if the multiple tens of thousands we spend already isn't enough to expect good work.

That 1960's wood-framed and nicely birch-wood paneled TC I found on Craigslist for $500 is looking much nicer to me this morning.

Manufacturers - how do you answer this?

[Dave_Pete]

So as fate would have it we decided against a new camper. When we saw the vintage camper ad on Craigslist we felt that familiar fondness we had when we camped in our old 1950's canned ham trailers. The birch wood paneling, the quality construction, the simpler feel of a simpler time.

The first one we bought (10.5') needed some work, but we were willing. Then we found the smaller 8.5' in excellent shape and drove 1000 miles to buy it for $700. We'll do a resto-mod. Keep it's character, it's charm, but add in the things they didn't have back then.

Even with the first purchase (which hence-forth shall be referred to as "the parts camper") also at $700, we have $1400 invested, plus gas and travel expenses. Next comes the gut job (appliances, tanks, etc.) then the woodwork refinishing. Follow that with new appliance retro-fit, new tanks and lines and wiring where needed.

Even with a 8.5' length at 7.5' wide and almost as short as a larger modern pop-up on highway (no basement), but about 6'3" inside, we'll have a wet bath with large porti-potti for black water needs and I can carve out a 30 gallon fresh water tank with an 18 gallon grey water. Looks like I'll get two batteries, probably group 27, and two vertical 20lb propane tanks. The configuration competes well with both the Wolfcreek 840 and the Northstar 8.5 Arrow, our two new campers choices we had weedled it down to.

Yes, there's some work involved, but pricing things out I'm thinking we'll get about $6500-$10,000 max for an awesome little camper that fits the majority of our needs; keeps us smaller and more nimble, all the creature comforts we want, and ability to tow the Willys Jeep or the boat.

If interested, follow our resto-mod in future weeks and months by finding subject lines including "Travel Queen". Here's out 1968 8.5' Travel Queen. With a restore and modification, built with owner quality, maybe this little girl will see another 46 years!

[2012Coleman]

All I can say is Bring on the imports! I'll be looking closely.

[Dave_Pete]

A couple of days ago I received an email from a local RV dealer trying to answer my original "email to manufacturers" about quality in building RVs. This dealer said they had received email forwards from two of the manufacturers on my original list. Thereby showing action now from 6 of the 9 who were emailed.

One of those two had already responded to me directly, the other had not. The one that had not, apparently felt a dealer could provide better assistance than they could, or probably more accurately, that the dealer should be the one wasting time responding to me as a potential customer, not the high and mighty manufacturer.

Not only did the dealer respond with the "expected" reply - which felt sincere enough, but was a bit of a scolding about expecting perfection in my new purchase - but the reply was from the "Finance Manager".

When I was in "Business Communication with Customers - 101" many years ago, I seem to recall one particular lesson that said something like "salesmen and finance managers are trained in particular skills and should not be the ones to provide answers to a customer about quality of product issues". But that was a long time ago and I am getting a little older and don't exactly remember things as clearly as I once did.

At any rate, I felt the manufacturer who depended on the dealer for full response just shows I don't want to buy anything from that brand. The other one was not TOO bad an answer originally and indicated an additional concern for my satisfaction by answering first, then forwarding to the dealer ALSO! That is one manufacturer I would probably deal with (and is one of the two on my short list).

To date then I haven't heard from 3 of the 9. But one of those was already quoted in this thread as believing there is a problem in the industry, and ALSO said at one point somewhere in my research, something like "I don't know how much bigger we can get and still provide a quality product. Not everyone can have a ******* camper". If I want that brand, it may well be the roles are reversed and I must now "sell" myself to them as their customer. It is that sort of manufacturer who probably puts out a quality product (and indeed they are the other on my short list).

I believe the "Manufacturer Reply" trail has gone cold. I will now end my updates.

