3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[dogzpaws]

professor95 wrote:
I see this done frequently, and have even tried it myself. Grounding is not an issue, but a fresh air supply is. If there is a practical method for you to use a piece of flexible tubing to route the exhaust out of the truck, it will be easier to achieve what you want. The noise from these generators is not in the exhaust, but in the mechanical assembly.

Prof, thanks for your input-your knowledge on this subject appears to be impressive. You mentioned you've tried this before. I derive from your description that you chose not to use this method in your current situation. Have you found a better solution or was it just not practical to exhaust the generator? I would think heat would not be an issue given the large volume in the bed of the truck. I'm curious if it would be quieter in the truck versus the cover you proposed in a previous post.

I was hoping to delay my purchase to complete my research but with the heat of the summer here already in So Cal (99.5 today), I'm guessing I'll need something sooner than later for the AC.

[MrWizard]

VDOCAD wrote:
Just to show how new these "RV Ready" Champion generators are, I went to my local Kragen two different days and two defferent clerks told me they did not have them(never heard of them). I then provided them with the C46535 part number, they checked the computer and sure enough, they had 3 new boxes in the back...
I am still waiting to hear an explanation why MrWizard couldn't run his A/C with it. So much was said about this generator that it seems a mayor failure if it doesn't run a typical MH A/C unit. I do not see many people too worried about this finding. Maybe the Professor can report his findings after he finishes grading papers.

well the A/C is OLD, it is 13,550 BTU, and i believe the start CAP has died

I used the generator to run my 90 amp Lincoln flux core wire feed welder

and it worked perfectly, no problem getting an arc at full power setting, and NO problem keeping a nice hot arc

I tested it on a 9000 BTU window A/C ( belongs to a friend ) NO problem hardly even burped when then unit was switched on

so at the moment i reasonably sure the problem is in the roof top A/C unit

[Red_Clay_Ramble]

Professor,

Can you explain why "grounding is not an issue" when running the gen in the back of a pickup? Is that method theoretically safer than running the gen while it's sitting on the ground? I am thinking back to much earlier posts about grounding rods, open circuits, surge protectors, etc.

Thanks

[VDOCAD]

Tonka Truck:
Thanks for correcting me. I was indeed reffering to the "RV Ready" model, but I typed the wrong model number. It must be the long hours I spend in the middle of the night reading this forum after my newborn wakes us up for the Nth time... I read all 217 pages during the last 2 months.

Professor:
Once again, thank you for such detailed explanation of how old motors work. My MH being a 1984 Jayco must fall under such category. The only reason I am buying this generator is the use of the A/C; I am then very interested in finding out where I can purchase such Hard Start kit since it looks like I will need it. I am very handy but how hard is it to install such thing? Would it come with instructions?

Thanks again for all your help.

[professor95]

dogzpaws wrote:
I'm new to this forum and have read through many of the posts on this topic. I'm new to generators and am looking for something to power up a 13,500 BTU AC and MW on my TT. I like the price though am concerned about the noise. I know a lot of folks here think this generator is just too loud to use at a campground. I would agree that it is louder than the Honda or Yamaha 2000 or 3000 watt counterparts. However, if a MH pulls in with his 5500 or 7000 watt Onan, won't the level of noise be comparable to these Chinese generators. The Onan website claims 67 db at 3m at half load for their 5500 Marquis Gold.

Has anyone done any previous research on this?

You are correct in your thinking. Read back to some measurments and observations I made shortly after the Memorial Day weekend while camping at Big Meadows on the Skyline Drive.

On a second line of thought, I might be looking at running this from inside the back of my pickup (under the canopy, windows open). Several pros here, don't have to lug it around and I figure the canopy may serve to help reduce noise. Anyone see any cons here I would need to consider (grounding, etc.)?

Thanks.

