3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[LittleBill]

professor, i saw in the owners manual there is a wheel kit option? you wouldn't happen to know the price for it would you?

[rgraham]

looking for a generator

[LittleBill]

professor thanks for the info, didn't know anything about phase reversal, but i completely understand what you are saying, let me ask one question though, they are allowing over 20 amps 30 in fact on a recpictle only rated at 20? isn't this a problem? i personally don't care seeing as how i will never get over 20 but, u can see the concern

also one more question how sure are you on the phase reversal? because if you look at the circuit breaker switches, each one is label 110v, which mean they are independent, but on the bottom in the middle it shows 220v, which gives me the assumption that both breakers have to be on to get the 220v, which makes sense to me, now what happens if i only flip one up on the 110v setting? i only get 15 amps out of both recepticals? then flip the next one and i get 30, ill test it tommorow with a volt meter and see if it kills one recepticale when i shut off a breaker, i hope it doesn't cus i would love if it does what you say it does

EDIT

Professor i think you are correct, i test teh generator with a continuity test off one of the 220v terminals, with the 110 terminals, i have continuity even with one breaker down which supports your suspucions that they are parrellel, i will test this theory again tommorow when i actually run the machine, man i am excited

EDIT

lol driving you guyz nutz here, the first circuit breaker one the left, is the one that goes into phase reversal, flipping the 220v switch kills the continuity between the 2

[LittleBill]

yours doesn't do 240? though does it? i needed the 240 incase the power in the house went out, our well is on 240, also i noticed yours is 73db, mine is 67db, thats a considerable difference for a engine that looks identical to mine, well c what happens, good luck with your purchase, im quite excited about mine

[professor95]

Little Bill,

I think we are agreeing, just not communicating. Yes, you are correct in saying that you can draw 1,200 watts from each outlet - independently. But, since you can only plug your AC into one at a time, your single phase useable load is limited to one of the 10 amp breakers. The Pep Boys add is misleading in that respect - you cannot draw 25 amps at 110 volts from a single outlet on the NINKOTA!

Now for the ELM3000. It also has two stator windings. But, each is protected by a 15 amp breaker (not a 10 amp). The ELIM has the ability to incorporate phase reversal on one stator and put both of them in parallel by the flick of the voltage selector switch on the front. This is why you must choose either 110 out or 220 out, but cannot choose both at the same time - well, actually you could draw 110 and 220 at the same time from the 220 outlet if you use the netural wire as a center tap, you just can't use both the 20 amp rated 110 outlet and 30 amp rated 220 outlet at the same time. In the 110 volt mode, current is drawn through both 15 amp breakers in parallel, giving overcurrent protection that exceeds the generators output (30 amps total - not really a good idea, but that is how they did it).

If you want to run the AC on your RV and you have a 30 amp 120 volt service for your RV, I believe you made the best choice with the ELM3000 unit.

[TeamSlacker]

I couldn't take the anticipation tonight either and picked one up after work. The one I got is a 'Powerwise' from checkerauto.com, picked it up at a local store for $299. Says it's rated at 3500peak and 3k cont. Has 2 standard 15/20amp outlets, and voltage gauge. Brought it home, filled with oil, filled with gas, turned the switch on and the choke, was going to pull it over slowly once to prime it and it sputtered, so 2'nd pull was a good yank and it started right up, turned off the choke and away she went.

Here's the same thing for sale online.
http://www.hayesequipment.com/powerwise_3500_generator.htm

First impression. Well considering it started on second pull we're off to a good start. Noise level.. I've never owned a gen before so I don't have much to compare to other than what I hear running at the track when I race. It's definatly not as loud as my pressure washer/lawnmower or snow blower. Like is mentioned above it has a huge muffler, and I think the exhaust is the least of the noise. Sounds like most of the noise it makes is coming from the air intake. I have a RadioShack digital sound meter I'll do some dB level checks and post my findings here.

[CDK]

professor95
Thanks for the reply.

[LittleBill]

well i bought the 3000 watt elim, its heavy though for me, a bit over 50 pounds, im told though that its going to be a discontinued item, that bothered me a bit but i like return policy's if it doesn't do what i want

professor i also looked at a wiring diagram and im not fighting you at all, but let me ask a question, it showed on the diagram that each 110 volt line was breaker with a 10 amp circuit breaker, doesn't that mean each recipticle is has 10 amps which is 20 amps total or 2400 watts? i guess i can see what ur saying that the rv only has 1 recepicle to use, but wouldn't that be the same for the 3000 i bought?

let me know im interested in hearing what u say

i also have a db meter if you guyz would like actual numbers

below is an ebay auction for almost the same one, this has a dc chargering unit and a 4 prong 230 volt outlet but other then that identical, and it says it is a honda engine, im feeling good, i think i got the cheapest deal of all

ebay auction for similar model

looking at it more closely the recepticles for the 110, are actually 20 amp recpts which gives me the indication that they are 20 amp breakers, i don't know though, i will test it tommmorow see what happens, the owners manual is in fact a joke but i don't care don't really need it anyway,

let me ask you guyz a question, is there an actual drain plug on generators or do you end up tipping it over? to drain it?

[Nvr2old2go]

I have a co-worker who bought one of the PepBoys 3500 Watt units last fall. He only uses it when he goes to Nascar races to camp in the infield (noise level is not important when at a Nascar race). He swears by it. He also used it during a power outage this winter. Part of his decision logic was he would not be as upset if it was ripped of at the track as he would be if a $1,000 Honda gen, was taken.

[sniffid]

"I have run the AC and Microwave at the same time while trying it out after I bought it."

Dave

We have a buyer! What was your impression of the sound level and quality. What generator experiences do you have to compare it to?

