3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

I got a chance to look over an Alton from Costco today. It is made by Hangzhou Universal Instrument and Tool, LTD. in Hangzhou, China. UIT is a well established manufacturer of generators and other consumer/commercial power tools. The replacement 6.5 HP Honda-like engines you see on the shelf at PepBoys are made by this company. The muffler on this generator is of a different design than on the other models I have used or examined. This may account for the higher noise rating given by Alton. The front panel is also made of plastic rather than steel. Depending on the grade of platic used it may be subject to stress cracking at the mounting holes, warpage or environmental degration. Personally, I am not real cool on the plastic used on may Chinese manufactured products. Actually, IMHO, the platic parts used on the majority of our RVs is of pretty poor quality as well. Maybe they are made in China too?

Other major manufacturers of these small generators are:

Shangai Chenchang (UST, Contractor, and many 1,000 watt 2 cycle units)
Taizhou Zhongshan (Direct sales in small quanities to most any buyer Big Lots, etc.)
Fuzhou Hauccen(Power Pro)
Jiangsa Jiangdong (Allpower, early ELM3000, Wildfire, Harbor Freight)

My major concern with the Alton is a lack of consumer input on this forum. We have no real history of performance, service or the availability of replacement parts specific to this unit. I did note that the carburetor was built by Huayi, which is typical of most all of the 200cc Honda-like engines used on these generators.

Depending on your needs and priorities, this may be an OK product. I am sure we will find out soon from forum reports.

Still, I contend if you want service after the sale, customer support, a warranty we know is well backed and an affordable price the little yellow units we have become so well reviewed on this forum are hard to beat.

BTW, has anyone bought or have experience with the Chinese built ONAN Homepower unit? Other than the initial advertising and one I saw at the RV show last February I have no other info. They were way over priced (guess because of the ONAN name). I am not sure what Chinese company builds them for Onan, but from the exterior it could be any one of the above listed or even someone else.

One other comment. I have found nothing to suggest Champion Power Equipment builds generator units for rebranding by other vendors. Their factory in Shanghai only builds their own product line.

For those who choose to purchase the Alton from Costco, please keep the formum aprised of your findings.

[MrWizard]

bobandcat wrote:

FJ40Smurf wrote:
I finally got around to unboxing my Costco Alton generator and found what I think may be an issue with this generator.

MrWizard or Professor95 could you please look at this schmatic and tell me if it only uses one AC winding to power the 30amp twistlock outlet? It appears that it uses one winding for the 120v side and the other winding for the twistlock side. I am not real good at reading schmatics but it seems like it would make more sense to use one AC winding per 120 leg to the twistlock. Is this an "inferior" way to wire the generator? I believe the Champion is wired with one AC winding powering a side of the 240v twistlock. If you guys think this will be an issue please let me know and I will return it and hold out hope Champion comes to my area soon. Thanks

I looked at your wiring diagram. It is wired properly. The generator is using both windings to obtain 240 volts for the twist outlet. When you switch it to 120 volts, you have full power from both windings to your 120 volt outlets.

Each side is exclusive, meaning that when you are set to 240 V, your 120 V outlets are dead and when you are switched to 120 V, your 240 V outlet is dead.

I believe that Mr Wizard and the Professor will agree.

yes, from what i see the duplex has full power from both windings for 120v and can be used with a parallel pigtail to draw full power on one cord, so a dual plug to RV adapter will supply full amps qt 120

the 240 volt plug is 240 volts and is NOT hot when the switch is in the 120v position and cannot be used for 120 at full power on the twist lock, and would need a wiring change to get full amps at 120

but it's not necessary, since you can use the pigtail on the duplexs

[joelabq]

Oldfordman wrote:
If your compressor is stalling with air in the tank, check the "Unloader Valve". It is usually part of the start/stop pressure switch. When the pressure switch shuts down the motor, it is also supposed to actuate a valve that works a lot like a valve core on your tires. It then releases the air that is trapped between the tank and the cylinder head of the compressor. This can also be an indication of a problem with the check valve that is the large Hex Shaped fitting screwed into the tank where the air enters it. If the check valve is faulty though, it usually will bleed back through the unloader valve, assuming it is working. If all is working correctly, there should be no difference between air in the tank and empty, as far as starting.

