3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[VDOCAD]

jasult wrote:
VDOCAD

Did you ever take the bowl off the bottom of carburater?
Float could be sticking or gummed up. Remove air cleaner and float and spray gumout in the bottom to clean out all passagways. It only takes small clog to cause it not to run under heavy load but still runs ok with no load. Pull fuel line off carb and make sure it flows out good and not slow drip out of bottom of tank or the fuel shut off is not restricting fuel flow.

I will try the carb's fuel bowl and see what I find. When I pulled the fuel line from the carb lots of fuel spilled right out.

[VDOCAD]

Skibane wrote:

VDOCAD wrote:
I cannot get the RPM right: checking the microwave's timer against a separate digital timer, the microwave is running too fast(13 sec faster) than my hand held timer. Turning the yellow screw CCW(several turns!!) I can make the microwave's timer match my hand held, but the engine speed is now so slow that the microwave kills it.

Try adding a few hundred watts of load to the generator while you're setting the engine speed to match your hand held timer. With a very light load, the generator may be producing a waveform that "fools" the microwave timer into running fast or slow - adding an additional load may eliminate this.

Also, have you confirmed that the muffler and spark arrestor are not plugged up? This can make the engine lose power.

Yes, I had the converter and small electric fridge running when I tried the adjustment.
I know the spark arrester is clean, I pulled it, but the muffler... how would I know.

[tvman44]

My 3500/4000 Champion will start my 15,000 A/C with no problem. You may try an easy start kit.

[jimmyfred]

Max49 wrote:
I've had my 3500 Champion for a few months now and really like it. It can run 2 electric heaters but I'm not sure if I had them both on the 1500 W setting, plus the converter to keep the batteries charged.
Over the Memorial Day weekend , I used it to power one 13,500 BTU Carrier Air V air conditioner. It seemed to have a terrible time starting the AC when the compressor kicked in. So bad that twice I quickly turned the AC off for fear of damage to the AC. I decided to use the 'onboard' Onan 5500 gen. I was so disappointed.
Several hours later, I decided that if the 3500 running/ 4000 Peak rated Champion could not run one 13500 AC unit , it was terribly, deceptively over rated. I already suspected that it was the same generator that other mfgrs rated at 3000 watt; but that should still be able to start one AC unit with nothing else on, IMO.
Then I decided to turn the AC off, turn the Onan off, and put the Champion in a 'do or die' situation. I turned the AC on and inside the MH I couldn't hear the Champion but the AC unit sounded very much like it was going stall out but then it caught it's breath, and starting pumping out cold air. My wife had it running for several hours and it seemed to be fine.
Has any one else's 3500 Champ had trouble starting a 13500 AC unit? Is any damage being done to the genny or the AC unit while it is struggling to get started?

...........Try switching your frig over too propane , then see if it will start the air unit! Might need a starter capacitor on the compressor !? , jf

[blkfe]

Max49 wrote:
I've had my 3500 Champion for a few months now and really like it. It can run 2 electric heaters but I'm not sure if I had them both on the 1500 W setting, plus the converter to keep the batteries charged.
Over the Memorial Day weekend , I used it to power one 13,500 BTU Carrier Air V air conditioner. It seemed to have a terrible time starting the AC when the compressor kicked in. So bad that twice I quickly turned the AC off for fear of damage to the AC. I decided to use the 'onboard' Onan 5500 gen. I was so disappointed.
Several hours later, I decided that if the 3500 running/ 4000 Peak rated Champion could not run one 13500 AC unit , it was terribly, deceptively over rated. I already suspected that it was the same generator that other mfgrs rated at 3000 watt; but that should still be able to start one AC unit with nothing else on, IMO.
Then I decided to turn the AC off, turn the Onan off, and put the Champion in a 'do or die' situation. I turned the AC on and inside the MH I couldn't hear the Champion but the AC unit sounded very much like it was going stall out but then it caught it's breath, and starting pumping out cold air. My wife had it running for several hours and it seemed to be fine.
Has any one else's 3500 Champ had trouble starting a 13500 AC unit? Is any damage being done to the genny or the AC unit while it is struggling to get started?