I have reduced my short list to two companies. Some of this is based on reply/response or other quoting found within my research, but to a great extent, these two choices are based more on me actually learning as much as I can about their products and the individual needs I have regarding such things as size, weight, maneuverability, size of tanks, available options, etc.

This has been a fun exercise. I have learned a lot, and not just about various products, manufacturers, etc. but some interesting education about some of YOU!

Yes, it is those of you I refer to who may well come back with a reply saying "we have learned a lot about you too!" to which I will only say 🙂

Thanks for all the activity on this thread. It took a number of turns along the way huh?

Cheers

[Bumpyroad]

free radical wrote:

run100 wrote:
As capriracer and others have mentioned, quality starts with management (although I would go one step further and say it starts with the owners - whether private party or shareholders). Quality is a long term commitment that may result in lower profits in the short run, but should lead to higher sales and profits in the long run. That is where the problem lies with American companies.

The drive for profits and immediate results (especially in publicly traded firms) can create short sightedness and pressure on management to produce numbers without regard to the long-term impact. Japanese auto manufacturers beat us by having an absolute commitment to quality and continuous improvement.

Japanese have an unbelievable work ethics..
enjoy
http://youtu.be/WXBcbUc-3ZQ

http://youtu.be/zSH4KWg-dXY

http://youtu.be/5Ms5q6D7V6c

the one about the fellas herding cars to the pumps is sort of Like New Jersey where law forbids you from filling your own gas tank.
so I guess we could conclude that New Jerseyites have an unbelievable work ethic.

bumpy

[free_radical]

run100 wrote:
As capriracer and others have mentioned, quality starts with management (although I would go one step further and say it starts with the owners - whether private party or shareholders). Quality is a long term commitment that may result in lower profits in the short run, but should lead to higher sales and profits in the long run. That is where the problem lies with American companies.

The drive for profits and immediate results (especially in publicly traded firms) can create short sightedness and pressure on management to produce numbers without regard to the long-term impact. Japanese auto manufacturers beat us by having an absolute commitment to quality and continuous improvement.

Japanese have an unbelievable work ethics..
enjoy
http://youtu.be/WXBcbUc-3ZQ

http://youtu.be/zSH4KWg-dXY

http://youtu.be/5Ms5q6D7V6c

[travelnutz]

I'll bring the bread and mayo!


Dave Pete, info for you in the "Truck Camper" section... stickbowjoe thread

[Dave_Pete]

And some RVs are BEEFY. So all together they are beefy cheesy. Now that's something we can sink our teeth into!

[travelnutz]

Naaaa, I'd rather have cheese from the Midwest's contented cows!

[ol_Bombero-JC]

rjxj wrote:
Unbelievable. I always tell people that RV's are cheesy and I'm more convinced of it all the time. I look at some units and think to myself, $30,000? $30,000? I would puke every time I looked at this thing and remembered that I paid that much for it.
RV = CHEESY

Off topic - but considering your comments and attitude...

WHY are you on these forums??..:R..:R

Stick with motels & hotels, and cheese from Tillamook, Oregon..:S

BTW - don't let the lid on the "thunder mug" hit you in the head while you're "taking inventory" (puking).

.

[run100]

As capriracer and others have mentioned, quality starts with management (although I would go one step further and say it starts with the owners - whether private party or shareholders). Quality is a long term commitment that may result in lower profits in the short run, but should lead to higher sales and profits in the long run. That is where the problem lies with American companies.

The drive for profits and immediate results (especially in publicly traded firms) can create short sightedness and pressure on management to produce numbers without regard to the long-term impact. Japanese auto manufacturers beat us by having an absolute commitment to quality and continuous improvement.

[westend]

Thanks again, Dave. Mr. Rose's reply seems sincere and it was good to see that quality is not forgotten by at least one mfg..

[Bumpyroad]

don rose's response was exactly what I expected them to write back, totally ineffective and meaningless double talk IMHO.
bumpy

[Dave_Pete]

I received Manufacturer reply 5 out of 9 today. This time Don from Chalet. I got Don's approval to post his reply here. What follows is his reply to my original email and my reply to him. He followed up with approval and a statement that this is something he feels very strongly about.