I see this done frequently, and have even tried it myself. Grounding is not an issue, but a fresh air supply is. If there is a practical method for you to use a piece of flexible tubing to route the exhaust out of the truck, it will be easier to achieve what you want. The noise from these generators is not in the exhaust, but in the mechanical assembly.

[professor95]

I am still waiting to hear an explanation why MrWizard couldn't run his A/C with it. So much was said about this generator that it seems a mayor failure if it doesn't run a typical MH A/C unit. I do not see many people too worried about this finding. Maybe the Professor can report his findings after he finishes grading papers.

Actually, I am waiting for George (MrWizard) to report his findings. The man knows considerably more about electric motors than I do. He has spent a lifetime working with them and has acquired a vast knowledge base on their problems and performance standards.

Of course, that doesn't keep me from making a knee jerk observation as to what might be going on.......

I am not currently interpreting his problem to be with the Champion, even if other generators did start the air conditioner previously. The problem is most likely one of age and design of the air conditioner. As such, I would not jump to the conclusion that his unit is a typical MH A/C unit.

This is a common problem for electric motors used in RV air conditioners that predate the advent of the use of scroll or rotary compressors and what is often called "SST" (soft start technology)in the latter. Like me, as they age, electric motors can become more stubborn and reluctant to get moving. RV air conditioners built before '94 or '95 are in all probability in the previous class.

Any electric motor that is at rest will require a considerable kick in the seat of the pants to get it moving. This instaneous current demand is referred to as the "locked rotor" current. An electric motor that may draw 10 to 12 ampres at speed and under a "normal" load can easily require 60 amps of current for a brief period of time to get it moving. The critical part of this statement is: What's normal? For some motors, LRC is only a fractional part of a second. For others, it can be several seconds. This time differential will depend upon the design of the motor, what load may be connected to the motor at the time it is trying to start, and even the age of the motor - which can influence the condition of any starting capacitors, bearings, etc. that can alter LRC/Time constant. AC power differs from DC in respect to the available AC power not being constant. Eventhough we take AC and average the output and think of it as consistent, it is actually periodic. To overcome this problem, larger motors often use a capacitor to store a little AC power for a few alterations before feeding it to the motor. Some also have separate start and run windings to reduce the LRC.

George indicated that he was going to install a hard start kit on his MH air conditioner. Such a kit usually includes a new, larger capacitor to collect electrical energy from the power source, delay the delivery of the energy a few milliseconds, and then use the full force of the stored power to kick the motor really hard. The result is that the motor starts moving, does not overload the power source and everyone is happy.

The extra kick from a "hard start" add on kit is often all that is needed to get the system back to "normal".

[AZDesertRat]

FYI.
Pay_N_Save stores here in the Phoenix area are advertising Factory Remanufactured Champion non RV type 3500w generators for $199 this week.

[dogzpaws]

I'm new to this forum and have read through many of the posts on this topic. I'm new to generators and am looking for something to power up a 13,500 BTU AC and MW on my TT. I like the price though am concerned about the noise. I know a lot of folks here think this generator is just too loud to use at a campground. I would agree that it is louder than the Honda or Yamaha 2000 or 3000 watt counterparts. However, if a MH pulls in with his 5500 or 7000 watt Onan, won't the level of noise be comparable to these Chinese generators. The Onan website claims 67 db at 3m at half load for their 5500 Marquis Gold.

Has anyone done any previous research on this?

On a second line of thought, I might be looking at running this from inside the back of my pickup (under the canopy, windows open). Several pros here, don't have to lug it around and I figure the canopy may serve to help reduce noise. Anyone see any cons here I would need to consider (grounding, etc.)?

Thanks.

[toprudder]

Tonka Truck wrote:
If your are on "shore power" and disconnect your house battery to charge or replace - does anyone know if the system continues to work as usual? In another words, no open loop? Also, if the battery house cables are live and could short to ground when the battery is out if not careful?

