ST vs LT tires.

[CapriRacer]

What is it about this subject that causes threads to close sooooo quickly?

The last lasted 8 hours!!! before it was closed.

So let's try this again, but folks - let's keep it civil.

No name calling, no accusations.

And to the moderators: Please don't close these threads. If you can't remove offending posts, at least consider banning the folks who are violating the rules. I know some people can't help themselves, but it is penalizing those of us who do follow the rules.

These topics are of interest to some folks, and we don't want obnoxious behavior, so if you have an interest - KEEP IT POLITE!!

[Dick_A]

Enough!

[CKNSLS]

Me Again wrote:

CKNSLS wrote:

Me Again wrote:

CKNSLS wrote:


With all due respect Chris, tire manufacturers are not making ST tires with tread designs that are defective.

And you know this why? And more to the point, I said the tread pattern was wrong for a trailer tire, not defective.

Chris

Then you know more than all those manufacturers since all the tread designs are very similar.

Yep they are all in business to create products that you consider the tread "not quite right".

Unbelievable!

Yes and they all fail in similar manners!!!! If they did not fail that often, we would not be reading and posting to tire threads!

Chris

You have no idea what conditions said tires have been through prior to failure. 99.5% ST failures are undocumented as to cause.

[Me_Again]

CKNSLS wrote:

Me Again wrote:

CKNSLS wrote:


With all due respect Chris, tire manufacturers are not making ST tires with tread designs that are defective.

And you know this why? And more to the point, I said the tread pattern was wrong for a trailer tire, not defective.

Chris

Then you know more than all those manufacturers since all the tread designs are very similar.

Yep they are all in business to create products that you consider the tread "not quite right".

Unbelievable!

Yes and they all fail in similar manners!!!! If they did not fail that often, we would not be reading and posting to tire threads!

Chris

[CKNSLS]

Me Again wrote:

CKNSLS wrote:


With all due respect Chris, tire manufacturers are not making ST tires with tread designs that are defective.

And you know this why? And more to the point, I said the tread pattern was wrong for a trailer tire, not defective.

Chris

Then you know more than all those manufacturers since all the tread designs are very similar.

Yep they are all in business to create products that you consider the tread "not quite right".

Unbelievable!

[Me_Again]

CKNSLS wrote:


With all due respect Chris, tire manufacturers are not making ST tires with tread designs that are defective.

And you know this why? And more to the point, I said the tread pattern was wrong for a trailer tire, not defective.

Chris

[CKNSLS]

Me Again wrote:

CapriRacer wrote:

Me Again wrote:
.....You have repeated that statement a couple times in this thread!!!!

All ST tires seem to have a tread pattern similar to the GY Marathon which looks a lot like the standard industry All-Season offering. Maybe you can explain this after viewing this picture.

http://www.goodyearrvtires.com/images/tire-selector/Marathon.jpg

Chris

Doesn't tread compound have a profound effect on traction? Would you expect a tire with no real traction requirement to have the same tread compound as one that does?

Yes tires like the Bridgestore Blizzak winter traction tire have a VERY SOFT tread compound. I do not believe the ST tires fall into that category, so we are talking about the more open block tread, and breaks in the outer ribs that grab the payment is tight turned.

This is a good tread pattern for a trailer tire, which is similar to what one sees on OTR truck trailers.



This is again the Marathon.



Then we have the high quality/cost GY G614.



Carlisle Radial Trail RH.



Power King - Towmax.



Here is a picture of a Bridgestone long haul trailer only tire.



As a tire engineer, which tread would you pick for a trailer service only tire.

Does it take more material to create a straight rib pattern like these commercial grade tires, thus raising the cost of such a tire?

Do people that avoid tight maneuvers in on high traction surfaces have less issues with ST tires?

Tread/ply separations appear to be one of the big issue with ST tires. Are ST tires tearing themselves apart do to the tread design?

Chris

With all due respect Chris, tire manufacturers are not making ST tires with tread designs that are defective.

[CapriRacer]

Me Again wrote:
As a tire engineer, which tread would you pick for a trailer service only tire.....

I think this has more to do with how the marketing department wants the tire to look than what I think would work best - as the difference is not all that great.

But I would select a less costly tread compound for trailer only service tires - and that was the point I was getting at.

Me Again wrote:
.....Does it take more material to create a straight rib pattern like these commercial grade tires, thus raising the cost of such a tire?....

Yes, all other things being equal.

Me Again wrote:
.....Tread/ply separations appear to be one of the big issue with ST tires. Are ST tires tearing themselves apart due to the tread design?.....

No.

