WDH too much tension and how would you know?

[1L243]

I am setting up my new Toy Hauler with a Standard WDH rated at 10k. After weighing I am a little light in the front end and would like to try and transfer come more weight forward by dropping the head angle by adding one more washer. It works, I was able to add more weight to the front but it is a bugger to get the bars hooked up even using a electric tongue jack to help lift..

My question can you apply too much tension to the tension bars and how do you know what is too much?

[1L243]

1L243 wrote:
I spent a few hours re setting the WDH. What I came up with

Trunk only at 5 psi in air bags

rear wheel well 38"
front wheel well 35"

Truck and Trailer no WDH hitch and 5 psi
rear 35 5/8"
front 35 1/2"

I am maxed out on how much more tension I can put on the 1000# bars.

Truck with WDH and 5 psi
rear 36"
front 35 3/4"

Truck with WDH and 35 psi (this is the psi where I normally run when towing)

rear 36 5/8"
front 35 1/2"

I am looking and in the market for 1500# bars

I thought I would share the numbers I came up with the new 15000 Trunnion style WDH.

I used tape and marked it this time on the wheel wells so I would be sure to measure the same place each time.

I have not gone to the scales yet and I had no cargo in the back of the truck which is usually in the 300lb range when on the road with the trailer. My 950lb motorcycle was not in the garage of the trailer. But I am thinking the two may be a wash. But I will be weighing again in a few weeks.

*****************************************************************

Truck Empty Bags at 5psi No Trailer

Rear wheel Well 38 1/8"

Front Wheel Well 35 1/8"

Truck with 5 psi and Trailer but NO WDH

Rear wheel well 36 1/8"

Font wheel Well 35 5/8"

Truck with Trailer 5psi AND WDH

Rear wheel well 37"

Front wheel well 35 3/8"

***************************************************************

Truck with Trailer and 35psi WITH WDH

Rear wheel well 37 1/2"

Front wheel well 35 1/4"

The goal not to get back to unloaded height so, I think I am pretty happy with the numbers.

The new hitch springs up fairly easily. I am only lifting the truck 2" above stock height to spring the bars.

The hitch head is angled as far as it can go to get the most lift on the bars and still be level when sprung.

[Walaby]

atwowheelguy wrote:
The height of the rear wheel well should never be higher than the unloaded height. I got mine adjusted so that the front is only 100 lbs. lighter than the unloaded weight. The trailer tongue weight lifted 360 lbs. from the front and the WDH returned 260 lbs. back. So 72 percent of the weight lifted from the front was returned.

Please forgive my ignorance.. Im a little confused with your chart. I really like it the chart, so maybe it's just how Im reading it.

Your chart says your tongue weight is 900lbs. But, the Truck only Drive axle weight is 2740 and with trailer hooked up, but WD bars not used, it is 4000. So, doesn't that make your actual trailers tongue weight 1260 (or maybe 1160 if you assume 100 lbs for the hitch)?

EDIT: I think I see now. When you say 360 lbs transferred from front to back due to the trailer without hitch, that 360 is not part of the trailers tongue weight, it's still truck weight that moved. That's how you got 900. Took me a few mins staring at your post to see that.

Mike

[1L243]

atwowheelguy wrote:

1L243 wrote:
I spent a few hours re setting the WDH. What I came up with

Trunk only at 5 psi in air bags

rear wheel well 38"
front wheel well 35"

Truck and Trailer no WDH hitch and 5 psi
rear 35 5/8"
front 35 1/2"

I am maxed out on how much more tension I can put on the 1000# bars.

Truck with WDH and 5 psi
rear 36"
front 35 3/4"

Truck with WDH and 35 psi (this is the psi where I normally run when towing)

rear 36 5/8"
front 35 1/2"

I am looking and in the market for 1500# bars

This is not what I would have expected. That's if I understand the numbers correctly.
35" front unloaded
35 1/2" front, loaded, without WDH, 1/2" rise, to be expected
35 3/4" front, loaded, with WDH, another 1/4" rise, not expected, the front should have gone down when the WDH bars were tightened up.

The best way is to take it to the scales. http://www.publicscaleslocator.com

This is the way mine worked out.

I agree I did not catch that when I was doing the measurements. I moved the trailer out of my RV Port which has a concrete pad onto the gravel driveway between those measurements. The was the truck was sitting must have changed.

[RinconVTR]

1L243 wrote:
I am setting up my new Toy Hauler with a Standard WDH rated at 10k. After weighing I am a little light in the front end and would like to try and transfer come more weight forward by dropping the head angle by adding one more washer. It works, I was able to add more weight to the front but it is a bugger to get the bars hooked up even using a electric tongue jack to help lift..

My question can you apply too much tension to the tension bars and how do you know what is too much?