I have an older rv with a 13.5 ac. My champion wont start the ac unless I put the fan on manual and use the thrmostst to engage the compressor only. Doing this way has ALWAYS worked. I,m guessing starting both the fan motor and compressor motor at the same time requires too much inrush current.
Brad

[Max49]

I've had my 3500 Champion for a few months now and really like it. It can run 2 electric heaters but I'm not sure if I had them both on the 1500 W setting, plus the converter to keep the batteries charged.
Over the Memorial Day weekend , I used it to power one 13,500 BTU Carrier Air V air conditioner. It seemed to have a terrible time starting the AC when the compressor kicked in. So bad that twice I quickly turned the AC off for fear of damage to the AC. I decided to use the 'onboard' Onan 5500 gen. I was so disappointed.
Several hours later, I decided that if the 3500 running/ 4000 Peak rated Champion could not run one 13500 AC unit , it was terribly, deceptively over rated. I already suspected that it was the same generator that other mfgrs rated at 3000 watt; but that should still be able to start one AC unit with nothing else on, IMO.
Then I decided to turn the AC off, turn the Onan off, and put the Champion in a 'do or die' situation. I turned the AC on and inside the MH I couldn't hear the Champion but the AC unit sounded very much like it was going stall out but then it caught it's breath, and starting pumping out cold air. My wife had it running for several hours and it seemed to be fine.
Has any one else's 3500 Champ had trouble starting a 13500 AC unit? Is any damage being done to the genny or the AC unit while it is struggling to get started?

[jasult]

VDOCAD

Did you ever take the bowl off the bottom of carburater?
Float could be sticking or gummed up. Remove air cleaner and float and spray gumout in the bottom to clean out all passagways. It only takes small clog to cause it not to run under heavy load but still runs ok with no load. Pull fuel line off carb and make sure it flows out good and not slow drip out of bottom of tank or the fuel shut off is not restricting fuel flow.

[Skibane]

VDOCAD wrote:
I cannot get the RPM right: checking the microwave's timer against a separate digital timer, the microwave is running too fast(13 sec faster) than my hand held timer. Turning the yellow screw CCW(several turns!!) I can make the microwave's timer match my hand held, but the engine speed is now so slow that the microwave kills it.

Try adding a few hundred watts of load to the generator while you're setting the engine speed to match your hand held timer. With a very light load, the generator may be producing a waveform that "fools" the microwave timer into running fast or slow - adding an additional load may eliminate this.

Also, have you confirmed that the muffler and spark arrestor are not plugged up? This can make the engine lose power.

[Wrace]

snarfattack wrote:

Yes, but not from Champion at the moment. Not sure if they will have a kit with the new electric start unit coming out though. There have been rumors of it, the person who will know for sure is going to be Randy (Professor). In the absence of a kit from champion, at least a couple people have successfully used this kit, and it's documented in this thread a few (hundred) pages back ;).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ELECTRIC-START-KIT-FITS-HONDA-GX160-5-5-HP-AND-6-5-HP-/350337668107?cmd=ViewItem...

BTW, when the link to the item dies here is a search link to this same sellers ads:

http://stores.ebay.com/PG-Parts-RECREATIONAL-INDUSTRIAL__W0QQ_sidZ8322196?_nkw=electric+start&submit...

Thank you. I would like to have one installed by storm season, say October.

Edited to add: Just read Professors reply and I think I'll hang out for a couple months and try and snag a champion kit.

[VDOCAD]

I got a lemon Champion Genny... I just want to share with you guys my experience since my next step will be to take it to the dump.
I have a 46540 RV Ready genny that worked great for the first 400 hrs. I did all the maintenance as required by the manual. It is mounted on a sliding shelf in my MH compartment. The loads have not changed: A/C, Microwave, TV, DVD player, Small electric fridge. The genny could handle everything and only with the larger loads, the speed changed for a second or so. After 400 Hrs of use, it began to bog down a lot when using the Microwave or the A/C. I PM the The Professor who suggested I needed a new carb.
I called Champion and spoke with all the Gurus, Paul, Jim, now Juan. They ruled out the carburetor from the start(??). They had me do all kinds of checks and adjustments(Valves, RPM, Electrical output,...)
Now, Juan tells me the engine is shot and I need to rebuild it but that I might as well get a new one. AFTER ONLY 600 HRS??

Now this is the situation: genny works great on everything except microwave or A/C(serious speed change, but works). Also I cannot get the RPM right: checking the microwave's timer against a separate digital timer, the microwave is running too fast(13 sec faster) than my hand held timer. Turning the yellow screw CCW(several turns!!) I can make the microwave's timer match my hand held, but the engine speed is now so slow that the microwave kills it. Any ideas before the dump?

PS: no intention to hijack this thread; if I should post somewhere else let me know.

[jlaustin]

I've been running some tests on the DuroPower 3500ES to get establish some sort of temperature profile. I've chosen to monitor the generator cooling air exhaust at the mid-portion of the exhaust fins about 2 cm away from the fins ... this seems to be where the exhaust air is hottest. I'm sure some of this may be an apples and oranges comparison to other's temp measurements as slight repositioning of the probe can alter results markedly. If I understand the Professor correctly, he has suggested that 190 degrees should be the max temp for the generator as wiring insulation could break down above this point. I'm not sure if my measurement point really correlates well with the wiring temperature - obviously a lot of the wiring and electronics are way upstream from my measuring point, but I assume it would at least be a good place to set a conservative limit!