[OhBlackWater]

I had Marathons on my camper, but after a blowout, I switched to Maxxis from Just Tires. They have held up well so far. I try to keep my speed down and my pressure at 80 psi.

[Me_Again]

CapriRacer wrote:

Me Again wrote:
.....You have repeated that statement a couple times in this thread!!!!

All ST tires seem to have a tread pattern similar to the GY Marathon which looks a lot like the standard industry All-Season offering. Maybe you can explain this after viewing this picture.

http://www.goodyearrvtires.com/images/tire-selector/Marathon.jpg

Chris

Doesn't tread compound have a profound effect on traction? Would you expect a tire with no real traction requirement to have the same tread compound as one that does?

Yes tires like the Bridgestore Blizzak winter traction tire have a VERY SOFT tread compound. I do not believe the ST tires fall into that category, so we are talking about the more open block tread, and breaks in the outer ribs that grab the payment is tight turned.

This is a good tread pattern for a trailer tire, which is similar to what one sees on OTR truck trailers.



This is again the Marathon.



Then we have the high quality/cost GY G614.



Carlisle Radial Trail RH.



Power King - Towmax.



Here is a picture of a Bridgestone long haul trailer only tire.



As a tire engineer, which tread would you pick for a trailer service only tire.

Does it take more material to create a straight rib pattern like these commercial grade tires, thus raising the cost of such a tire?

Do people that avoid tight maneuvers in on high traction surfaces have less issues with ST tires?

Tread/ply separations appear to be one of the big issue with ST tires. Are ST tires tearing themselves apart do to the tread design?

Chris

[CapriRacer]

Me Again wrote:
Again, that table is like the T&RA one I found that states, 2039 at 32 pounds inflation and these tires at rated at 2039 at 44 pounds inflation.

Here is from Michelin Man site P245/65R17 105 T 1854@44 and here is what is on the sidewall.



So if you think tire companies are always right, think again!

On edit: your second reference noted this: NOTE A: Some P-Metric Light Load and Standard Load tires may be branded with a maximum inflation pressure of 35, 44 or 51 psi for high speed and handling optimization. However, there is no load increase above 35 psi, yet the first T&RA chart ends at 32 pounds inflation.

Chris

Chris,

Look very carefully at what it says on the sidewall. It says max load 2039 #, max pressure 44 psi. That is NOT a relationship. Those are 2 independent statements.

[CapriRacer]

Me Again wrote:
I believe that tire manufacturers may have more lawyers than engineers now a days.

Wife has a 2004 Buick Rainier CXL Plus AWD which came OEM with Michelin Cross Terrain 255/60R17 tires. This past week, I replaced them finally! They had a lot of tread left, however were 9.5+ years old. Vehicle has 51K, however I ran studded snow tires several winters, which made the vehicle handle better than the crappy Cross Terrains! So I never liked them, as they had a mushy feel regarding handling. The 2004 AWD Rainier was I believe the only 360 chassis that used this size. All the other Trailerblazers, Rainiers etc used P245/65R17 tires.

I went to Discount and installed Michelin P245/65R17 LTX M&S tires. All the forums claim this to be the best tire for the 360 chassis. I could not find a pressure chart on Michelin's site, so I called them and asked if they had a pressure chart available for that tire. NO! They said I needed to call the vehicle manufacturer to get an air pressure recommendation!!!! So not only do they leave it up to the car manufacturer, they also do not provide the pressure charts. In fact, the only pressure chart I could find for that size maxed at 35 pounds inflation and these tires are rated to 2039 at 44.

So the tire guys are not hiding behind trees!!!! They are hiding behind their Barristers!!!

Chris

First, the type of tire you have does indeed max out at 35 psi, not 44 psi.

Second, those 2 tire size are equivalent. No need for a pressure chart.

Third, when contacting a tire manufacturer, it is extremely important to word your question carefully to get the response you want. Many sharp plaintiffs attorneys do exactly that and it is a tactic that is well know by those folks who answer emails from tire manufacturers. Complain all you want, but it is the way it is.

[CapriRacer]

Me Again wrote:
.....You have repeated that statement a couple times in this thread!!!!

All ST tires seem to have a tread pattern similar to the GY Marathon which looks a lot like the standard industry All-Season offering. Maybe you can explain this after viewing this picture.

http://www.goodyearrvtires.com/images/tire-selector/Marathon.jpg

Chris

Doesn't tread compound have a profound effect on traction? Would you expect a tire with no real traction requirement to have the same tread compound as one that does?

[JJBIRISH]

Me Again wrote:

JJBIRISH wrote:

kedanie wrote:
Well, it looks like FastEagle is going to try and blow up this thread.

That's generally what happens whenever things start to go against his marketing of ST tires.

