Safety

[Jim2007]

Hi All.. Maybe it is just me but I am getting concerned about our personal safety at camp grounds. Should a camper carry a weapon(gun)in the camper? Currently I do not. Jim2007

[Cloud_Dancer]

IMO In order to give examples of individuals and groups that should "start taking responsibility for their lives and actions" we will need to go to another forum (political).
On subject, I don't even like to talk about how I handle and manage firearms.

[Walaby]

lakeside013104 wrote:

am1958 wrote:

People need to start taking responsibility for their lives and actions.

I choose the above line to quote you on.

Your statement is so powerful that it goes beyond the scope of what the average person can comprehend. If people WOULD take responsibility and accountability for their actions / lives, blue collar, white collar or no collar, this great nation of ours would be so much better off than it is today. You have made a goal for every individual to focus on.

Just imagine the impact of your statement if folks took it to heart.

Thanks am1958 for your forward thinking insight.

Lakeside

And I think this is a great and fitting comment that sums up pretty much everything.

Mike

[lakeside013104]

am1958 wrote:

People need to start taking responsibility for their lives and actions.

I choose the above line to quote you on.

Your statement is so powerful that it goes beyond the scope of what the average person can comprehend. If people WOULD take responsibility and accountability for their actions / lives, blue collar, white collar or no collar, this great nation of ours would be so much better off than it is today. You have made a goal for every individual to focus on.

Just imagine the impact of your statement if folks took it to heart.

Thanks am1958 for your forward thinking insight.

Lakeside

[Cummins12V98]

doc brown wrote:
Rhagfo, I know that facility well just south of Pahrump. I've been going there for 9 years (31 courses to date). I started going to get the training necessary to have confidence and an understanding of the consequences of using a gun in a defensive situation. You can never have enough training. Not everyone that trains wants to carry, they just want to be competent with their weapon.

Can't wait, will be going there in May.

[WTP-GC]

RPreeb wrote:


My point was that I, and most people with basic CC licenses, simply don't have the level of training and experience to make life and death decisions in the short time that will usually be available.

...I can whack someone with a baseball bat, and except in rare circumstances, he will live to go to jail, and no bystanders are at risk from anything I do with the bat.

You're in the mall with your wife (or children), peacefully waiting in line at the coffee shop in the food court as you're preparing to order your lowfat mocha soy latte with cinnamon shavings, when in walks a bad guy intent on shooting up the place. Assuming you weren't one of the first ones taken out, you immediately duck for cover underneath the closest table. The bad guy is looking for more people to shoot. Naturally you're unarmed because of your latent fear of guns in the hands of the public. Fortunately, there's an armed civilian next to you who can take out the bad guy before he continues on his shooting spree. Unfortunately, the armed civilian is contemplating whether or not he has "the level of training and experience to make life and death decisions in the short time" he has available or whether or not a Joe Citizen like him as the ability to make an accurate shot. Too late...

But good thing you chose a baseball bat instead, which you had to leave in the car because it can't be concealed and the mall has strict rules about possessing weapons. (Those signs must not have been on the door the bad guy used).

Point is, when danger is present, you're always going to seek refuge from someone who has the potential to help you. At that moment, you'll not be concerned about whether or not some of the untrained amateur's shots miss the target...as long the threat is suppressed.

[DiskDoctr]

RPreeb wrote:
My decision making processes are just fine, thank you.

Good, glad to hear it. I figured there was a pretty good chance you were exaggerating to make your point...but on the internet? I have a relative with Parkinson's. HE wouldn't be a good candidate for daily carry most days.

My point was that I, and most people with basic CC licenses, simply don't have the level of training and experience to make life and death decisions in the short time that will usually be available.

Why not? You are your own man, WHO do you want making those decisions for you? Most people are not the poor, helpless, sacrificial lambs that the media portrays.