I haven't tried this on my 6 Gallon compressor, but as a test load I put on a portable 13amp compressor with a 1/2 gal tank. It's a cheaper/older unit, and it wouldn't suprise me if what your describing is either broken or not included in this model. I do recall reading something in the champion paperwork that this generator was not ideal for some Saws and Compressors due to the startup load requirements.

Joel

[bobandcat]

FJ40Smurf wrote:
I finally got around to unboxing my Costco Alton generator and found what I think may be an issue with this generator.

MrWizard or Professor95 could you please look at this schmatic and tell me if it only uses one AC winding to power the 30amp twistlock outlet? It appears that it uses one winding for the 120v side and the other winding for the twistlock side. I am not real good at reading schmatics but it seems like it would make more sense to use one AC winding per 120 leg to the twistlock. Is this an "inferior" way to wire the generator? I believe the Champion is wired with one AC winding powering a side of the 240v twistlock. If you guys think this will be an issue please let me know and I will return it and hold out hope Champion comes to my area soon. Thanks

I looked at your wiring diagram. It is wired properly. The generator is using both windings to obtain 240 volts for the twist outlet. When you switch it to 120 volts, you have full power from both windings to your 120 volt outlets.

Each side is exclusive, meaning that when you are set to 240 V, your 120 V outlets are dead and when you are switched to 120 V, your 240 V outlet is dead.

I believe that Mr Wizard and the Professor will agree.

[bobandcat]

content deleted

[FJ40Smurf]

I finally got around to unboxing my Costco Alton generator and found what I think may be an issue with this generator.

MrWizard or Professor95 could you please look at this schmatic and tell me if it only uses one AC winding to power the 30amp twistlock outlet? It appears that it uses one winding for the 120v side and the other winding for the twistlock side. I am not real good at reading schmatics but it seems like it would make more sense to use one AC winding per 120 leg to the twistlock. Is this an "inferior" way to wire the generator? I believe the Champion is wired with one AC winding powering a side of the 240v twistlock. If you guys think this will be an issue please let me know and I will return it and hold out hope Champion comes to my area soon. Thanks
Sorry about the huge size but I don't know how to shrink it and keep it readable.

Edit - for the full size, right click and save to your diskdrive. Use any graphics program to open and resize it. It is stretching the screen width as loaded. Mel

[Oldfordman]

joelabq wrote:
If you want to hear it stall out, try an air compressor that had air in the tank. This runs fine on a 15A home circuit because the startup loads are taken care of by the land power, but my 46530 will stall out unless there is no air in the tank.

If your compressor is stalling with air in the tank, check the "Unloader Valve". It is usually part of the start/stop pressure switch. When the pressure switch shuts down the motor, it is also supposed to actuate a valve that works a lot like a valve core on your tires. It then releases the air that is trapped between the tank and the cylinder head of the compressor. This can also be an indication of a problem with the check valve that is the large Hex Shaped fitting screwed into the tank where the air enters it. If the check valve is faulty though, it usually will bleed back through the unloader valve, assuming it is working. If all is working correctly, there should be no difference between air in the tank and empty, as far as starting.

[regal5575]

For a test load you guys might want to consider using something that stays on for a while and heats up (uses more watts) like an iron, hair dryer, toaster, electric space heater, etc. They will provide a load that is more consistant with their nameplate spec and also won't have the startup surge requirement that a motor has. Just some thoughts.
JerryK

[joelabq]

I'm sure Professor or MrWizard will chime in, but my understanding is that your home breakers do allow for a lot more startup amps then the breaker is rated at, and the electric feed will allow it too.

Based on my limited usage, your generator sounds fine. You will hear the engine bog down when you put the load on it, and then it'll recover. If you want to hear it stall out, try an air compressor that had air in the tank. This runs fine on a 15A home circuit because the startup loads are taken care of by the land power, but my 46530 will stall out unless there is no air in the tank.

[tonyclifton]

I fired up my new Champion 46540, ran it awhile, then put some load on it. It ran a TV and halogen worklight fine. Then I plugged in just my 120v electric logsplitter and split a small log. The Champion bogged down at the initial startup, but recovered quickly and ran the splitter fine. But this splitter doesn't stay "on" - it has a momentary pushbutton so you are turning it on and off continuously for each log you want to split. I normally run it on a circuit (with a medium TV also turned on) with a 20 amps breaker and never tripped it. So, in my simplistic head I'm thinking I'm pulling maybe 20 amps and 2400 watts max. I would not expect that to bog my unit.