Poor mans check is verifying the rear is not over the original ride height and the front is as close to the original ride height at possible.

Best option is hitting the scale and watch the weights change with and without the trailer with WDH attached. Use the WDH bar tension to get the front axle weight as close to the original weight as possible.

You'll know if you're over tension if you have more than the unloaded weight applied at the front.

And if the front is still light, then you need heavier WDH bars, which I think is the situation you are in right now from the sound of things.

[JBarca]

1L243 wrote:
JBarca what hitch are you using. I am finding that not all replacement round bars are compatible. I may have to go with a new hitch all together. I have found a 1400# in a round bar style and a 1500# in a Trunnion style. I have not found a 1700#

I have the Reese HP trunnion bar hitch with the HP Dual Cam. To get the 1,700# rating I had to upgrade the my Ford receiver to a 2 1/2" Reese Tow Beast receiver as the OEM one stopped at 1,250# in WD mode. I also have a 2 1/2" WD shank that tapers to 2" to go into the hitch head.

Here is a pic


Reese offers 600, 800, 1,200, 1,500 and 1,700 bars that all fit the same HP Trunnion bar HP hitch head. The WD shank needs to change to get to 1,700#

If you are thinking of going this way, a very good hitch, lets talk a little first so you get the right setup from the word go.

Hope this helps

John

[JBarca]

1L243 wrote:


The process you describe is the method I am using but I don't think I am going as high with the truck and trailer as you are. I thought I might be putting too much load on the 3500# jack. I am only lifting the truck and trailer 2" higher than the stock truck height. I will experiment tying to lift a little higher.

When I get my heavier bars I will redo all the measurements and reweigh...

Hi,

The 2" of lift above the stock height would be your problem. I have a 3,500 ball screw Atwood and it lifts the truck and trailer without issues. I would estimate I and 4" maybe 5" above stock height. Mine does have a slip clutch if I come to the overload point which is has never had.

Hope this helps

John

[1L243]

JBarca what hitch are you using. I am finding that not all replacement round bars are compatible. I may have to go with a new hitch all together. I have found a 1400# in a round bar style and a 1500# in a Trunnion style. I have not found a 1700#

[1L243]

JBarca wrote:

1L243 wrote:

So, not happy with this , in my driveway so I dont' have weights for this only measurements, I added one extra washer on the WDH to drop the bars a little so I could get more tension and still have level bars.

Doing this transferred more weight the front, front wheel well measurement dropped and the rear came up. But I had to really lift the truck and trailer with the Jack and it was a bear to get the springs set.But I had to really lift the truck and trailer with the Jack and it was a bear to get the springs set. So, I was wondering just how much force can I put on those WDH bars!

A good qty of good advice has already been shared. And when you dump the air in the bags down to 5 psi things are working but just not enough yet.

I sense you still may be dealing with a hitching problem which is why you are asking about can the bars be too tight and it is a bear to hook up.

First off, I agree those 1,000# WD bars are not enough for that trailer with the weight you have. Getting larger bars is a good start to getting the WD set right on the truck.

Now the hitching issue, I am using 1,700# bars on a 1,600# loaded tongue weight. There is no way I can lift that kind of spring bar safely using a pipe. You have to unload the WD bar when hitching and you can flip up the snap up by hand if you want.

The key is, you first hitch the trailer to the ball coupler and lock the ball coupler. Then you lift both the trailer and the back of the truck up high enough until you can swing the snap ups with 2 fingers (by hand, and yes 2 fingers will work when high enough. Most trailer jacks do not go high enough to allow this to happen. So you need a 6" block of wood or other material to put under the tongue jack and then you can get the height. Yes, it looks like the back of the truck is sky high, but that is what it takes.

Once the snap up's are latched up, then let the jack down and it will load up the WD bars safely and easy. When unhitching, do the same thing. Get the trailer and truck up high enough to unload the WD bars, and USE the pipe to make sure the snap up will not fly down. I always tap the chains to make sure they are not banjo tight still before I ever attempt to unlatch.

When you get your 1,500# bars this will become a mandate to get the trailer and truck up high enough. Do like I do, get a friendly 6" block of wood and keep it in the camper all the time for the tongue jack. It is your friend for dealing with large WD bars.

Hope this helps

John

The process you describe is the method I am using but I don't think I am going as high with the truck and trailer as you are. I thought I might be putting too much load on the 3500# jack. I am only lifting the truck and trailer 2" higher than the stock truck height. I will experiment tying to lift a little higher.

When I get my heavier bars I will redo all the measurements and reweigh...

[JBarca]

1L243 wrote:

So, not happy with this , in my driveway so I dont' have weights for this only measurements, I added one extra washer on the WDH to drop the bars a little so I could get more tension and still have level bars.