We make life and death decisions every day. Cross the street here? Pull out into traffic now, or wait for that truck to stop- regardless of light being red or green, avoid that bad part of town, etc.

But I'm not prepared to take the chance that I'd be the one to miss my target and hit someone minding his own business a block away.

Do you drive? By the same logic, you wouldn't want to be the one who swerves to miss a kid in the street and causes the family in the minivan to run off the road and crash into an innocent bystander at the bus stop - all because you swerved left 6 inches too far. There really is a limit to Fear and how likely a series of increasingly UN-likely events are going to all take place together.

Otherwise, why even leave the house?

I don't think I'd have any psychological problems with taking down a bad guy in a him or me situation - regrets yes

THAT is a good statement. Here is an event that just took place, with that same sentiment: Hate that boy dead but don't hate I shot him

Even trained LEO's miss more than they hit in a gunfight. Any Joe Citizen who thinks he's going to do better is not facing the realities of the situation.

You really don't have any basis for making that assumption. *This* "Joe Citizen" used to train officers in marksmanship and shoot/no-shoot scenarios, even designing scenarios and providing grading and discussions about their performance, all over the US.

Even beyond that, LEOs have to contend with use of force and power of arrest/preventing escape. Joe Citizen only has to worry about stopping the threat to protect himself and others.

It is "interesting" to participate in Use of Force Training with LEOs. Many of the Q&A responses are, "Yes, you can do that, but understand you are putting yourself at risk of legal action"

Many of the returns are, "I *will* go home to my family at the end of the day"

Similar to "Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

As I mentioned earlier, there is a LOT more depth to this subject than the "Pro vs Anti" arguments that are based mostly on rhetoric and even hate.

But it isn't in the best interest of the political and business interests for the average Citizen to THINK for themselves. I wish more people would 😉

Carry or don't carry, your choice. I won't force anyone to do one or the other. But just because it isn't the choice of SOME people, doesn't mean EVERYONE ELSE has to make the SAME choice.

Pretty simple, actually 😉

[doc_brown]

Rhagfo, I know that facility well just south of Pahrump. I've been going there for 9 years (31 courses to date). I started going to get the training necessary to have confidence and an understanding of the consequences of using a gun in a defensive situation. You can never have enough training. Not everyone that trains wants to carry, they just want to be competent with their weapon.

[rhagfo]

RPreeb wrote:

DiskDoctr wrote:

RPreeb wrote:
I wouldn't trust myself to make a good split second decision in the heat of the moment, and If I can't trust myself, I'm certainly not going to have much faith in the ability of a random stranger to know how to act responsibly in an emergency just because he sat through a CC class.

That is a very personal decision. Just understand that your lack of personal judgement also applies to a stick, baseball bat, a cell phone, or even a motor vehicle. What would you do in an accident? (Not a slam against you, I know folks who surrendered their drivers' license and agree with their reasons. Not to worry, we drive them around)

Secondly, YOUR lack of decision making ability in no way impacts anyone else's ability or trustworthiness. The two simply do not correlate.

Now if you were just exaggerating to make a point... 😉

Otherwise, you are one of the people in society who needs to be protected. If you can't do it for yourself (and there are valid reasons for some folks to be in this situation), just be thankful there are police officers, firemen, military, and Good Samaritans 😉

Appreciate those who stand up when others cannot. I sure salute them.

My decision making processes are just fine, thank you.

My point was that I, and most people with basic CC licenses, simply don't have the level of training and experience to make life and death decisions in the short time that will usually be available. Even well trained police officers make tragic mistakes, and as has been seen too often lately, not necessarily when actually under fire.

I can whack someone with a baseball bat, and except in rare circumstances, he will live to go to jail, and no bystanders are at risk from anything I do with the bat. Is a bat a total replacement for a real weapon.... not at all. But I'm not prepared to take the chance that I'd be the one to miss my target and hit someone minding his own business a block away.

