New Andersen WD hitch

[JBarca]

A fellow camper bud showed me this. It's new and different.

Anyone using one?

Andersen WD hitches

A U-tube video with the factory guy explaining it. You have to get past MR Truck doing his intro. Interesting 5th wheel hitch too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvM7mCnqmwo&feature=related

It looks like this



I'll hold my comments for a short while to not cloud your thoughts. Ideally we can find someone here using one to quiz them on it.

John

[BenK]

shakyjay wrote:
snip....

I for one am going to be very interested to watch and see how it performs over time in real world applicatiions. That is the only real test that matters. Hopefully they can get enough out there to accomplish this. Personally I can't afford to go out buy something like this just to see how it works. Now if they need a tester and are looking for someone to give one to and report back I could do that. 😉 🙂 :B

When designing stuff for small firms, yes this boils down to something
like the after the best minds of the company & consultants finished
reviewing and our limited in-house testing.

But for larger firms. There are things like computer simulations AFTER
the above reviews. Then there are test in-house and outside firms who
specialize in that kind of testing. Also blind testing with a control
set.

Heck, with the power of computer simulation and their extremely reasonable
costing...most any small firm can have some level of computer
simulation. Most CAD programs has some level of finite analysis capcity

CDR's (critical design review) should be numerous and act as gates to
release to production. Many times or that they should include their customer(s)

Today's bean counter managed firms short change the above and use
the public as test mules.

Even then, there are potential scenario's that are rare and not found
during simulations/testing but out here in the public realm. This is
where 'ratings' comes into play. Both to address these potentials
and to meet regulatory agency requirements

This design is elegant, but there are potential issues that we have
brought up...so far. Maturation of the design is whats going on here
and should have been with them...inside the OEM...or...this is an
indication of the depth of their talent/knowledge/etc

PS...I don't know much about 5th wheel hitches, but in viewing their
video...like that they think outside the box for their new version
of Fiver hitches.

[shakyjay]

I am certain that all the weight distribution and anti-sway products that are in use today have had their naysayers at the outset. It's only natural when we see something new to question it. There really is nothing wrong with that, to a point. Eventually though what one needs to do is go get real answers to those questions and not rely on speculation. Whether it works or not I applaud the company for their innovation.

Personally I think it is a very interesting concept. I can see from the explanations in all the links and videos how it is designed to work. I for one am going to be very interested to watch and see how it performs over time in real world applicatiions. That is the only real test that matters. Hopefully they can get enough out there to accomplish this. Personally I can't afford to go out buy something like this just to see how it works. Now if they need a tester and are looking for someone to give one to and report back I could do that. 😉 🙂 :B

[carringb]

'68Monaco440HP wrote:
Just don't be confused by one person's persistent insistence that the chain linkage cannot prevent the ball coupler from pivoting on the ball.

Ron

This, then, is a statement that it is impossible for the trailer to move independently of the ball.

Well last I checked chain is pretty inelastic. Especially once you pre-load it it with 3,000 pounds of tension. It's not really an issue of possibility. It's an issue of which force is going to win. I'll put my money on the tension in the chains.

[Slowmover]

Just don't be confused by one person's persistent insistence that the chain linkage cannot prevent the ball coupler from pivoting on the ball.

Ron

This, then, is a statement that it is impossible for the trailer to move independently of the ball.

[red31]

Would this system be less stressful on the trailer's a-frame members?

[JBarca]

Ron Gratz wrote:

Mkos1980 wrote:
Heres a nice post from another site which explains some more.
Anderson Hitch post

Even more discussion can be found at

FOREST RIVER FORUMS -- Andersen Hitches

Just don't be confused by one person's persistent insistence that the chain linkage cannot prevent the ball coupler from pivoting on the ball.

Ron

Ron,

Thanks for the link. Seems the discussion is on ongoing on the FR forum. They have not yet did a deep dive into the mechanics of hitch.

We have one issue here that the group on RV.net discovered and maybe you can shed your opinion on this.

Recapping this much we have sorted out.

• We understand the high friction of the anti sway feature. Similar concept as the hitch in Europe I linked to.
  
  
• We understand how it has the ability to distribute weight. How effective it is and sensitive it is is another question.
  
  
• We have determined that the tow ball will be forced into the coupler latch under high force during WD. We question if the latch can handle this high force long term.
  

Now to the unknown part. This one is going to take some figuring for sure. You saw my estimates on the chain loads for a given tongue weight, on a certain TV WB, TV overhang and ball to TT distance. They may be off some but I feel they are in the ball park (I think...) I used your excel sheet on WD to determine the WD chain loads. LOL

From the Andersen WD chain loads it is going to be mixture of forces acting on the chains along with which direction they act on the tow ball, TT ball coupler front and the TT ball coupler rear safety latch.

Chains towing the camper When the TV is stopped or rolling forward at low speed, the chains are pulling the camper. The chain force is high enough that is it pulling the camper forward and seating the tow ball into the latch side of the ball coupler. Clearance exists between the ball sphere and the front part of the coupler that normally pulls the camper. The rolling resistance of the camper on the 28.3" OD tires on concrete or black top is less then the chain force under these conditions.


Tow ball towing the camper There may be a point where the wind drag on the front of the camper or up hill (gravity) loads increase enough that the TT drag is higher then the WD tension in the chains. In this case the TT would shift backwards by the clearance in the coupler when the wind drag force overcomes the WD chain force. The tow ball leaves the coupler latch and now becomes seated into the front part of the ball coupler. The TT is now pulled by the ball coupler.

