3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[pritch272]

joel, that sounds a lot like the champion, isn't the champ rated at 68db at 21 feet? The pics seem to look like a champ. (of course excluding the ES).

[professor95]

77charger wrote:
professor when the champ was new it fired up the a/c without a struggle just a quick surge on the gen(like 1/2 second)and the a/c was blowin.(you couldnt tell unless you were outside)

After a couple years it was almost dying to do so.even other smaller loads you can tell it was effecting the champ compared to when it was new.

There are at least three situations that could cause this. One, as previously cited, is loss of engine power. A compression check will go a long, long way to verify if wear in the cylinder or burnt valves are to blame. Of course, mis-adjusted valves with the incorrect rocker arm clearance could cause a similar loss of power as could carbon build-up in the exhaust or exhaust port. Any small engine with 400+ hours on it will experience some power loss - it is normal.

If you have ever had the opportunity to see a stator that has been unwound or sawed open, you will note thousands of turns of small diameter wires coated with a brown varnish insulation. If, primarily due to heat, this insulation breaks down a "short" can occur inside the windings effectively eliminating hundreds of turns of wire from the circuit. The shorted windings translate to a lesser magnetic field and consequently less power from the stator. This is where my "190 degree" temperature caution comes into play - temperatures over 190 will quickly cause break down of the winding insulation. Since temperatures are higher near the core, where no appreciable air circulates, this is the natural place for a fault.

The starting circuit in the air conditioner itself is aging. Over time capacitors will loose dielectric strength along with the ability to give the needed kick to the motor.

While the ratings of 3,000; 3,500; 4,000 or even 4,400 watts often appear in product advertising for 200 CC Chinese generators they are indeed overzealous. A rating of 4,000 PEAK watts is equivalent to 4,000 x .707 or 2,800 watts - which is what I have advocated all along is the true rated output of the 3,000 to 3,500 watt Chinese generators.

We can neither create or destroy energy - we can only convert it to another form. Likewise, we can't get more directly usable power out of a machine than we put into it. With a generator there is a point of diminishing returns that is a result of the magnetic field it is capable of creating. As the strength of the field increases, so does the load on the engine and the production of an unwanted conversion byproduct - heat.

Surge power, or the ability of a magnetic field generator to produce for a short period of time more power than it typically generates when the engine is operating at or near it's maximum power level is dependent upon the "flux field" that surrounds the core (sounds like comic book Si-Fi). When energy demands exceed the core capacity the flux field collapses and is absorbed by the core and passed as a surge of power to the load. The larger the magnetic field and the more dense the core the greater the surge capacity. The ability of the 3,000 watt class Chinese generator to provide high surge currents just is not there.

Overall, we are running these gennys like Indy race cars yet expecting them to go 100,000 miles. We are not going to get cheap (meaning low cost) generators that produce reduced sound levels and still maintain optimum performance for hundreds and hundreds of hours.

IMHO, for what they are designed for, the 3,000 watt class Chinese genset is an amazing little creature that gives a lot of performance for the bucks invested.

I am not arguing for anything by writing this. I only hope to offer a review of some general principles and expectations related to these machines.

[joelchappell]

jlaustin wrote:

joelchappell wrote:

If you are interested in the Camper it's going in there are some pix here VW BUS

From the size of that camper, looks like you don't need the gennie ... I think a couple of AA flashlight batteries ought to do it!:B
Regards,
John

True, but that's wrong!

[madbare]

For those interested in the new genset at Costco, I just got the latest coupon book and they will have it on sale starting June 10th for $379 and that still includes shipping.

[jlaustin]

joelchappell wrote:

If you are interested in the Camper it's going in there are some pix here VW BUS

From the size of that camper, looks like you don't need the gennie ... I think a couple of AA flashlight batteries ought to do it!:B
Regards,
John

[VDOCAD]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
VDOCAD - if you are in Arcadia as your ID indicates - why not *physically* take the gen to Champion and ask them to check it out and give you a verdict?

The forum folks don't realize how close you are to Champ HQ in Santa Fe Springs (30-40 minutes?).

Or won't they do that? (Be interesting to know).

~
JC

Yes I should change my location, but I really do not have one yet! I am near Richmond, VA in the process of relocating, but my new home could be anywhere...

[joelchappell]

Received the Lifan 3500E generator. It has exceeded my expectations.
Pulled it out of the box and it is great. It is compact, and quiet. How quiet?

My buddy, who is a Kipor ambassador, and I serviced it up and got ready to pull the cord (haven't installed the battery yet). I looked at him, he looked at me, I pulled the cord once, turned on the choke pulled it a 2nd time and it fired right up. We waited for it to idle up and were both very puzzled as it didn't get loud. I thought something was wrong. I wish you could have seen the look on his face (probably mine too). I was prepared to jump through hoops to build multi layered cabinets and custom mufflers. This will be easy.