I don't think I'd have any psychological problems with taking down a bad guy in a him or me situation - regrets yes, but better than the alternative. But if I injured an innocent person because of my rash act, that is an issue that I'm not prepared to risk.

The chance that I might ever need a gun anywhere is minuscule, and the chances of hurting someone other than the bad guy is smaller yet, but I'll take the safer road. Even trained LEO's miss more than they hit in a gunfight. Any Joe Citizen who thinks he's going to do better is not facing the realities of the situation.

Well as a carrier of a CCP, I will say DW and I didn't take the easy way, we attended a full four day live fire defensive hand gun course. The course is held near Las Vegas. This not only safe handling of the fire arm, but also class time on the ramifications of using your fire arm. As RPreeb relates to you are responsible for EVERY round that leaves your gun, you best know what is beyond your target if you miss. Using your firearm is a life chaing event right, wrong, or indifferent!!

One interesting part of the course is the live fire simulated clearing of a house. This is done with an instructor attached to you with a Carabiner attached to your belt center back. Still paper targets, the good and the bad, talk about something that will get your Adrenalin up!!!

[Cummins12V98]

Cloud Dancer wrote:
However, on page 10 of the NRA magazine (every month), you can read about many good guy vs bad guy encounters. It will surprise you how many good guys aim and hit the bad guys.

My favorite part "The Armed Citizen" is an article of stories from local newspapers stating what went down. Some tough ol gals that defended their selves and many more great stories.

[Cloud_Dancer]

However, on page 10 of the NRA magazine (every month), you can read about many good guy vs bad guy encounters. It will surprise you how many good guys aim and hit the bad guys.

[RPreeb]

DiskDoctr wrote:

RPreeb wrote:
I wouldn't trust myself to make a good split second decision in the heat of the moment, and If I can't trust myself, I'm certainly not going to have much faith in the ability of a random stranger to know how to act responsibly in an emergency just because he sat through a CC class.

That is a very personal decision. Just understand that your lack of personal judgement also applies to a stick, baseball bat, a cell phone, or even a motor vehicle. What would you do in an accident? (Not a slam against you, I know folks who surrendered their drivers' license and agree with their reasons. Not to worry, we drive them around)

Secondly, YOUR lack of decision making ability in no way impacts anyone else's ability or trustworthiness. The two simply do not correlate.

Now if you were just exaggerating to make a point... 😉

Otherwise, you are one of the people in society who needs to be protected. If you can't do it for yourself (and there are valid reasons for some folks to be in this situation), just be thankful there are police officers, firemen, military, and Good Samaritans 😉

Appreciate those who stand up when others cannot. I sure salute them.

My decision making processes are just fine, thank you.

My point was that I, and most people with basic CC licenses, simply don't have the level of training and experience to make life and death decisions in the short time that will usually be available. Even well trained police officers make tragic mistakes, and as has been seen too often lately, not necessarily when actually under fire.

I can whack someone with a baseball bat, and except in rare circumstances, he will live to go to jail, and no bystanders are at risk from anything I do with the bat. Is a bat a total replacement for a real weapon.... not at all. But I'm not prepared to take the chance that I'd be the one to miss my target and hit someone minding his own business a block away.

I don't think I'd have any psychological problems with taking down a bad guy in a him or me situation - regrets yes, but better than the alternative. But if I injured an innocent person because of my rash act, that is an issue that I'm not prepared to risk.

The chance that I might ever need a gun anywhere is minuscule, and the chances of hurting someone other than the bad guy is smaller yet, but I'll take the safer road. Even trained LEO's miss more than they hit in a gunfight. Any Joe Citizen who thinks he's going to do better is not facing the realities of the situation.

[Wadcutter]

DiskDoctr wrote:
Not sure who picked out 21 ft or why? 20 ft barely takes more than point and shoot. Inside of that, don't even bother with sites.

