3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

maderj wrote:
Has anyone else had this problem. I wasn't even going to check this but...
I have just purchased a 4000W/3500W genset. I am running 240V into a GenTran transfer switch to six circuits in my home. At no load, my frequency is at about 61Hz. However, the second that I begin to add any significant load (e.g. ceiling fan) the frequency drops to 49Hz sharply and then fluctuates between 49Hz and 54Hz. The voltage holds steady with absolutely no drop and the engine makes no noticeable difference in RPMs. Any thoughts?

On perhaps a related note, as soon as I switch to the Genset, one of my circuits that is an arc-fault breaker trips, not allowing the circuit to be powered. This did not happen with my previous generator using the same transfer switch.

maderj sent an email to my regular address asking the same question. I answered it before I noted it was also on the forum. Oldfordman is correct in his answers. He is a really smart feller!! The following is a cut & paste of my reply, which is similar but contains some added info:

"The only way the frequency can drop is if the engine speed drops below 3,600 RPM. How are you measuring frequency? Even if you can't tell by ear, there is a drop there.

Also note that if the two windings that provide 240 volts to a split circuit such as you have need to be balanced. This is often hard to do with a 180 degree phase differential. Just do your best to be sure each leg has approximately the same load. If not, expect more distortion to occur in the leg with the lesser load as the magnetic field around the coil collapses and spikes (nothing to absorb/filter the EMF).

Other issue is that in reality virtually any "regular" US appliance will operate fine with a line frequency of 50HZ to as high as 70HZ. Exceptions are appliances that use the line frequency as a "clock". Some ceiling fans will hum, some microwaves will run faster or slower and electric clocks may also do the same. Really old stuff that uses a brute force power supply (transformer and bridge rectifier) can run a little warmer at a lower frequency, but not significant enough to worry about.

Compressors in cooling equipment aren't too concerned about those variations in frequency.

As load changes the engine compensates with an internal arm that activates a rod with a spring that runs to the carb throttle. You can adjust the tension on the spring with a screw on the top of the carb. Just move slowly and understand that you may have a higher frequency with no load than under load.

Voltage will remain stable across a wide RPM range due to the design of the AVR on the Champion. If you should need to adjust voltage, you may do so by taking the AVR off and turning a small brass screw sticking up out of the potting material. This screw is attached to a ten turn potentiometer, so it has a wide adjustment range.

Now for the arc fault..... If your Champ is going to be used for home rather than RV you need to ground the neutral (long slot on duplex outlet with silver screw) to the homes earth ground and the genny frame. For an RV, leave it as is (floating). This "may" fix the arc fault problem. If not, the harmonic distortion on the Champ's signal is making the arc fault think there is a spark somewhere. I know NEC wants them in bedrooms, but if necessary do not feel afraid to replace the arc fault breaker with a standard breaker unless you have small children prone to sticking things into outlets.

The Champ is a great genny, but like most mechanical units is not as "clean" as home power from your utility company or a inverter type genny. In 95+% of the cases this makes no operational difference to an appliance - it is often more of a concern to anal retentive owners who think the sine wave has to be absolutely "pure".

If I have not answered your questions, please feel free to ask again.

"

[professor95]

We had a great time at the beach. The little Champion generator performed flawlessly. Now we are back home and must return to our "normal lives".

A fellow camper took this shot with my Brownie camera. I just got the film developed. That's our dog, Oscar, in the lower right.

[Old___Slow]

professor95,

maybe you can give us a heads up on champion and ultra-fab. i do not find any blue ultra-gen units listed on the market. ??? a local rv dealer is showing on his website a ultra-gen 3500 but it's a yellow and black champion with the 120/240 twist lock but guess it's 120v only. price $481.00...yes those who are thinking about buying a 3000w genset should get on maybe that last train out with a cheap ticket price. what's the price of the new model at your lowe's?

[Oldfordman]

maderj wrote:
However, the second that I begin to add any significant load (e.g. ceiling fan) the frequency drops to 49Hz sharply and then fluctuates between 49Hz and 54Hz. The voltage holds steady with absolutely no drop and the engine makes no noticeable difference in RPMs. Any thoughts?

On perhaps a related note, as soon as I switch to the Genset, one of my circuits that is an arc-fault breaker trips, not allowing the circuit to be powered. This did not happen with my previous generator using the same transfer switch.