I have a 1000Watt generator I bought on ebay a couple of years ago - ($200 including shipping) at Bargain Jim's which you can also find on the web. It's not a bad generator but of course limited use at 1KW. The Elim generator is rated to operate at the same noise level. I ran both generators consecutively to see if I heard a noticible difference. I didn't and so to my way of thinking it was well worth the money.

Dave

[professor95]

(Quote) > just went to look at the generator's at pepboys, professor is incorrect in his statment about the 3500 watt generator only being a 1200 watt generator,, (snip)

Hummm........

I do not believe I am incorrect in my statement that the generator is only 1,200 watts at 110 volts. Please let me explain why.

In the NIKOTA manual you will find a wiring diagram. The diagram clearly shows two windings on the generator with a center tap. To get 110 volts, you must use the center tap between the two windings. Both of the high sides of the windings together provide 220 volts. Each leg is protected by a 10 amp circuit breaker. This means that a maximum of 2,200 watts is available at the 220 volt outlet before the breaker trips. Dividing the 220 volts in half gives two phases 180 degrees apart - each supplying 110 volts at 10 amps. This is 1,200 watts. The phases cannot be combined at 110 volts on this generator. But, you could power two INDEPENDENT 110 volt devices that do not exceed 10 amps each

The NIKOTA manual clearly states that the maximum current available for a single phase 110 volt motor is 1,000 watts. This is expected as current on a breaker should not exceed 80% of its rated trip value.

No matter what the box says, or what is stamped on the spec plate for the generator, it is incapable of supplying more than 1,200 watts (10 amps) at 110 volts without tripping the breaker. Of course, someone could replace the breaker with one of a larger rating and perhaps take advantage of the full capabilities of the engine and generator. Of course, the warranty would be voided and the risk of damaging the generator drastically increased.

Trust me on this one. I am well paid to teach Electronics Engineering Technology on the college level and am completely familiar with all of the applicable laws of voltage and current.

The NIKOTA is NOT capable of sustaining a 13,500 BTU air conditioner operating at 110 volts on an RV.

[LittleBill]

i just went to look at the generator's at pepboys, professor is incorrect in his statment about the 3500 watt generator only being a 1200 watt generator, he is correct in stating that it has 10 amp circuit breaker, but it has 2 both are independetaly wired to the 2 recepticales so that is 2400 continues use? i guess the breakers can handle a surge for a certain period of time?

the engines look identical in ever aspect to that of a honda 6.5 hp motor, the only difference is the muffler system which looks to be a small car muffler

the engines are identical between the 3000, and the 3500 same exact motor, the difference is the generator itself, also the 3000 has a guage which show what voltage you are running at,

the 3000, has a switch though between 120 and 240, u can't run both at the same time

both have a 30 amp twist lock but i have a feeling the 3500 series can run both 240 and 120 at the same time, i have no use for that buti am looking at the 3000 model which has a rebate right now for 229 dollars, im strongly considering getting it

the 3500 is 299

both of these prices are good at peboys till 4/2/05


now some one explain me the wattage on this
the 3000
puts out 2.8kw and 3.0kw surge
so thats 2800 watts or 23.3 amps?
if both breakers are rated at 10
how would u be able to get it to use the 23.3 amps?

is this only possible at 240 volts?

then on the 3500 watt
i think it is 3kw and 3.5kw
it says it can put out 25 amps at 120 which is 3000w

how does it do that with 2 indepenedent 10 amp breaker's can someone explain in laymens terms how, any help would be appreciated

it seems this would only be possible with 12.5 amp breakers

i am strongly considering buying the 3000w version though

any help would be appreciated

[CDK]

Just a thought.
When you flip that switch and send all the amps to a 120 volt receptacle, what is the configuration and amp rating of that 120 volt receptacle?

[professor95]

This is an update on where I am with the ELM3000 genset......

I went to Pep-Boys today with the intent of buying one. The sales clerk encouraged me to consider a NIKOTA 3500 watt unit instead, stating that they sold 20 Ninkota's for every ELIM and none had ever been returned as defective. When I looked at the manual for the 3500 watt Nikota, I realized it was only a 1,200 watt unit at 120 volts since it was strapped with a 10 amp circuit breaker. The 3500 watt rating was the maxium output of the generator at 240 volts, actual available wattage at 240 was 2,400 watts. But since RV AC units power from 110-120 volts, this generator would be worthless.

The ELIM3000 unit had a crummy pictograph manual that told me virtually nothing other than how to put gas and oil in the unit, so I left the store empty handed.

I just got off the phone with Glenn at ELIM. He was a very knowledgeable and responsive person. In fact, I was given his cell phone number when I asked for an engineer or a tech familiar with the genset. (he was out of the office at lunch and answered my call - I'm inpressed!)

Glenn stated that the ELIM3000 had a voltage selector switch on the front of the unit. If you selected 110 volts, all available power (25 amps) would be routed to the single outlet. The two 15 amp breakers would be strapped in parallel, giving a 30 amp overcurrent protection. If the unit was in 110 mode, there would be no 220 available and vica-versa for 220 mode. This is indeed encouraging and it sounds like the ELIM will give you full power at 110 volts.

Sooooo....... I guess I will go back to Pep-Boys tomorrow and plop down $249 bucks for the ELIM. The conversation with the importer rep was very positive. By the way - I also tried to call Ninkota. Their line was constantly busy for over 3 hours (I gave up).

One thing I definately do know - the Nikota 3500 watt unit is a no go for RV use.

I'll keep you posted. If anyone finds out anything else from an actual owner, I sure would like to hear it.

[Camp__Forrest__]

I looked at the sound levels for these. At 7m, the EU3000is is 58dB while the ELIM is 67dB. My understanding of the dB scale is that 9dB is a significant difference in volume. Can someone who knows the math confirm this?