From: Don Rose don.rose@chaletrv.com
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:15 PM
To: Dave Pete
Subject: Re: Chalet - Product Quality Inquiry

Dave,

Thank you for your email and interest in Chalet. I read the forum thread with great interest and frankly agree with it.

The quality control is not what it should be in the RV industry. I am amazed that some dealers and consumers have the attitude that defects are normal and acceptable in a new RV. I tell people all the time that when you buy a new car you expect it to be perfect. You have should have the same expectation when you buy a new RV. You are paying for a new product and it should be new and in perfect condition. Anything less is unacceptable.

We are obsessed with quality control at Chalet RV. I worked in the nuclear power industry where quality control was almost a religion and we have installed that same belief here.


Don L Rose
Chalet RV
don.rose@chaletrv.com
(631) 463-8850

Thanks for your reply Don.

I truly appreciate the acknowledgement of an industry problem. I was beginning to think only a few others and I expect results out of a traditionally awesome American workforce and the people above them. I think I understand why corners get cut, and I realize there is not just one reason, but quite a number of causes, just as one cannot put blame for all of the world’s ills on one group of politics, on one generation, on one set of principles or ideology.

Your email comes across as sincere. Some might say you read through the thread and found my contributions and just gave me what I was after, just so you could sell me a camper. And maybe you did! But your email response felt sincere to me and I accept it as such.

Don, I am sorry to report, I included your company in my campaign before realizing you do not make a camper in the smaller sizes I’m looking for. If I ever upgrade my truck to a one ton or larger dually and decide to go primarily pavement, I will definitely consider your product. However, there may be others looking for a camper such as those built by Chalet who could benefit from your response to me. With your approval, I’d like to post your message, including your name and contact info, along with my reply to you, into the referred to forum thread. Please respond yeah or nay.

Sincerely,
Dave Pete

[Bumpyroad]

CapriRacer wrote:
Relative to quality and how it relates to American manufacturers:

IMHO, the bulk of criticism about quality has to rest with management. It's management that decides what materials are going to be used. It's management that decides the design. It's management that decides the rate at which something is produced. It's management that decides whether to respond to criticisms or not. They have total control of the things that result in good quality - or not.

have you forgotten who mgt. answers to? the stock holders. the firm must not only sell the product but must sell it at a profit (unless Uncle Santa will bail them out).
bumpy

[CapriRacer]

Relative to quality and how it relates to American manufacturers:

IMHO, the bulk of criticism about quality has to rest with management. It's management that decides what materials are going to be used. It's management that decides the design. It's management that decides the rate at which something is produced. It's management that decides whether to respond to criticisms or not. They have total control of the things that result in good quality - or not.

But I have a slightly different take on the Japanese in the 1970's. I think they went the "quality" route: a) Because they really, really had quality problems, and b) Because it was a way to differentiate their products from others.

It might seem a bit racist, but the Japanese were not noted for their innovation - and their products reflected that. In the 1960's the term "Japanese" meant poor quality, cheaply made, uninspiring products. They had to do something. We now look at China in much the same way - poor quality, cheaply made, uninspiring products.

There also seems to be critical mass sort of thing where the competition either goes out of business or gets absorbed, bought, merged, etc. What is left is a few very good manufacturers who compete - as opposed to a large number of manufacturers each with their own niche.

Remember Studebaker? Or Packard? How about Nash, Hudson? These were competitors for Ford and GM.

They talk about the "Big 3", but #3 isn't so big and isn't so healthy.

And, Yes! Our expectations have changed dramatically. We now expect to buy a product and have no issues at all. We expect to use it in all sorts of ways, and we expect the manufacturer to have designed out every possible hazard. And we expect it to be inexpensive.

The US market is one of the largest and most difficult markets to penetrate - but if one does successfully, it can be quite profitable.