3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[W8NONU]

What kind of modifications would the 46538 need to convert to LP? Would the existing electric and remote start system work with the LP conversion?

There is a $19 surcharge for non-members. That's cheaper than getting the $50 membership that I wouldn't use.

You can also ship to multiple addresses under one username.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

W8NONU -
Don't think it's that easy - using somebody else's Costco member #,
and/or very complicated trying to have somebody buy one and shipped to you (then reimbursed).

Members: You need to log on with an ID and PW (obviously member name & # sensitive)
Then to order they need a CC # - which (I guess) might not work with a name other than the member, etc.

Possibly a lot of info "compromised" - without any guarantee of success.

Think a solution would be to:
Find a close friend or relative (near your location) to order one for you.

-or-

have somebody you know buy a limited time membership "gift certificate" -
which (I guess) would/should be less than a full membership(?) - and you would be able to do the above yourself.

I've seen those in the stores - and can only guess they are available all the time(?).

Maybe somebody else here will have some other solution/s.

~

JC

[professor95]

The 46538 electric start/remote control Champion generators are here. Orders placed through Costco will be shipped from Champion's Santa Fe Springs warehouse. Price is $379 to Costco members with the sale coupon. Price includes shipping.

The 2,000 watt digital/inverter generator for the USA is not ready. A 1,000 watt digital built by Kipor but displaying a Champion label is being sold ONLY in Canada.

[W8NONU]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

madbare wrote:
For those interested in the new genset at Costco, I just got the latest coupon book and they will have it on sale starting June 10th for $379 and that still includes shipping.

Costco shows the Champ 3000/3500 Model #45638 (electric start w/ remote & wheel kit) CARB & EPA compliant on their web site at $479. (shipping incl). Costco item #525039 - enter "Generator" in the Costco search box.

~

:C
Advertised in the back of the Costco coupon book -
"Exclusive On-Line Offers" - so *NO* coupon required.

:B Guess the reduced price will be on Costco's site on June 10th. :B

~

JC

Good Deal - especially for those who waited!
BTW: Valid June 10 - July 3, 2010

~

The deal gets even better. Anyone want to buy me a generator using their member#? There aren't any Costcos near me to enjoy the benefits.

[professor95]

Skibane wrote:
Fascinating post, Prof!

Provided the raw parts are properly machined, assembled and tested, all of the GX200 clone engines should give identical performance and lifespan.

Some engine parts are available in different grades - Bearings, seats, seals and gaskets for example. So, opportunities for a manufacturer to "go cheap" do still exist.

Yes, they do. But,from what I have found all of the GX200 clones have cast iron sleeves, no rod or main bearings and roller bearings on the crank ends.

I'm not trying to do an advertisement but I am aware that Champion has made some changes to their 200cc generator engine. Redesigned rocker arms that are stronger and will not rotate, double lip oil seal on the drive side of the crankshaft, and redesigned low oil shut down float switch to prevent sticking are the major changes.

I cannot say that other engine builders have not made similar changes. But, I do know the current model of the Jiang Dong 200cc engine on a Harbor Freight generator is identical to the one on my five year old ELM3000. JD is possibly the largest of the Chinese engine/generator manufacturers selling their products to scores of distributors under many different brand names.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

madbare wrote:
For those interested in the new genset at Costco, I just got the latest coupon book and they will have it on sale starting June 10th for $379 and that still includes shipping.

Costco shows the Champ 3000/3500 Model #45638 (electric start w/ remote & wheel kit) CARB & EPA compliant on their web site at $479. (shipping incl). Costco item #525039 - enter "Generator" in the Costco search box.

~

:C
Advertised in the back of the Costco coupon book -
"Exclusive On-Line Offers" - so *NO* coupon required.

:B Guess the reduced price will be on Costco's site on June 10th. :B

~

JC

Good Deal - especially for those who waited!
BTW: Valid June 10 - July 3, 2010

~

[Skibane]

Fascinating post, Prof!

Provided the raw parts are properly machined, assembled and tested, all of the GX200 clone engines should give identical performance and lifespan.

Some engine parts are available in different grades - Bearings, seats, seals and gaskets for example. So, opportunities for a manufacturer to "go cheap" do still exist.

[professor95]

joelchappell wrote:
Part no. for engine of the Champion 40051 - ST168F-2-1000000G

Part No. for engine of the Lifan 3500E LF168F-2

Similarities in the part numbers? who knows.

The similarity between 3,000 watt class Chinese open frame synchronous generators - especially engines, is no coincidence.

Casting engine blocks, cranks, pistons, heads, alternator shells, etc. is not an inexpensive or easy to create start-up business. Neither is the investment required to do the stamping of steel into the desired shape for a fuel tank, engine fan shroud or muffler. Even the little parts like ball bearings in the recoil starter, ignition coils, rubber motor mounts, etc. are items that a small company could not afford to manufacturer in-house.

Builders of these generators prefer to purchase "raw" parts from the larger manufacturers and do the needed machining, sheet metal fabrication, tube bending for the frame, wiring and controls within their own facility. This is what makes the "differences" between these gensets. BTW, the majority of these Chinese gensets DO NOT come to the USA. Over 85% of all the units manufactured go to other countries! New rules by our EPA slated to go into effect by 2012 may reduce that number even further.

At one time I made an attempt to create a family tree of sorts to show where the parts trail started and how all of the many companies building almost identical appearing generators operated. It was s futile effort that was out-of-date before I ever got a fraction of the way into detail.

There are (or were) two large foundries that did the castings and forgings for all of the major engine/alternator parts. Jinan Liaoyuan Machine Co. LTD is believed to be the largest supplier of these parts to the Chinese sub-industries. That particular foundry may be the link to your "LF" number (Liaoyuan Foundry???).