I am installing it on my 70 VW camper. I think my months of research paid off.

68db at 21 feet, measured with a pro spl meter at 21 feet. "A" weighted. (For those who are confused about the difference between "A" weighted and "C" weighted measuring, "C" weighted reads all frequencies and always produces a higher reading as it is more sensitive, "A" weighted only reads those frequencies that the human ear processes, so it is more accurate to the levels that you hear. (That is why many companies are beginning to include "A" weighted readings in the specs).

Anyway, before you chime in with the Honda 55-58db "standard for quiet", let me tell you that in my opinion that is hogwash. Here is why.

I took readings on a Troy-bilt 5500 genny, open frame, and a Kipor IG3000 Sinewave closed frame genny. The readings were:

Troy-bilt - ridiculously loud 101 db at 21 feet
Kipor - energy saver mode 58 db at 21 feet, but throttled up to run the camper it was 68db at 21 feet.

The reason I think that the 55-58db standard is hogwash is because you can't run anything significant at idle. And when in energy saver mode, if the a/c turns on, many times the idle up isn't quick enough to service the ac turning on, so what's the point? If all you want is to top off batteries, the quiet modes will work for you. But my application requires high current all of the time.

For my own studies, I am using only 21 feet for measure, only at full load (a/c running). I am interested in real world application, not bench test figures.

All of that to say, I am very pleasantly surprised at how the Lifan performs, how quiet it is and how small it is at 17" wide x 17" tall by 22" long (without the wheel kit).

I know I don't post here much but I thought maybe someone going through the same process as me would benefit from my findings.

Here are pix of the Lifan.








If you are interested in the Camper it's going in there are some pix here VW BUS

Contrasting views welcomed. If there is some test I can do for you to help you decide which genny to purchase, let me know.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

VDOCAD - if you are in Arcadia as your ID indicates - why not *physically* take the gen to Champion and ask them to check it out and give you a verdict?

The forum folks don't realize how close you are to Champ HQ in Santa Fe Springs (30-40 minutes?).

Or won't they do that? (Be interesting to know).

~
JC

[77charger]

professor when the champ was new it fired up the a/c without a struggle just a quick surge on the gen(like 1/2 second)and the a/c was blowin.(you couldnt tell unless you were outside)

After a couple years it was almost dying to do so.even other smaller loads you can tell it was effecting the champ compared to when it was new.

[77charger]

professor when the champ was new it fired up the a/c without a struggle just a quick surge on the gen(like 1/2 second)and the a/c was blowin.(you couldnt tell unless you were outside)

After a couple years it was almost dying to do so.even other smaller loads you can tell it was effecting the champ compared to when it was new.

[professor95]

77charger wrote:
VDOCAD i had similar experience with my champion worked really good when new but after a couple of years it would struggle to run the same loads it did so easy.

I can say i probably had over 400 hours on it and i do feel i got my 300 bucks worth of it.And it is a good buy for the price no doubt about it.

As for wattage after buying a 3000 honda i feel that the champ might be a lil overrated.It struggled to power my air compressor i can manually pick up the rpm to get it started it did fine.My honda fires it up easily

Please keep in mind that all electric/compressor motors have a LRC (Locked Rotor Current) rating that is often 3X to 5X their running current. Think of it like the pull it takes to get your RV rolling when starting on a steep upgrade. If my memory is correct, I believe the LRC for a 13,500 BTU RV air conditioner with a pancake compressor is 56 amps (6,720 watts). With R-22 refrigerant, the compressor is starting with a static head pressure of around 140 psi. The running current for the same A/C compressor is around 17 amps with the fan (2,040 watts). The Champion, as well as a slew of other 3,000 watt class Chinese synchronous generators using a GX-200 size engine have a surge current rating of no more than 4,000 watts. It should be expected to bog down and struggle when being asked to compensate for the missing 2,700 watts of surge power.

The newer scroll compressors have a similar LRC rating but the time the surge from the generator is needed to get the compressor moving is less than 1/3 of that needed by the old style compressors.

[77charger]

VDOCAD i had similar experience with my champion worked really good when new but after a couple of years it would struggle to run the same loads it did so easy.

I can say i probably had over 400 hours on it and i do feel i got my 300 bucks worth of it.And it is a good buy for the price no doubt about it.