Two things come to mind when I read this. Frequency IS a function of engine RPM's on this Genset. The engine is probably slowing enough to read near 50 hz but not enough for you to "think" it is slowing down.

As for the Arc-Fault problem, did your previous genset have a bonded neutral? The neutral part of the Arc-Fault breaker is an essential part of it's function.

AFCI

Many of the installation instructions warn about certain appliances that are problematic with AFCI's. Often mentioned are fans, toasters, and vacuum cleaners.

"The AFCI circuitry continuously monitors current flow through the AFCI."

If your genset is not maintaining constant RPM (dirt in carb, plugged Air Cleaner, fuel problems, etc) the AFCI may view the uneven current flow as unwanted arcing and shut down. It is only reliable if the supply of "current" is steady.

[maderj]

Has anyone else had this problem. I wasn't even going to check this but...
I have just purchased a 4000W/3500W genset. I am running 240V into a GenTran transfer switch to six circuits in my home. At no load, my frequency is at about 61Hz. However, the second that I begin to add any significant load (e.g. ceiling fan) the frequency drops to 49Hz sharply and then fluctuates between 49Hz and 54Hz. The voltage holds steady with absolutely no drop and the engine makes no noticeable difference in RPMs. Any thoughts?

On perhaps a related note, as soon as I switch to the Genset, one of my circuits that is an arc-fault breaker trips, not allowing the circuit to be powered. This did not happen with my previous generator using the same transfer switch.

[Old___Slow]

kausin komotion wrote:
Thanks to OLD & SLOW and Professor

Professor that is the equivalent of what I have now made out of plywood and 2x2's with 3.5" bolts and wing nuts 5 minutes to set it up and a little sturdier for the wind and rain and snow we get in those months in northern WI...I have glued old acoustic ceiling tiles I took out of my basement to the inside of the plywood.I just was thinking if I could add another panel like I have to block off about 3/4 of the exhaust end I could get it a little quieter without overheating??

prof may come in here and have a better understanding of what you are after. on the exhaust end, yes a end panel will help. you can extend the exhaust with a 3/4" pipe flange. use the bright metal plate from the spark arrester as a templete. drill holes that match the templete plate. you can grind the pipe flange to match if you want to go that far. use a 3/4" pipe nipple the length needed. there are several other ways that might come to mind to get the exhaust out from the end panel. with the foam experment i used a 2" pipe nipple through the foam without a melt down but was only for a temp. trial. prof has never approved the use of carpet but i use it successfully as the last layer and use fire flame=x to cover the carpet. your idea of the frame build is great as a portable setup. perhaps a pic when funished would be good. more folks hopefully will join the builders club. after 8 boxes i continue to look for new ideas. at present and for the next two months i will be one handed. i'm rearin' to finish the 3 1/2" walled box. my dream is to reach a true 55 dbA. got to work in prof's idea of the use of hardie backerboard as one layer. some sound engineers say one layer must be a sound block and one layer should absorb sound. i'm just a novice out on the town having a last fling of fun.

floyd

[kausin_komotion]

Thanks to OLD & SLOW and Professor

Professor that is the equivalent of what I have now made out of plywood and 2x2's with 3.5" bolts and wing nuts 5 minutes to set it up and a little sturdier for the wind and rain and snow we get in those months in northern WI...I have glued old acoustic ceiling tiles I took out of my basement to the inside of the plywood.I just was thinking if I could add another panel like I have to block off about 3/4 of the exhaust end I could get it a little quieter without overheating??

[professor95]

kausin komotion wrote:
I only use my champion in Oct. and Nov. and want to enclose it as much as possible.How much of an opening do you guys think I would need to leave when the temps I'm using it in are from the 50's to a low temp of around 20 ??? I'm thinking maybe just 4-5" wide gap the entire height or the enclosure in front of the muffler ?

To add to O&S's excellent suggestion, check out the photo here.

This one is made of 1/4" thick fanfold like you put under vinyl siding. Folds flat for storage under a mattress in a camper. Stick together with duct tape and weight the ground flaps with rocks. Also in the 62-64 dB range. An open cardboard box perhaps lined with aluminum foil on the muffler side would work equally as well. Another good material is the black asphalt covered sheathing board often used on houses.