People have twisted the 21 ft distance thing into something it was never intended. They have heard 21 ft rule but have no idea what it is really about. It's not about being in a safe zone at 21 ft distance. In fact, it's just the opposite. It's a drill to show that even at 21 ft you're not safe from handheld weapons.
Dennis Tueller was a defensive tactics instructor with the Salt Lake City PD years ago. He is the one who developed the 21 ft drill which is named after him in defensive tactics circle. His drill is to show that even if a person is 21 ft away from you they are still a threat with handheld weapons. In cop work you need to get close to a person so you can have some kind of conversation. Cops were thinking that if they expanded the distance that they'd be safe. Someone armed with a knife or club, 21 ft away, seemed like a long distance. Cops were still getting hurt at that distance. What the Tueller Drill demonstrates is if someone is 21 ft away and decides to rush and attack you, that you will not have time to draw and fire before they'll be on you with their weapon.
Even if a person was prepared for the attack and able to get off a shot that at 21 ft the person will still have covered enough distance to be able to inflict serious harm.
That's all the 21 ft drill is. It's to show cops that even at 21 ft distance you're still in the threat zone. It had nothing to do with over 21 ft you're safe. In fact, the drill now has been expanded to 30 ft. It was only intended to show cops that at a distance that seems far away you are still at risk of being harmed by handheld weapons. It's gets twisted by people who don't have a clue what it's about.

[DiskDoctr]

RPreeb wrote:
I wouldn't trust myself to make a good split second decision in the heat of the moment, and If I can't trust myself, I'm certainly not going to have much faith in the ability of a random stranger to know how to act responsibly in an emergency just because he sat through a CC class.

That is a very personal decision. Just understand that your lack of personal judgement also applies to a stick, baseball bat, a cell phone, or even a motor vehicle. What would you do in an accident? (Not a slam against you, I know folks who surrendered their drivers' license and agree with their reasons. Not to worry, we drive them around)

Secondly, YOUR lack of decision making ability in no way impacts anyone else's ability or trustworthiness. The two simply do not correlate.

Now if you were just exaggerating to make a point... 😉

Otherwise, you are one of the people in society who needs to be protected. If you can't do it for yourself (and there are valid reasons for some folks to be in this situation), just be thankful there are police officers, firemen, military, and Good Samaritans 😉

Appreciate those who stand up when others cannot. I sure salute them.

[RPreeb]

westernrvparkowner wrote:
In 2012, the last year I can find statistics for, there were 259 justifiable homicides (killing in self defense) and 548 accidental shooting deaths. There is a consistent pattern of 2 accidental shooting deaths per each justifiable self defense killing over the years I can easily find statistics for. And that doesn't take into account the leading cause of death by handguns, which is suicide.
By my reasoning I am twice as likely to accidentally kill an innocent person than I would be to actually stop a criminal dead in his tracks. And without a gun in my possession, I am highly unlikely to become one of the 8000+ people who shoot themselves to death on purpose, which might become a consideration if I shot an innocent bystander to death.

This is an unexpected but somewhat refreshing statement, especially coming from a Montanan. This is NOT an accusation or indictment against Montana (I lived there for 9 years and liked it), but an observation based on the typical Montanan's feelings on gun possession. I owned a couple of guns when I lived there, and I owned one until a few years ago here in Colorado. I just hadn't used it in the last 15 years, so I gave it to a gun dealer to keep or resell as he chose.

Despite having done a lot of shooting and being a reasonably good shot, I wouldn't trust myself to make a good split second decision in the heat of the moment, and If I can't trust myself, I'm certainly not going to have much faith in the ability of a random stranger to know how to act responsibly in an emergency just because he sat through a CC class.

[Rovin__Bones]

In an incident where the perp is in close range (under 15-20 feet) and the weapon is not already in his/her hand, but it is known that it is present, a good knife will win the day. I carry a K-Bar with a 7" razor sharp blade most of the time I am out on my motorcycle or camping.