Doing this transferred more weight the front, front wheel well measurement dropped and the rear came up. But I had to really lift the truck and trailer with the Jack and it was a bear to get the springs set.But I had to really lift the truck and trailer with the Jack and it was a bear to get the springs set. So, I was wondering just how much force can I put on those WDH bars!

A good qty of good advice has already been shared. And when you dump the air in the bags down to 5 psi things are working but just not enough yet.

I sense you still may be dealing with a hitching problem which is why you are asking about can the bars be too tight and it is a bear to hook up.

First off, I agree those 1,000# WD bars are not enough for that trailer with the weight you have. Getting larger bars is a good start to getting the WD set right on the truck.

Now the hitching issue, I am using 1,700# bars on a 1,600# loaded tongue weight. There is no way I can lift that kind of spring bar safely using a pipe. You have to unload the WD bar when hitching and you can flip up the snap up by hand if you want.

The key is, you first hitch the trailer to the ball coupler and lock the ball coupler. Then you lift both the trailer and the back of the truck up high enough until you can swing the snap ups with 2 fingers (by hand, and yes 2 fingers will work when high enough. Most trailer jacks do not go high enough to allow this to happen. So you need a 6" block of wood or other material to put under the tongue jack and then you can get the height. Yes, it looks like the back of the truck is sky high, but that is what it takes.

Once the snap up's are latched up, then let the jack down and it will load up the WD bars safely and easy. When unhitching, do the same thing. Get the trailer and truck up high enough to unload the WD bars, and USE the pipe to make sure the snap up will not fly down. I always tap the chains to make sure they are not banjo tight still before I ever attempt to unlatch.

When you get your 1,500# bars this will become a mandate to get the trailer and truck up high enough. Do like I do, get a friendly 6" block of wood and keep it in the camper all the time for the tongue jack. It is your friend for dealing with large WD bars.

Hope this helps

John

[atwowheelguy]

1L243 wrote:
I spent a few hours re setting the WDH. What I came up with

Trunk only at 5 psi in air bags

rear wheel well 38"
front wheel well 35"

Truck and Trailer no WDH hitch and 5 psi
rear 35 5/8"
front 35 1/2"

I am maxed out on how much more tension I can put on the 1000# bars.

Truck with WDH and 5 psi
rear 36"
front 35 3/4"

Truck with WDH and 35 psi (this is the psi where I normally run when towing)

rear 36 5/8"
front 35 1/2"

I am looking and in the market for 1500# bars

This is not what I would have expected. That's if I understand the numbers correctly.
35" front unloaded
35 1/2" front, loaded, without WDH, 1/2" rise, to be expected
35 3/4" front, loaded, with WDH, another 1/4" rise, not expected, the front should have gone down when the WDH bars were tightened up.

The best way is to take it to the scales. http://www.publicscaleslocator.com

This is the way mine worked out.

[1L243]

I spent a few hours re setting the WDH. What I came up with

Trunk only at 5 psi in air bags

rear wheel well 38"
front wheel well 35"

Truck and Trailer no WDH hitch and 5 psi
rear 35 5/8"
front 35 1/2"

I am maxed out on how much more tension I can put on the 1000# bars.

Truck with WDH and 5 psi
rear 36"
front 35 3/4"

Truck with WDH and 35 psi (this is the psi where I normally run when towing)

rear 36 5/8"
front 35 1/2"

I am looking and in the market for 1500# bars

[mkirsch]

When you're talking about the mechanics of WD hitches and towing, the rear axle *IS* the fulcrum around which all the forces act.

The tongue weight pushes down behind the fulcrum, lifting the front.

The WD bars pry up behind the fulcrum, pushing the front back down.

Yes, the airbags lift the rear of the truck up, but that is a completely different lever than the one the tongue weight and WD bars are acting on. In the context of the tongue weight and WD bars, the airbags are pushing directly on the fulcrum point, and do almost nothing to affect the situation. Total effect is around 20lbs, maximum.

Now, if the airbags could raise the rear end of the truck up several FEET, rather than just a few inches, the effect would be much more pronounced. Since you can't tow with the tongue several feet in the air and the truck riding nose-down at a 45+ degree angle, the effects are really not relevant.

[atwowheelguy]

The height of the rear wheel well should never be higher than the unloaded height. I got mine adjusted so that the front is only 100 lbs. lighter than the unloaded weight. The trailer tongue weight lifted 360 lbs. from the front and the WDH returned 260 lbs. back. So 72% of the weight lifted from the front was returned.

[joshuajim]

My experience with air bags when I owned a Ram 1500 is that if I put too much air in the bags the rear suspension became too stiff and acted like a fulcrum and affected the weight transfer to the front axle. It resulted in the truck porposing like the front end was light. Try lowering the pressure and let the rear suspension do it's job.

The rear suspension is supposed to drop when loaded. Don't try to keep it at it's unloaded height.