As for wattage after buying a 3000 honda i feel that the champ might be a lil overrated.It struggled to power my air compressor i can manually pick up the rpm to get it started it did fine.My honda fires it up easily

[professor95]

Max49 wrote:
I've had my 3500 Champion for a few months now and really like it. It can run 2 electric heaters but I'm not sure if I had them both on the 1500 W setting, plus the converter to keep the batteries charged.
Over the Memorial Day weekend , I used it to power one 13,500 BTU Carrier Air V air conditioner. It seemed to have a terrible time starting the AC when the compressor kicked in. So bad that twice I quickly turned the AC off for fear of damage to the AC. I decided to use the 'onboard' Onan 5500 gen. I was so disappointed.
Several hours later, I decided that if the 3500 running/ 4000 Peak rated Champion could not run one 13500 AC unit , it was terribly, deceptively over rated. I already suspected that it was the same generator that other mfgrs rated at 3000 watt; but that should still be able to start one AC unit with nothing else on, IMO.
Then I decided to turn the AC off, turn the Onan off, and put the Champion in a 'do or die' situation. I turned the AC on and inside the MH I couldn't hear the Champion but the AC unit sounded very much like it was going stall out but then it caught it's breath, and starting pumping out cold air. My wife had it running for several hours and it seemed to be fine.
Has any one else's 3500 Champ had trouble starting a 13500 AC unit? Is any damage being done to the genny or the AC unit while it is struggling to get started?

Older 13,500 BTU air conditioners had "pancake" compressors. Newer model 13.5 and 15K BTU use a "scroll" compressor. The locked rotor current on a pancake compressor is much greater than a scroll. The older A/C units need something to store energy and give them a kick to get going. This is done with a capacitor that will collect energy and then release it a few fractions of a second later to help get the compressor started. Many times the capacitor ages and the dialectic breaks down causing it to store significantly less energy to get things rolling.

I would suggest replacing or adding to the existing capacitor what is know as a hard start kit. It is actually a new capacitor with a higher energy storage rating. Your RV dealer should have them in stock, if not you can order from the link above. In virtually all situations where a 3,500 watt Chinese generator is having difficulty starting an A/C compressor, this will fix the problem.

[Skibane]

VDOCAD wrote:
I know the spark arrester is clean, I pulled it, but the muffler... how would I know.

Well, the quick-and-dirty way would be to temporarily remove the muffler, put on a set of good hearing protectors, and fire 'er up! :B

You'll probably want to have a new gasket for the muffler mounting flange on hand, since the old one may not seal properly if you try to re-use it.

[professor95]

VDOCAD wrote:
I got a lemon Champion Genny... I just want to share with you guys my experience since my next step will be to take it to the dump.
I have a 46540 RV Ready genny that worked great for the first 400 hrs. I did all the maintenance as required by the manual. It is mounted on a sliding shelf in my MH compartment. The loads have not changed: A/C, Microwave, TV, DVD player, Small electric fridge. The genny could handle everything and only with the larger loads, the speed changed for a second or so. After 400 Hrs of use, it began to bog down a lot when using the Microwave or the A/C. I PM the The Professor who suggested I needed a new carb.
I called Champion and spoke with all the Gurus, Paul, Jim, now Juan. They ruled out the carburetor from the start(??). They had me do all kinds of checks and adjustments(Valves, RPM, Electrical output,...)
Now, Juan tells me the engine is shot and I need to rebuild it but that I might as well get a new one. AFTER ONLY 600 HRS??

Now this is the situation: genny works great on everything except microwave or A/C(serious speed change, but works). Also I cannot get the RPM right: checking the microwave's timer against a separate digital timer, the microwave is running too fast(13 sec faster) than my hand held timer. Turning the yellow screw CCW(several turns!!) I can make the microwave's timer match my hand held, but the engine speed is now so slow that the microwave kills it. Any ideas before the dump?

PS: no intention to hijack this thread; if I should post somewhere else let me know.

I really don't think you can call it a lemon after 600 hours of use. Most small engines are only rated for a 500 hour lifespan.

Anyway, I am still of the opinion the variable speed and lack of response are related to the carburetor. The reason I suggested a new one is the time spent trying to clean out an almost microscopic obstruction in the jetting is greater than the $36 for a new carb.

As far as the engine being worn out and needing a rebuild - I doubt that. Before you take it to the dump run a compression check. You will need to borrow a gauge from an auto parts store like AutoZone. If your cylinder pressure is 70 psi or greater your engine is NOT worn out. If I get a lower reading I remove the gauge and put a couple of squirts of oil in the spark plug hole and take the reading again. If there is an appreciable gain in compression I know the problem is worn rings. If there is no gain in compression I suspect a burnt valve.

No one can fix your problem over the phone or on-line without some essential data. If you suspect a worn out engine, the compression check is one of those items.