What I'm seeing is that with mid-80's ambients and the trailer/generator sitting on a sunny concrete drive (prob not the best for cooling versus parked on grass!) is that the unloaded generator has a "normal" basal temperature in the low 160's. If the generator has been loaded and heated up well, it cools back down to the low 170's when unloaded.

When I apply what I suspect is the "worst-case" test, i.e., continuous running of the 15K BTU A/C (no cycling on/off of compressor), mid-80's ambients, parked on sunny concrete, etc., there is a slow but inexorable climb in the generator exhaust temperature. I have the 500 cfm ventilation fan on a 140 degree switch. (Its sensor is also in the generator exhaust air). It is actually kicking in at 150 degrees. This takes about 15 minutes from a cold start to get to 150 and the fan. It then takes about another 30-45 minutes to slowly get the temp up to 190 degrees. If you cycle the compressor, the temp drops 15-20 degrees in about 5 minutes or so, so it appears the cooling ability of the generator's fan and the ventilation fan is effective.

I've yet to put an effective heat shield between the generator and the enclosed muffler, but I plan to do that soon. My brother is bringing me a generous piece of the adhesive reflective shield intended to protect floorboards form catalytic converters, etc., and that should help some. I have an old insulated starter cover draped over the generator head right now, but since it covers both sides and the top, it is probably holding heat IN the generator - I'd probably be better off to remove it for now.

I did a slight enhancement of the cooling ability of the generator by cutting the louvers out of the generator intake cover (to further unrestrict it) and put a shroud over the intake to ensure that cooling air comes from below the genset and no hot air is being recirculated. Here's some pics:





What you can't see in the last pic is that the entire end of the genset is enclosed by a panel, so that is why there is a possibility for some hot air to be recirculated and therefore why I think the shroud is an improvement. It is a friction-fit at the moment - I might have to use a few rivets to secure it to the remains of the generator intake cover if it starts getting loose. The "mailbox" looking thing next to generator is the muffler that is enclosed in an insulated cover - the exhaust exits straight out the bottom, pointed at the ground.

I'll report back after I get the reflective insulation in place.

Regards,
John

[W8NONU]

Nice. Thanks for the info. Just what I've been waiting for.

[professor95]

Here is the latest on the new Remote Controlled and Electric Start Champion.

Costco now has the unit advertised online at

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11536999&search=champion&Mo=2&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search?=en-US&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Sp=S&N=5000043&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=Text_Search&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=champion&Ntt=champion&No=0&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

as I write. Cut and paste the entire mammoth URL into your browser - the link feature for the forum will not accept an URL so long. Don't worry about the grin icons in the URL - it works with them in there as they are translated back to their original symbols.

But, it WILL NOT be available for actual shipment until July 1st. It might be a good idea to go ahead and submit an order if you want an early model/shipment. I have a feeling these little buggers will sell quickly. Note the shipping and handling charges ARE INCLUDED in the $479.00 price tag as is the battery and wheel kit.

Note also the 1 + 1 warranty. First year is parts and labor, 2nd year is parts. The second year item is new. Since most of us do our own repairs that looks like a good thing.

[professor95]

Wrace wrote:
I suspect this question has been addressed in this thread previously, but I am unaware if the thread itself is searchable by subject.

I have a C46540 and was wondering if there is an electric start kit available for this unit?

Thanks

Snarfatack gave you the best answer.

SuperGen Products reports that they will also have an ES kit ready for shipment by the end of July. The projected price is about the same as the eBay listings. The major difference might be the cost of shipping since the SuperGen product will come from the USA rather than Canada.

The conversion is relatively easy. I've done it to two manual start units - my pressure washer and log splitter (Tecumseh engine died, replaced it with a Chinese GX200 clone). It was worth every penny spent!

[snarfattack]

Wrace wrote:
I suspect this question has been addressed in this thread previously, but I am unaware if the thread itself is searchable by subject.

I have a C46540 and was wondering if there is an electric start kit available for this unit?

Thanks

Yes, but not from Champion at the moment. Not sure if they will have a kit with the new electric start unit coming out though. There have been rumors of it, the person who will know for sure is going to be Randy (Professor). In the absence of a kit from champion, at least a couple people have successfully used this kit, and it's documented in this thread a few (hundred) pages back ;).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ELECTRIC-START-KIT-FITS-HONDA-GX160-5-5-HP-AND-6-5-HP-/350337668107?cmd=ViewItem...

BTW, when the link to the item dies here is a search link to this same sellers ads:

http://stores.ebay.com/PG-Parts-RECREATIONAL-INDUSTRIAL__W0QQ_sidZ8322196?_nkw=electric+start&submit...