3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[jlaustin]

DuroPower 3500ES Cooling Duct Update!

As previously posted, I had "torture tested" my DuroPower 3500ES LPG/Remote Start conversion by running the 15K BTU A/C's compressor on the fifth wheel continuously and observed the genset's alternator cooling air exhaust temps. In every case, before and after adding a duct to the alternator, the exhaust temps would inexorably climb to about 190 degrees within an hour - the duct just slowed the temp rise down for a few minutes. I terminated the test each time at 190 out of fear of damaging the alternator's wiring due to thermal breakdown as the Prof has explained in previous posts.

Here's what the duct looked like initially (that's it on the left - on the right is the muffler enclosure) - normally there is a metal/foam/Hardiebacker enclosure panel covering this area:


I decided to try forced air cooling to see if this would help. Marvin P Jones & Associates is a great source for power supplies, cooling fans, etc. I found these server fans in a set of four for the princely price of $9.95 (that's right ... all four for $9.95 total!)! They are rated at 25.47 cfm each/100+ cfm total and are intended for moderate pressurization. Each little unit has a 3-blade and a 5-blade fan in series:


Incredibly, the dimensions fit my duct almost with no alternation! I just had to snip off some plastic mounts on each end and put a filler strip on weatherstripping on one side and it fit perfectly! Here's a pic of the fans up inside the duct opening:


I used the original alternator cooling intake cap to reinforce the duct. I cut out all the louvers and just left the ring around the periphery so it would mate with the alternator perfectly - for now, some Gorilla tape around the periphery holds it in place - later, I'll probably drill and tap the alternator casing to accept some mounting flanges:


Now ... the best part of all! I wired the fans into the same switch on the alternator exhaust cooling vents that cuts "on" at about 150 degrees. (The switch also triggers the 500 cfm ventilation fan at the top of the genset.) I repeated the "torture test" with the A/C compressor continuously running. The duct fans dutifully kicked-in at 150 degrees. The cooling exhaust averaged 151-152 degrees and never climbed any higher - no matter how long the compressor ran! In fact, at times the fans could cool the switch down below 150 and this would cut them off! The ambient was 85 degrees with relatively high humidity ... actually slightly warmer than previous tests.

I feel confident my alternator cooling is satisfactory. It will still pay to keep an eye on it on an extreme day, however!

Regards,

John

[professor95]

joelchappell wrote:

This site is definitely one that I will update once I get the genny. I still have my eyes open for others until I actually get it. Costco has my status as a never-ending "sent to Fulfillment". I guess it will be a couple more weeks before anyone actually recieves one.

They must do this as a way to pre-order a bunch in from China, if they have several hundred already bought and paid for, it probably pays for the container to get em over here.

They are being shipped from CPE directly to customers that order from Costco. Generators are in the CPE warehouse and are being shipped daily as fast as they can process orders.

[joelchappell]

Old & Slow wrote:
Hey Joel,

Disappointed you experienced the damage with the Lifan. Yes, it is nice when buying from one of the big box stores you have a 90 day sitisfaction guarantee. I think Champion may be a great choice if no problems develop with their new ES/RC units. I have a Champion C46540 that has been through a real stress test for three years. But, new models sometimes have a few bugs. Anyway I'm sure Costco will stand behind the Champion for the first few months. If not, dear ol' Champion I do believe will. We'll expect perhaps, you might be one of the first to report your success.

Floyd

This site is definitely one that I will update once I get the genny. I still have my eyes open for others until I actually get it. Costco has my status as a never-ending "sent to Fulfillment". I guess it will be a couple more weeks before anyone actually recieves one.

They must do this as a way to pre-order a bunch in from China, if they have several hundred already bought and paid for, it probably pays for the container to get em over here.

[Old___Slow]

Hey Joel,

Disappointed you experienced the damage with the Lifan. Yes, it is nice when buying from one of the big box stores you have a 90 day sitisfaction guarantee. I think Champion may be a great choice if no problems develop with their new ES/RC units. I have a Champion C46540 that has been through a real stress test for three years. But, new models sometimes have a few bugs. Anyway I'm sure Costco will stand behind the Champion for the first few months. If not, dear ol' Champion I do believe will. We'll expect perhaps, you might be one of the first to report your success.

Floyd

[joelchappell]

Is the 'Lifan' proving to be a okay gen? We would like to see what you have done with the installation of the Lifan in the VW. Did you add 120v A/C also.

It seems now is the time to buy a Chinese 3000w genny.