Keith

:h because of his marketing or because of your dislike or disagreement with what he says, he does always supply backup information to his claims, making it easy for you to dispute what he says with qualified and creditable documentation if you choose… :h
How is that his problem or a problem for the thread???

The E-mail Jim posted was loaded with recommendations and does nothing to increase the liability to the Mfg.… that e-mail, as were the ones I have posted have no legal binding information and are not official documents…
Each company has plenty of disclaimers to assure that, an example of that for a warranty claim Michelin and GY state…

No Michelin representative, employee or retailer has the authority to make or imply
any representation, promise or agreement, which in any way varies the terms of
this warranty…

Disclaimer: This warranty is in lieu of, and Goodyear hereby disclaims, any and all other warranties and representations, express or implied, including without limitation any warranty of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose, and no other warranty or representation of any kind is made by Goodyear or shall be implied by law.

I am going to only guess there is no official documentation making the claims that were made in the E-mail even if the information is essentially true…
And no I am not making the argument either way…

If manufacturers hold the line on warranty statements, why does GY pay for trailer damage. The Warranty states that consequencial damages are excluded. (Loss of time, inconvenience, loss of use of vehicle, incidental or consequential damage)

I have a friend that replaced Marathons with BFG Commercial TA. One failed this spring in Arizona. BFG/Michelin replaced the tire and paid for trailer damage, never questioning FE's scary outcomes. Discount Tire handled it in at a Mesa store. He said it was like a police report.

So you ask why FE motives are questioned? You have to go back many years and. follow his shill marketing to fully understand that he is not a normal poster like most of us. At one point a few years ago he stated that the government was going to ban LT tires on trailers. He has over many years used many tricks the market his product. He is noted for deleting posts later to cover his tracks.

I would follow jimnlin's advice way before any of FE's marketing centric dribble.

Chris

Chris

Manufactures that don’t hold the line usually have motives for not doing so that can change overnight… the fact is those words are the contract between you and the company and their fixing damage to your trailer doesn’t obligate them to mine or set precedence…

Their motives are almost always to protect themselves through a good will gesture… not always but often to head off future recalls if they can…

Not to defend FE, and I do not his motives then or now… I have disagreed with him many times before even very recently… still he generally offers something or a link to support his comments and makes it easy to dispute his claims if you have better or different information… his has offered a lot of factual information even if it is unpopular…

I have said already and will again, I have a great deal of respect for Jims knowledge and experience, but I don’t arbitrarily except one bit of information over another from anyone… they are all single sources of information I have to debate or research in my own mind therefore my opinion are mine and I own them, and popularity isn’t an issue for me…
I don’t know how much knowledge I have or have forgotten, but I to have a fair amount of trailering experience and countless hundreds of thousands of miles towing one or another of many types and sizes of trailers to use in forming my opinions…

[JJBIRISH]

gitane59 wrote:

Hoppypoppy wrote:
As someone else suggested, tire threads should be a sticky. The FACT is...no one KNOWS for sure. Everyone has anecdotal evidence and that satisfies most of us. If I have had ST's and they were a problem I probably won't buy them again. I will go with LT's. And vice versa. It's good to believe in what you buy and ONLY YOUR experience will determine your happiness.

And when someone posts with a ST or LT tire failure looking for answer and solutions that is what forums are best at. Allowing people to share advice and opinions based on previous experience is the ideal.
Unfortunately as with all things in society we have differing biases and opinions which leads to all sorts of disagreements and debate with the results being ongoing vitriolic debates when positions become intractable.
It would be ideal if all positions were outlined in a sticky with a detailed FAQ so less people would have to ask the same questions every few weeks therefore limiting these threads that ultimately end up degenerating to the point where there are either closed or deleted.

What would reduce the senseless debate more, would be to better target debate to categorize it by size and weight… xps ribs are a completely useless tire and/or recommendation for light weight trailers but you would be hard pressed to know that based on some post I have read…

The argument is almost always centered around good information and opinion on large heave trailers, that becomes more and more meaningless as the size and weight goes down… most of the LT proponents arguments have no or little meaning to the largest segment of the towable population (that is my opinion, not a hard count, I am not going to research it or debate it, it’s from recollection of RVIA sales figures)… it not the debate that is bad, debate is good…
That’s not to say the xps isn’t a great tire and it’s not to say the ST tire is even a good tire for a 15,000 pound 5er…

Neither is the extent some would have to go to, to follow the recommendations often made for towables, or are they even close to reasonable…

So as long as opinion and debate rages on between users of 185/80R13 LR C and others using LT235/85R16 E or LT235/85R16 G without being able to segregate the extremes of different uses the arguments will never change or become any more reasonable…