If you ever have a Chinese genny engine disassembled, you can usually find the foundry name inside.



The difference in, for example, the GX200 type engine from company to company is in the machining. They all use essentially the same castings. There can be differences in rockers, push rods, piston and ring sizes - but cranks, rods, flywheels, ignition, carburetors and the like are essentially identical. Provided the raw parts are properly machined, assembled and tested, all of the GX200 clone engines should give identical performance and lifespan.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

madbare wrote:
For those interested in the new genset at Costco, I just got the latest coupon book and they will have it on sale starting June 10th for $379 and that still includes shipping.

Costco shows the Champ 3000/3500 Model #45638 (electric start w/ remote & wheel kit) CARB & EPA compliant on their web site at $479. (shipping incl). Costco item #525039 - enter "Generator" in the Costco search box.

~

:C
Advertised in the back of the Costco coupon book -
"Exclusive On-Line Offers" - so *NO* coupon required.

:B Guess the reduced price will be on Costco's site on June 10th. :B

~

JC

[joelchappell]

MrWizard wrote:
Looks like a casting number from the motor case ,
Or Did you get those numbers from a catalog, parts list
Its very possible that the motor castings came fro
m.the.same foundry and that would explain the.similarity of the numbers

joelchappell wrote:
Part no. for engine of the Champion 40051 - ST168F-2-1000000G

Part No. for engine of the Lifan 3500E LF168F-2

Similarities in the part numbers? who knows.

I just looked at the parts breakdown for each generator at their respective sites.

[MrWizard]

Looks like a casting number from the motor case ,
Or Did you get those numbers from a catalog, parts list
Its very possible that the motor castings came fro
m.the.same foundry and that would explain the.similarity of the numbers

joelchappell wrote:
Part no. for engine of the Champion 40051 - ST168F-2-1000000G

Part No. for engine of the Lifan 3500E LF168F-2

Similarities in the part numbers? who knows.

[77charger]

Professor thanks for the breakdown on the gens.

And i do agree and have said it for awhile the cost for the performance you get for the dollar is very hard to beat.Where i camp at noise really aint an issue a champ sounds like a honda idiling with all the dirtbikes and buggies running around and a honda you forget you have it on.

I never thought the champ was excessively loud nor honda quiet but alot better than the contractor grade genset.If they were still 300 here in ca i would have bought another one but they are now 450 plus tax which will put it over 500.

[joelchappell]

Part no. for engine of the Champion 40051 - ST168F-2-1000000G

Part No. for engine of the Lifan 3500E LF168F-2

Similarities in the part numbers? who knows.

[joelchappell]

pritch272 wrote:
joel, that sounds a lot like the champion, isn't the champ rated at 68db at 21 feet? The pics seem to look like a champ. (of course excluding the ES).

I agree. All I know is that in my research on Lifan I found this description of the company:

Lifan was founded in 1991 by Mr. Ying Mingshan, after being released from a Government Work Camp, where he was imprisoned by the Mao Regime for teaching Capitalists Fundamentals as a college professor. Financed originally with $25,000 from profits he made from publishing an English Book. Originally employing 9 people doing R&D work on motorcycle engines and developing engines for 3 manufacturers to now employing over 12,000 people and gross sales worldwide of over 1.3 Billion Dollars. Having followed Honda’s Business Plan, Lifan now manufacturers Automobiles, Trucks, Buses, Motorcycles, Generators, Pressure Washers, Lawnmowers, and many more products. Lifan is the largest privately held company in China and the largest exporter in China. A brand name in many countries including Indonesia, Nigeria, all of SE Asia and establishing a brand name quickly in South America and Europe.

2008 Company Statistics

Sales: $1.65 Billion
Exports to US: $417 Million
Employees: Over 14,000
Three Core Divisions: Power Products, Automobiles, Power Sport Products

Lifan Achievements:

- Largest Manufacturer of Engines Worldwide Holder of 3712 Domestic and International Patents

- Largest Exporter in the Industry

- Largest Privately Owned Company in China

- First Privately Owned State Level R&D Institute Certified by the Chinese Government

- Listed Among the Fortune 500 Companies in China

- Ranked 36th Most Competitive Chinese Company




All of that from their website, but too detailed to be fluff I think. The customer support seems alright. I called in to ask a question, got a real person, real fast and they took care of an answer instantly.

I wonder if the champion has the Lifan 168F-2 motor on their 3500?

[VDOCAD]

professor95 wrote:

I really don't think you can call it a lemon after 600 hours of use. Most small engines are only rated for a 500 hour lifespan.

Anyway, I am still of the opinion the variable speed and lack of response are related to the carburetor. The reason I suggested a new one is the time spent trying to clean out an almost microscopic obstruction in the jetting is greater than the $36 for a new carb.

As far as the engine being worn out and needing a rebuild - I doubt that. Before you take it to the dump run a compression check. You will need to borrow a gauge from an auto parts store like AutoZone. If your cylinder pressure is 70 psi or greater your engine is NOT worn out. If I get a lower reading I remove the gauge and put a couple of squirts of oil in the spark plug hole and take the reading again. If there is an appreciable gain in compression I know the problem is worn rings. If there is no gain in compression I suspect a burnt valve.

No one can fix your problem over the phone or on-line without some essential data. If you suspect a worn out engine, the compression check is one of those items.

Thanks Professor, your input is always welcomed. I will try the compression test.

With no desire to make this a hot issue or start a long discussion, I am to blame for assuming this type of generator would be a good substitute for an RV genny. I remember reading somewhere that Mr Wizard(I think) uses it everyday and has accumulated around 2000 hrs or so. I get it, such case is not the norm, my bad. I did get my $$ worth out of it.
According to Jim(CPE Auto) a complete head assembly is only around $50. Not bad should I decide to keep it.

Thanks