3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[Wrace]

professor95 wrote:


The air in the camper shell heated up quickly -- too quickly. I ended up having to put a 20" box fan at the front of the bed where the slider window was open to blow air out the open rear hatch over the tailgate.

This was the weekend that my AVR failed - possibly due to too much heat.

That's actually a bit depressing now that I think about it. If I need to leave all the topper windows open and possibly add a fan just to keep the thing cool enough, then any sound suppression added by the topper is likely diminished greatly.

I cannot lift that generator into or out of the truck without the forklift or autolift, and the truck bed is the only possible place for it in my situation. Further, I don't want to build such an elaborate cooling/ventalation system that makes getting it into/out of the bed a bigger hassle as I need the bed clear during my everyday non-camping activities.

If a standalone cover somewhat similar to what I described could be made with the necessary fans/vents/air-flow built into the cover, and still be manageable for installation over the gen while in the bed of the truck I might have something workable. Maybe with a 7 pin pigtail that could be run over the tailgate and down to the 7 pin at the rear hitch receiver to provide 12V power for the fans. Then leave all four windows on the topper open and hope the cover with built-in cooling can do the job.

I use this same gen with the wheel/handle kit for power outages at home and construction at our rural property so I don't want to build a permanent type cover onto the generator.

I will get through the coming weekend, but looking ahead, my wife and I want to do more boondocking and non-hook-up camping, and feel the unabated noise of the open frame generators to be too disruptive (for our enjoyment). I have no idea if solar is even an option for us as we camp mostly in heavily tree'd campgrounds and actively seek out sites that have a good sun-blocking canopy around them. I'm guessing that at least some sun is required for actual solar operation. 🙂

It may be that the one generator (champion in this case) cannot fulfill some of the requirements for the various applications we want to use it for. Not a knock in anyway against the champion as it has been a great generator for us and is a tremendous value, but it can't be everything to everybody.

[Bluestreak]

Joel-

Thanks for the clip, just what the doctor ordered! Did you happen to make any measurements with the generator un-boxed and out in the parking lot?

Prof95:

Thanks for the details on the generator. I'm reading through the forum slowly, but can you say if anyone has tried anything like Dynamat applied to the crankcase? I have no idea if the temperature would be a problem, but getting some constrained layer damping on the crankcase sounds like it would be productive...

BTW, I'm putting my order in for the generator this morning...

[Old___Slow]

Joel,

You do know how to make this old man jealous. Just seeing the VW Van brought back memories. Bought a new Winnabago MH in 1972 and headed to Aspen, Co and the Blue Bell mountians. While there, most of the campers were in VW Love (bug) Vans. Those same folks (the yuppie's)turned into the upper class with the big houses with BMW's and ect. But, their life style made an impression never to be forgotton. At 50 I laid down (days before the PC) my pencils, left the keys to the office for my partner and never returned. Went off to see the world and here I am at 76 and have not seen it all. The story. Ended on what is named the 5th most beautiful Island and beach in the world. Then came the Gensets and video. The noise drove me off the Island and here I am with a Champion, must be a crazy old dude???:h.

I like your project! Will follow each future post.

Perhaps if the Doctor gives a okay I can visit Jax and ride in that wonderful VW. Cruisin' in style. With Joel and his Champion A/C'ed VW. WOW:C

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:

The introduction of the Chinese style generator with the huge muffler created an inexpensive, powerful generator that was "in the middle" with noise levels. It was a considerable improvement over what was then used by many campers and, unlike the smaller units, could power a RV rooftop air conditioner.

About the quietest camping generator you can purchase is something like a Honda 1000 and keep the load under 500 watts so it stays in econo mode. Unfortunately, about all you can do at that power level is watch TV.

I think the Prof hit the nail on the head! From what I've learned in my experiments and from this thread, you have to look at your intended application and then go from there with your generator choice. A single quiet little putt-putt Honda is not going to run your A/C, microwave, etc.! A contractor generator will run everything and also get you run out of camp!:o The Chinese gensets are a great compromise, and since they are relatively inexpensive, lend themselves to modification.

I initially envisioned building up a genset that would be totally enclosed for maximal sound suppression, but then looked at my intended application. My FW did not have an abundance of externally accessible storage, and although the genset would fit in the front compartment where the batts reside, that's right under the bedroom :Z ... not a good spot without considerable modification! It also raises issues of vibration, ventilation, safety, etc. All these issues are surmountable, but I really didn't want to sacrifice any more storage.

I therefore decided to go the external, receiver hitch mount route. That puts the genset as far away from the bedroom as possible and eliminates a whole host of technical issues - about all I had to do was run a LPG line and a +12v line (even those could be eliminated if I had decided to stay with gasoline and the OEM internal starting battery.)