While running my genset, I want to use a battery charger plugged in to charge my house battery, so should I disconnect it for charging?
Thanks,

Whether you could disconnect the battery or not depends a little on your converter and how the camper is wired.

There are some converters, like the old Magnetek ferroresonant type, that MUST be connected to a battery. The battery acts like a filter for the output of the converter. Most solid-state type converters, like the IOTA and Progressive Dynamics, can supply 12v power without being connected to a battery.

If your camper has/had one of the older types, then it is probably wired such that the battery stays connected to the converter even when the battery disconnect is turned off. This is how my camper was wired, since it originally had a Magnetek.

I don't see how leaving the battery connected, even if using a seperate battery charger, could cause a problem. If you disconnect the ground wire, the battery is effectively out of the circuit and there is little chance of shorting anything out. However, if you disconnect the positive lead, I would wrap it in tape, stick it in a PVC pipe, etc to make sure it does not short to ground.

Bob R.

[Tonka_Truck]

Thanks CamperDave, if I'm dry camping (boondocker) and want to re-charge my battery faster than the trickle charge through the trailer.

[Tonka_Truck]

Hi VDOCAD,
The C46535 IS NOT the RV ready genset, it does provide enough current and is used with an RV adapter etc..

The C46540 is the one with the RV plugin right on the panel. Go back a few pages to where MrWizard mounted one in his RV, look at the picture and note the three prong RV plugin ready for your RV cord.

The C46535 is good, the C46540 is the new model, I knew the xxx40 number and their look-up in Checker Auto store for stock brings up the xxx35, so I asked them to go on-line to warehouse and search on xxx40, it came up, I paid them and was delevered the next day.
The xxx35 and xxx40 look the same at first glance, only the xxx40 has the RV plugin.

[camperdave]

Tonka Truck wrote:
If your are on "shore power" and disconnect your house battery to charge or replace - does anyone know if the system continues to work as usual? In another words, no open loop? Also, if the battery house cables are live and could short to ground when the battery is out if not careful?

While running my genset, I want to use a battery charger plugged in to charge my house battery, so should I disconnect it for charging?
Thanks,

Some converters need the battery in place to act as a filter for the 12v power, others work fine with no battery, so you'd need to find out more about your particular converter. I'm a bit confused on why you would ever need to charge your battery externally if you are hooked into shore power though??

If, however, that is what you are wanting to do, here is how I would do it. Leave the battery connected, flip off the 120v circuit breaker to the onboard converter/charger, and hook up your external charger to the battery. This would still give you 120v power to your AC and micro etc., but you'd be charging the battery from the external charger.

[VDOCAD]

Just to show how new these "RV Ready" Champion generators are, I went to my local Kragen two different days and two defferent clerks told me they did not have them(never heard of them). I then provided them with the C46535 part number, they checked the computer and sure enough, they had 3 new boxes in the back...
I am still waiting to hear an explanation why MrWizard couldn't run his A/C with it. So much was said about this generator that it seems a mayor failure if it doesn't run a typical MH A/C unit. I do not see many people too worried about this finding. Maybe the Professor can report his findings after he finishes grading papers.

[Tonka_Truck]

If your are on "shore power" and disconnect your house battery to charge or replace - does anyone know if the system continues to work as usual? In another words, no open loop? Also, if the battery house cables are live and could short to ground when the battery is out if not careful?

While running my genset, I want to use a battery charger plugged in to charge my house battery, so should I disconnect it for charging?
Thanks,

[subcamper]

I'd be suspicious about the premium fuel claim. The only difference in most premium fuels is higher octane, which actually makes the gas HARDER to ignite. There are actually small engine manufacturers that say NOT to use a high-octane fuel. I had a friend put premium fuel in his lawnmower, whereupon it became difficult to start until that tankful was used up. Some gas suppliers were advertising that their premium fuels had "fuel injector cleaner" in it, but I doubt that would be beneficial to a carubureted engine.

Steve