Homedepot.com has this gen on sale through 6/27/2010 with FREE shipping @ $251.10 Wow. Are we being blind sided by all the low prices from China?

Well I have been meaning to update, but haven't had time. I had to return the Lifan because the fuel tank had a leak. It also had been damaged at the electrical panel.

Home Depot doesn't have any more 3500E models, only the 3500 which is the one that is $259, but no electric start.

I ordered one of the Champions from Costco.

I still think that Lifan would have been fine for me, unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be anymore stock.

I do have to say that working it so I will end up with the Champion is good though. From what I have read on here, I doubt I will have a repeat of a damaged unit.

[Old___Slow]

joelchappell wrote:
Received the Lifan 3500E generator. It has exceeded my expectations.
Pulled it out of the box and it is great. It is compact, and quiet. How quiet?

My buddy, who is a Kipor ambassador, and I serviced it up and got ready to pull the cord (haven't installed the battery yet). I looked at him, he looked at me, I pulled the cord once, turned on the choke pulled it a 2nd time and it fired right up. We waited for it to idle up and were both very puzzled as it didn't get loud. I thought something was wrong. I wish you could have seen the look on his face (probably mine too). I was prepared to jump through hoops to build multi layered cabinets and custom mufflers. This will be easy.

I am installing it on my 70 VW camper. I think my months of research paid off.

68db at 21 feet, measured with a pro spl meter at 21 feet. "A" weighted. (For those who are confused about the difference between "A" weighted and "C" weighted measuring, "C" weighted reads all frequencies and always produces a higher reading as it is more sensitive, "A" weighted only reads those frequencies that the human ear processes, so it is more accurate to the levels that you hear. (That is why many companies are beginning to include "A" weighted readings in the specs).

Anyway, before you chime in with the Honda 55-58db "standard for quiet", let me tell you that in my opinion that is hogwash. Here is why.

I took readings on a Troy-bilt 5500 genny, open frame, and a Kipor IG3000 Sinewave closed frame genny. The readings were:

Troy-bilt - ridiculously loud 101 db at 21 feet
Kipor - energy saver mode 58 db at 21 feet, but throttled up to run the camper it was 68db at 21 feet.

The reason I think that the 55-58db standard is hogwash is because you can't run anything significant at idle. And when in energy saver mode, if the a/c turns on, many times the idle up isn't quick enough to service the ac turning on, so what's the point? If all you want is to top off batteries, the quiet modes will work for you. But my application requires high current all of the time.

For my own studies, I am using only 21 feet for measure, only at full load (a/c running). I am interested in real world application, not bench test figures.

All of that to say, I am very pleasantly surprised at how the Lifan performs, how quiet it is and how small it is at 17" wide x 17" tall by 22" long (without the wheel kit).

I know I don't post here much but I thought maybe someone going through the same process as me would benefit from my findings.

Here are pix of the Lifan.








If you are interested in the Camper it's going in there are some pix here VW BUS

Contrasting views welcomed. If there is some test I can do for you to help you decide which genny to purchase, let me know.

Is the 'Lifan' proving to be a okay gen? We would like to see what you have done with the installation of the Lifan in the VW. Did you add 120v A/C also.

It seems now is the time to buy a Chinese 3000w genny.

Homedepot.com has this gen on sale through 6/27/2010 with FREE shipping @ $251.10 Wow. Are we being blind sided by all the low prices from China?

[professor95]

I received this e-mail from my friend at CPE this morning. Pretty much says that if you want one of these models, don't wait around.

I do not believe this is a gimmick, so expect the price and shipping to change soon.

First day of orders are unbelievable. This is a one shot opportunity for
> buyers at this price. All future units will not be co-opted by Champion.
> The $100 coupon is being absorbed by Champion and also we are
> participating in freight as well. Being sold at a loss for market
> introduction is what I have been told. Expect less than 3000 pcs. at
> this price. This is a buyers opportunity!

[SonicLogic]

The solution to my problem was to pay the $19 non-member surcharge and get the word out to those who might be in the same predicament.

Another option is a gift card. If a member sends you (nonmember) a COSTCO gift card, they will give you a free one day membership to buy whatever you desire. The card can also be used online by nonmembers.

[W8NONU]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
Don't know about your PMs - but seems you only received one reply on possibilities of accomplishing the (your)Costco purchase.

BTW - the gift membership I was originally referring to - was a limited time membership - not the regular $50. variety.