Because of my mounting decision, it then appeared logical to stay with the DuroPower's open-bottom/enclosed sides and top design. I did the Hardiebacker mod to attentuate the sound a little more and wrapped and enclosed the muffler and rerouted the exhaust downward rather than straight out the side to cut the already quiet exhaust noise a bit more.

So, I wound up with a hybrid design - a partially-enclosed, externally mounted, LPG/remote start conversion. If I get the notion to suppress the noise a bit more, I left a few inches of space between the genset and the back wall of the FW so I still can easily add a "Gen Tent" or some sort of portable enclosure to attenuate the sound inside the FW.

Looks like there is no "one" solution for everyone - that's what makes this thread so fun!:B

Regards,
John

[Bluestreak]

shum02 wrote:

Bluestreak wrote:
I am about ready to pull the trigger and order the Costco generator...but I am suprised that there are no reviews on the Costco Website yet! How come?

Noise is my major concern, and I was curious about the comments of the poster with the clip of his freshly arrived unit...talking about "clatter" as a major part of the noise. Where is this noise coming from? Is it from the sheet metal parts, the valve train in the engine, cooling fins ringing or ???

Finally, I know it's comparing oranges and limes, but does anyone know how the Champion 3000 compares to the Honywell 2000 as far as noise ?

I'd love to put the various generators we talk about here in a free-field environment and make some actual measurements!

Thanks for the link. I had seen this clip before and liked it for what Honda was trying to do, but I have some built-in skepticism over any video clip of anything making noise. Most image recording devices (phones, cameras, video recorders, etc.) and consumer audio recording equipment have built in ALC (automatic level control) circuitry and they all work in strange and mysterious ways to make the sound “better”. As it turns out, how "loud" some noise maker seems to be, as seen in a video clip, can be more an effect of the recording device than the noise-making device.

If Honda, or anyone else making the comparison had held up a recognizable sound level meter, (even one from Radio Snack) and showed us what it was reading, that would be great! That way, we could see the meter, the unit under test and the test area as well as hear the "quality" of the sound. If you really want to get into it, the thickness of the grass, the relative humidity and temperature, atmospheric pressure, presence of reflecting surfaces and the “flatness” of the field can all have an effect.

Bottom line, it does seem clear that big and ugly is louder than small and cute. Beyond that, I think we’re all on our own.


(What turnip truck did I fall off of? I spent my formative years as an engineer working on sound and vibration issues in nuclear submarines, jet turbine powered generators, aircraft and airport noise, computer equipment, BIG booms out in Nevada and automotive noise and vibration. S&Vengineering can be a lot of fun!)

On this page of Honda's site is a catagory called "Tools and Resources"

Honda Power Equipment

Click "Generator sould level comparison" and you'll get a decent video that compares Honda's inverter and open frame gensets which would compare with the Champion.

[joelchappell]

professor95 wrote:


The majority of "noise" comes from the crankcase area of the engine. It is distributed by the metal parts.

The Champion, and other similar Chinese open frame synchronous generators, have a much larger engine than the 2,000 watt inverters they are often compared to. The catch 22, or advertising thrust, shows the open frame genny at 67 dBA (21 feet) and smaller engine inverter at 58 dBA.

In some tests I performed maybe two years ago a Kipor 3,000 watt inverter ran at a low 59 dBA in the econo mode while a Chinese non-inverter open frame generator measured from an equal distance with no load had a reading 5 dBA higher.

Under load the Kipor shifted out of econo mode and engine speed increased. The measured sound level was 65 dBA. The 3,500 watt rated Chinese genny with the same load registered 68 dBA.

Bottom line - none of them are really quite, especially when loaded. They all have gasoline internal combustion engines exploding thousands of times per minute. But, the inverter or digital models do come out quieter due to smaller displacement engines for the same wattage output, variable engine speed and a case surrounding the assembly.

The concept of the 3,000 watt class Chinese generator being quite originated as a comparison to existing equipment from Coleman and others with the same wattage and engine size producing readings of 78 dBA all the way up into the mid 80's. These were basically lawnmower or rototiller engines with a cheap muffler that were bolted to an alternator.

The introduction of the Chinese style generator with the huge muffler created an inexpensive, powerful generator that was "in the middle" with noise levels. It was a considerable improvement over what was then used by many campers and, unlike the smaller units, could power a RV rooftop air conditioner.

About the quietest camping generator you can purchase is something like a Honda 1000 and keep the load under 500 watts so it stays in econo mode. Unfortunately, about all you can do at that power level is watch TV.

Very well said. Unless you are really needing inverter power, I have found the inverter style of generator to be very inflexible. There isn't a lot that can be done with them for custom applications due to them being inside a molded case.