There are other upsets that shift force direction on the tow ball depending on if the ball coupler front portion is pulling the camper or the WD chains. That is if the wind drag was large enough to cause a shift in the 1st place. Some concern areas are:

• When the TV slows down from high speed, the forces may shift back to the coupler latch and the chains start towing the camper. .
  
  
• A large bump by the rear TV axle creates a large impact and can increase chain tension. It depends on which force is greater as to if the WD chains are pulling the camper or the ball coupler.
  
  
• At high speed when the brakes are applied, if the brake controller leads the truck as many set their controllers, the TT drag will increase and there will be a new point where the chains start towing the camper once again.

What we do not know yet, is on a 1,400# TT tongue weight, 9,200# GVW TT does the wind drag or up hill drag ever get high enough to let the ball coupler tow the camper? And any guesstimate on what speed that may be? I picked those weights only because they line up with my camper. The issue can occur under other TV and TT combos as well.

The high load on the coupler saftey latch is a large concern. If the TT seats and reseats back and forth constantly as you tow down the road, the fatigue on the coupler saftey latch is something to think through.

Do you have any thoughts on this and do you see this the same as some of us do?

Thanks

John

Edited: 1-22-12 Tweaked words to better get certain points across

[Ron_Gratz]

Mkos1980 wrote:
Heres a nice post from another site which explains some more.
Anderson Hitch post

Even more discussion can be found at

FOREST RIVER FORUMS -- Andersen Hitches

Just don't be confused by one person's persistent insistence that the chain linkage cannot prevent the ball coupler from pivoting on the ball.

Ron

[clueless_camper]

JBarca wrote:

LAdams wrote:
John, why don't you pick one of these hitches up and it can be our "Leonardo" experiment this year :W :B

Les

OK Les, we can use my truck and your camper... And you fill your fresh water tank sitting right behind the frame header too. That should give a good 1,400# TW test. :B :W

I still cannot believe Skyline out that tank right there... What where they thinking...

:B

[JBarca]

LAdams wrote:
John, why don't you pick one of these hitches up and it can be our "Leonardo" experiment this year :W :B

Les

OK Les, we can use my truck and your camper... And you fill your fresh water tank sitting right behind the frame header too. That should give a good 1,400# TW test. :B :W

I still cannot believe Skyline put that tank right there... What where they thinking...

[jerem0621]

Part of me wants to buy one and try it out. Another part of me wants to "wait and see". After all, it is only my family's safety at stake.

But, I do like new technology and the prospect of significant weight savings over a conventional wd hitch and sway bars should appeal to any half ton tower like myself, especially with payload at a premium.

Then again, somebody probably said that they wanted to wait and see how that "new fangled" Prodigy worked out before they replaced their old fashioned time based controller.

If I buy one I will report a real world towing report.

Thanks,

Jeremiah

[LAdams]

John, why don't you pick one of these hitches up and it can be our "Leonardo" experiment this year :W :B

Les

[ktmrfs]

JBarca wrote:
Is anyone an expert in patent searching?

This is claimed to have patent right on the Motion Dampening feature. I have looked and found a bunch of hitch stuff and even some by Andersen Mfg, just not this one.

If we can find the patent it may shed some light on the thought process behind the design.

Anyone with any hints on finding it?

Did a quick PTO search on "Anderson Hitch" as a patent Assignee, nothing showed up as an issued patent. The actual inventor(s) must be listed on the application, but unless you know the inventor your pretty much out of luck. The other patent list is applications filed more than 1 year ago and not issued or denied. Problem with searching that data base is the "assignee" isn't searchable for obvious reasons. (Makes it harder for competition to know what others are doing). What we used to do is search on the most known engineers at other companies along with the patent agents name we knew from previous patents. Not knowing any of that, the open patents list didn't give me any hits either.

it wouldn't suprise me if they have applied for a patent, but it hasn't issued yet given the time it usually takes to get a patent issued. if one was issued, they MUST list the patent number on the item in order to protect. The quickest patent I ever got was issued about 3 years after application, the longest took almost 7 years. My last patent was submitted in May 2006 and was finally issued in November 2011.

[BenK]

Just in from outside and it's 'cold' here...42"F and 'we' out here in the West Coast
think that is very cold ! I did snow ski/hike/camp and know what it
is like to be in -20*F with +35MPH winds

More later or tomorrow, but here is the USA patent office site:
USA Patent office

Not a good place to look up things and this site is the HOW2 site
Using the United States Patent Office Website as a Research Resource

or this one

download full issued patents and patent applications for FREE

I've had better luck with either google.com or yahoo.com

Not always in the name you think it is.

I invented many and have patents. Most are in the companies worked
for and/or sold the rights to others. So they are named for the
company and/or the guys who did the work (rules of the patent office
is to have it in the inventors name, but I sold that right off)

Look for Diamond Foam and you'll see my name on some of them. There
are several dozen more being noodled, but lack the $$$ to file and PTC
even more expensive 😞

[JBarca]

Is anyone an expert in patent searching?

This is claimed to have patent right on the Motion Dampening feature. I have looked and found a bunch of hitch stuff and even some by Andersen Mfg, just not this one.

If we can find the patent it may shed some light on the thought process behind the design.

Anyone with any hints on finding it?

[JBarca]

BarneyS wrote:

BenK wrote:
PS...a very fun thread for me...love this type of discussion and
would be fun to see what other types of cool tools John has...
on another thread expected John to pull out a granite table... 🙂

If I remember correctly, he did exactly that at one of our camp outs a couple of years ago. Ask John or Les about the "DiVinci" experiment! :B
Barney

LOL....well if I had one of these hitches here it would be fun to go experiment with and report back. I found one on sale for $449, we all chip in I'll get one and report back. Just need to wait for some heat. It was 10 degrees out today...