IMO - you need an attitude adjustment for *YOUR* carb. :R

JC

I think you're missing the point. The solution to my problem was to pay the $19 non-member surcharge and get the word out to those who might be in the same predicament.

jlaustin - I've been following your endeavors from your first post and the challenges you faced with the primer and regulator designs. You have done some excellent work. I think you should have separated your build into a new thread so others don't have to search through all these posts for all the stages of your project.

I've decided that the 46538 has all the conveniences at the best price and it is a deal that can't be passed up. I'm sure I'll be needing some help converting it to use LP.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

W8NONU wrote:
At the time, I assumed I would have to pay for a membership. I didn't know that the additional cost for non-members would only be $19. Now we know and you can comment all you like. I like how you busted that out after I told you the difference between paying for a $50 membership and the $19 additional surcharge. Good job and your welcome.

Don't know about your PMs - but seems you only received one reply on possibilities of accomplishing the (your)Costco purchase.

BTW - the gift membership I was originally referring to - was a limited time membership - not the regular $50. variety.

IMO - you need an attitude adjustment for *YOUR* carb. :R

~

JC

[jlaustin]

professor95 wrote:

W8NONU wrote:
What kind of modifications would the 46538 need to convert to LP? Would the existing electric and remote start system work with the LP conversion?

The 46538 has an electric choke that works with the remote. If the gas carburetor is "drilled" so the choke is in front of the LPG feed tube and a vacuum demand regulator added modifications would be minimal. If the feed plate adapter I designed to fit on the front of the carb is used the electric choke would not help and you would need to rig up a primer.

My DuroPower 3500ES LP conversion was really straightforward - I opted to drill the carb and replace the jet with a copper tube orifice per the Prof's instructions a few hundred pages back in this thread! My rationale was that if I really goofed, a replacement carb really isn't that expensive. Your biggest problem will be hesitating just before you stick that drill into the carb! A little voice will say "Why in the world do I want to destroy a perfectly good carb???":h All I can tell you is, try it! After the conversion, my gennie fired up on the second crank!

Rather than use the choke at all, I elected to use an automatic primer with the "drilled" carb. I experimented with the (Prof's design) solenoid plunger pushing the manual primer button on the regulator and also with a fuel solenoid-controlled bypass primer. In both cases, for simplicity, I was energizing the solenoids with the +12v that energizes the starter, thus making them operate "automatically", whether the starter was engaged with a manual button or the remote. I never could get reliable priming and starting with the by-pass arrangement - it continually enrichens the vapor line while cranking and quickly "floods" the engine with LPG - i.e., it gets too rich to start or causes enriched, unignited mixture to explode in the exhaust system (is this the opposite of a "backfire"???:@).

The Prof's design primer uses a trunk solenoid to pull a lever to manually depress the primer button on the regulator. In my case, the GM trunk solenoids I obtained had (unbeknownst to me!) a "cut-out" in that they would release after about 3 seconds (despite a constant +12v source), rest a couple of seconds, then re-engage for 3 seconds and so on. This worked out great for automatic operation! What typically happens on my gennie is that the primer kicks in for the 3 seconds, releases, and after one or two cycles of this, the engine ALWAYS starts - no matter if cold, hot, whatever!:B (And all I had to do was push my remote start button once, and that's it!:C) In the case of starting with the manual button, you simply hold it down until it starts! What could be easier?

Regards,
John

[W8NONU]

At the time, I assumed I would have to pay for a membership. I didn't know that the additional cost for non-members would only be $19. Now we know and you can comment all you like. I like how you busted that out after I told you the difference between paying for a $50 membership and the $19 additional surcharge. Good job and your welcome.

[ol_Bombero-JC]

W8NONU wrote:


There is a $19 surcharge for non-members. That's cheaper than getting the $50 membership that I wouldn't use.

Good info for Costco "non-members"! :C

BTW - you wanted to use someone's m/ship number (or have someone else buy it for you) - - - to save $19.? :?

~

JC

[professor95]

W8NONU wrote:
What kind of modifications would the 46538 need to convert to LP? Would the existing electric and remote start system work with the LP conversion?

The 46538 has an electric choke that works with the remote. If the gas carburetor is "drilled" so the choke is in front of the LPG feed tube and a vacuum demand regulator added modifications would be minimal. If the feed plate adapter I designed to fit on the front of the carb is used the electric choke would not help and you would need to rig up a primer.

[W8NONU]

Since the $100 off applies to the other generators on Costco's site, I would consider the LP ready electric start model 71307. Which is easier adding remote start to the bigger 71307 or converting the smaller 46538? I like the convenience of the having the bigger generator but the chance to have the smaller genny with the ability to be dual-fuel is appealing.