Also, the sound pressure readings they use are ridiculous. No one uses an unloaded generator. Who cares that it runs 56db unloaded?

I have access to a Kipor 3100. It is listed in the 56db range, some think it quieter than the Honda. It is the same motor that is found in the Champion 3500 I just bought. It is shrouded with sheet metal with insulation on the inside, a blower fan and of course an inverter for the clean power.

It is quiet when it starts, but when you crank up the air in the camper, hello 65db! Open the little door on the side and guess what? 68db at 21 ft. (Measured it myself with an "A" weighted db meter).

My Champion in the box I put it in (with no insulation mind you) runs at 72db at 21 feet.

Video of meter(BTW, the change in sound is because I recorded it with my Blackberry).

The range is set to 70db, which means at 0 it is 70db. It is reading +2 so that is 72db.

This is ground zero for me. The install location will ultimately be inside the van behind a generator access cover from a motorhome. I am building a double walled insulated/isolated box. Once it is done when I turn on the generator, it will make the whole world drop 3db.;)

[professor95]

Bluestreak wrote:
I am about ready to pull the trigger and order the Costco generator...but I am suprised that there are no reviews on the Costco Website yet! How come?

Noise is my major concern, and I was curious about the comments of the poster with the clip of his freshly arrived unit...talking about "clatter" as a major part of the noise. Where is this noise coming from? Is it from the sheet metal parts, the valve train in the engine, cooling fins ringing or ???

Finally, I know it's comparing oranges and limes, but does anyone know how the Champion 3000 compares to the Honywell 2000 as far as noise ?

I'd love to put the various generators we talk about here in a free-field environment and make some actual measurements!

The majority of "noise" comes from the crankcase area of the engine. It is distributed by the metal parts.

The Champion, and other similar Chinese open frame synchronous generators, have a much larger engine than the 2,000 watt inverters they are often compared to. The catch 22, or advertising thrust, shows the open frame genny at 67 dBA (21 feet) and smaller engine inverter at 58 dBA.

In some tests I performed maybe two years ago a Kipor 3,000 watt inverter ran at a low 59 dBA in the econo mode while a Chinese non-inverter open frame generator measured from an equal distance with no load had a reading 5 dBA higher.

Under load the Kipor shifted out of econo mode and engine speed increased. The measured sound level was 65 dBA. The 3,500 watt rated Chinese genny with the same load registered 68 dBA.

Bottom line - none of them are really quite, especially when loaded. They all have gasoline internal combustion engines exploding thousands of times per minute. But, the inverter or digital models do come out quieter due to smaller displacement engines for the same wattage output, variable engine speed and a case surrounding the assembly.

The concept of the 3,000 watt class Chinese generator being quite originated as a comparison to existing equipment from Coleman and others with the same wattage and engine size producing readings of 78 dBA all the way up into the mid 80's. These were basically lawnmower or rototiller engines with a cheap muffler that were bolted to an alternator.

The introduction of the Chinese style generator with the huge muffler created an inexpensive, powerful generator that was "in the middle" with noise levels. It was a considerable improvement over what was then used by many campers and, unlike the smaller units, could power a RV rooftop air conditioner.

About the quietest camping generator you can purchase is something like a Honda 1000 and keep the load under 500 watts so it stays in econo mode. Unfortunately, about all you can do at that power level is watch TV.

[Old___Slow]

shum02 wrote:

Bluestreak wrote:
I am about ready to pull the trigger and order the Costco generator...but I am suprised that there are no reviews on the Costco Website yet! How come?

Noise is my major concern, and I was curious about the comments of the poster with the clip of his freshly arrived unit...talking about "clatter" as a major part of the noise. Where is this noise coming from? Is it from the sheet metal parts, the valve train in the engine, cooling fins ringing or ???

Finally, I know it's comparing oranges and limes, but does anyone know how the Champion 3000 compares to the Honywell 2000 as far as noise ?

I'd love to put the various generators we talk about here in a free-field environment and make some actual measurements!

On this page of Honda's site is a catagory called "Tools and Resources"

Honda Power Equipment

Click "Generator sould level comparison" and you'll get a decent video that compares Honda's inverter and open frame gensets which would compare with the Champion.

OMG, I had never seen a 'Load Bank' before. Then I went to 'tools and resources' on the Honda website. When you listen and watch the video of the demo, it will knock you off your rocker. I could not believe the change in noise level between 'no load and full load'. Of the open frame and the Inverters. No wonder folks looked a me running by Champion in a State Park (long ago) with no Electric hook ups. I thought they were admiring my new Yellow and Black gen. Oh well, life has gone on, until now. I won't bother the campers with the gen in the genhouse.