I guess this is similar to other posts about some folks RV A/C units not running. Startup amsp vs. running amps. Perhaps my electric motor doesn't have capacitors? I believe it is a 1.75HP but I don't know about capacitors. I've been told 1 HP = 746 watts, so I'm pulling about (1.75 x 746) = 1305 watts?

I guess I'm just trying to determine if my unit is working OK given it does this bog down on what does not seem like a max load. What do you think?

[MrWizard]

NICE work

and i can see the compartment has a fairly deep/high lip, slides would have been more difficult to install

as long as there is enough clearance on the left side for the left rear corner to swing around , everything should fit fine,

didn't you do an exhaust extension on that powerwise so that exhaust and heat were outside the compartment, i assume you are doing the same mod to the champion

[Index_Jeff]

bobandcat wrote:
I modified the frame on my Champion so that the fuel tank can swing out of the 5'er generator compartment for filling.

Ok, wait.

I see part of the problem. The rv compartment has a lip on the bottom.

Pretty much negates the slide idea. LOL

[Index_Jeff]

bobandcat wrote:
I modified the frame on my Champion so that the fuel tank can swing out of the 5'er generator compartment for filling.

Bob, that looks great !!

And I want to say, KUDOS for you, that you are brave enough to actually modify something like that. Most are too scared, or they just don't know how.

But I have a couple questions...

How is that going to swing aroud like that, once it is installed in that small space ?

Isn't it going to get quite heavy once the gas tank is filled ? How will you be able to lift it, to get it back together again, if you have to reach way up inside like that, and in that small space ?

Wouldn't it have been better to just get some heavy duty drawer slides and attach them so that entire box could be slid out of the compartment, to access the tank ?

[Oldfordman]

MrWizard wrote:

Index Jeff wrote:

AZDesertRat wrote:
You might want to contact Champion about the synthetic oil, when I spoke to them they advised against it for some reason which I do not remember. I use synthetic or synthetic blend in just about every piece of powered equipment I own so I found that odd.

Thank you. I'll check with them.

I thought synthetic was better in every engine.

the people who makes the synthetics will tell you that, but it really does depend on the metallurgy of the engine and the internal tolerances

an engine designed with a heavy viscosity natural oil in mind, can have to much space/play between bearings or other parts when using a thin viscosity synthetic, and even though the synthetic maybe slicker lube, it won't fill in the gap/play and cushion the parts, actually allowing for more wear

Agree on the issue of clearance and the "cushioning" effect of oil.

Champion has offered some information sheets with their generators explaining their recommendation for "Non-Detergent" oils. The state that since these units have no oil pump or filter, they want an oil that will not hold the "crud" in suspension and let it fall to the bottom of the sump. In reality, this unit has a splash/spray lube system. After a couple of hours of continuous running that oil has whipped every particle in the engine into suspension and it won't fall out until the engine is stopped. To see how this is, just put some pepper in salad oil, shake it up. As long as you shake it will stay suspended. Stop and it will settle.

Now for the good part. Try and buy any Non-Detergent oil at an Auto Parts Store. All oils they sell have some detergent additives in them as well as anti-wear agents. Even the Single grade oils. Unless the oil specifically states NON DETERGENT it has detergent in it. What is of further interest is that they recommend that an oil meeting API standards be used. I can't remember the exact Class but it is one that is a "detergent oil".

For my Genset I prefer to use a multi-grade oil. Syntec 20W-50 offers a thin enough oil for cold operation and remains viscous enough for Hot. One of the benefits of multi-graded oils.

As for success with this oil, I have a lawnmower that is 15 years old that has had a steady diet of this and another genset that has over 3,000 hours on the same oil. BTW, it is a honda 6.5 HP powered unit so the engine is similar.

[WaltinColo]

Wheel kit installed! MUCH easier to move around!
Just one question...
The wheel kit didnt come with instructions...
While not rocket science...heh, im still not positive that ive connected the handle correctly...
Anyone have a close up pic of how the handle attaches to the frame?


Walt