Joel,

You have a good start there. Maybe you will try several different methods to quiet the Champ in a box. Be sure the cooling is okay first. Then panels of soundstop (the black stuff) from Lowe's might work. Then there is the indoor/outdoor carpet mats (carpet on one side rubber on the other side) glewed to the sides? Perhaps make some unside down 'L' looking things to attaach to the vent openings on each end. That way the sound will have to turn a corner. This comes from Bill h.

[shum02]

Bluestreak wrote:
I am about ready to pull the trigger and order the Costco generator...but I am suprised that there are no reviews on the Costco Website yet! How come?

Noise is my major concern, and I was curious about the comments of the poster with the clip of his freshly arrived unit...talking about "clatter" as a major part of the noise. Where is this noise coming from? Is it from the sheet metal parts, the valve train in the engine, cooling fins ringing or ???

Finally, I know it's comparing oranges and limes, but does anyone know how the Champion 3000 compares to the Honywell 2000 as far as noise ?

I'd love to put the various generators we talk about here in a free-field environment and make some actual measurements!

On this page of Honda's site is a catagory called "Tools and Resources"

Honda Power Equipment

Click "Generator sould level comparison" and you'll get a decent video that compares Honda's inverter and open frame gensets which would compare with the Champion.

[Bluestreak]

I am about ready to pull the trigger and order the Costco generator...but I am suprised that there are no reviews on the Costco Website yet! How come?

Noise is my major concern, and I was curious about the comments of the poster with the clip of his freshly arrived unit...talking about "clatter" as a major part of the noise. Where is this noise coming from? Is it from the sheet metal parts, the valve train in the engine, cooling fins ringing or ???

Finally, I know it's comparing oranges and limes, but does anyone know how the Champion 3000 compares to the Honywell 2000 as far as noise ?

I'd love to put the various generators we talk about here in a free-field environment and make some actual measurements!

[joelchappell]

The Van is my 1970 VW Bus. My 1st step was to mount it on my front hitch.





Double fans, one constant, one on a thermostat. Extended exhaust out of box.

The exhaust is quiet, the noise is the clatter. It is LOUD. Don't have my DB meter at the house, I'll check it tomorrow at the office. But under load it has to be in the mid 70's.

Everything works, now I have to start working on a insulation system.

I will say that the Remote is sweet. In the box with the lid closed, I can start and stop it from the cab of my bus.

More to come.

[Wrace]

professor95 wrote:

You mean like this:



The only difference is possibly my exhaust extension going through the topper roof.

The air in the camper shell heated up quickly -- too quickly. I ended up having to put a 20" box fan at the front of the bed where the slider window was open to blow air out the open rear hatch over the tailgate.

This was the weekend that my AVR failed - possibly due to too much heat.

I really think you are asking for problems with all the stuff you are proposing. As I have noted before it is easier to cool an enclosed genny with a small compartment and fan that directs air flow than a larger compartment that just blows air. Having the camper shell around the enclosure will compound the problem.

My advice is to quit worrying about noise. Run the genny during generator hours and while others are running theirs. It's sound level will be fine under those conditions.

Ok, thanks. I had a feeling it sounded too easy to be true.

[professor95]

Wrace wrote:

I am rapidly approaching a camping weekend in the non hook-up loop of a national park and am anxious about the noise factor when using my champion to recharge the trailer batteries each day. Not so much because I'm worried about any grief from the rangers, but for my own enjoyment while in the campsite while the gen is running.

The generator will be running in the bed of my pickup which has a carpeted fiberglass topper with side, front, and rear opening windows. The bed of the truck has line-x coating. Also, the generator has a wheel/handle kit on it so it sits a little higher off the ground.

When situated in the bed of the truck the generator will be placed in the rear left corner, which puts the switch panel, choke, and pull starter within fairly easy reach for a right handed person such that I'm pretty sure I can get it started when it's in the bed.

This of course also means the air intake at the gen head and the engine exhaust pipe is at the other end facing the front of the truck bed.

SNIP

You mean like this:



The only difference is possibly my exhaust extension going through the topper roof.

The air in the camper shell heated up quickly -- too quickly. I ended up having to put a 20" box fan at the front of the bed where the slider window was open to blow air out the open rear hatch over the tailgate.

This was the weekend that my AVR failed - possibly due to too much heat.

I really think you are asking for problems with all the stuff you are proposing. As I have noted before it is easier to cool an enclosed genny with a small compartment and fan that directs air flow than a larger compartment that just blows air. Having the camper shell around the enclosure will compound the problem.

My advice is to quit worrying about noise. Run the genny during generator hours and while others are running theirs. It's sound level will be fine under those conditions.

[bill_h]

W8NONU wrote:
I heard your comment about how loud the generator is.

Stop that!

Champions are not loud. Champions are not loud.

[kausin_komotion]

w8n I like the picture

Veeerrry Niiiiiiiic