Some where in the archives is a posting about using a plastic dog house for a sound abatement enclosure. Just remember to point the open end away from the end you want to have quite. Placing the open end close to a bush (couple of feet) or some other sound dispersing object also helps.

[Old___Slow]

kk,

in those temps last winter here in texas i made a enclosure with 2" foam and left only one inch space on the muffler side. cut out for the air intake to the engine and genhead and just below the fuel tank on the genhead end cut a 2" by 12" opening for the air exhaust. the inside temp was only 115 degrees. no additional fan was needed. 63/64 dbA.

floyd

[professor95]

Recently I commented in a posting that the Sunday two page color add from PepBoys Auto that had religiously featured their line of PowerPro and UST generators had disappeared from out local newspaper.

Several other forum contributors commented that their newspapers still carried the ad insert.

This got me to wondering. Why would PepBoys no longer advertise in a regional newspaper that served a metro population as large as Richmond?

So, I asked some questions of a friend who I felt should know. This is what I learned.

None of the PepBoys auto stores in this area are in Hanover County (where I live). The majority are in Chesterfield and Henrico counties. It just so happens that the nearest PepBoys to me is only about 8 miles away since I am reasonably close to a county line.

The newspaper offers to advertisers what they call “Regional Advertising”. This means that a specific store or business can choose to have their advertising flyers included only in the newspapers delivered to a specific area.

Perhaps you have noticed that some stores ask for your zip code when you make a purchase? Have you ever wondered what they do with this zip code data?

Well, they use it to target advertising.

In my area the zip code of 23111 (Mechanicsville in Hanover County) apparently is low on the list for target advertising. Makes sense since there are no PepBoys stores in Hanover County – which is pretty darn big. So, this advertiser has elected to save a few bucks by NOT including its advertising in newspapers delivered to my region.

That, my friends, is why I no longer know what generators PepBoys has on sale or featured.

The same could very well be true in your area. Thus, you could miss out on sales or special offers on generators that are right under your nose – or at least within a reasonable drive.

Just something to keep in mind if you are checking your newspaper for generator information.

I also did some investigation to find out more about TSC (Tractor Supply). While I cannot unequivocally tell you that all of this is 100% true, my information comes from an individual that I trust (BTW, this particular individual is NOT someone at CPE).

Apparently the decision to stock or not stock a certain item, like a Champion generator, is up to the store manager. If the manager is not convinced that it is to his store’s advantage to have generators in stock, they will probably have a clean shelf. On the other hand, if the manager believes that he (or she) can move them out the door like birdseed, expect to find a good inventory. This type of logic has always bothered me! How do you know how well something will sell if you do not have it on the floor to sell?

Soooo, if you have a TSC store near you that doesn’t have the little yellow Champions make a fuss to the manager and tell them that there are literally hundreds (maybe thousands?) of potential customers out there just drooling over these little yellow gensets but are not visiting his (or her) store since word is out that they do not stock them!

As for the comment that TSC starts all generators before selling them; that would be an individual store’s decision. It is apparently not a TSC policy. What does happen though, is that each and every engine that goes on a Champion genny is run tested at the factory. I have seen some photos of the process and it is really neat how they clamp the engine, provide fuel and oil as well as exhaust. The engines are tested for torque on a huge machine. If they don't pass, they are not used. Best I can explain is it looks a lot like you might if you were connected to IV's, cather, oxygen and EKG leads in a hospital (sorry if that sounds gross - but it is comparitive!).

TSC has a policy that every store employee has the authority to do what ever it takes to make the customer happy. This is posted in big letters on the wall inside every TSC store. While all TSC stores do not necessarily follow the next item in every situation, they do have a reputation of providing one of the most liberal return policies of any such retail outlet. I was once told that a customer returned a pair of worn out boots he had bought almost a year prior and they happily exchanged them for a brand new pair. The same is purportedly true of other products – buy an engine, water pump, lawnmower, etc. and if it conks out 8 months down the road take it back. They rarely send it out for repair – they just exchange it out for a new one. Keep your sales receipt!

I received my new Cabela’s 2008 Fall catalog in Friday’s mail. They are showing the Champion 3,500 watt RV ready generator on page 302 for $399.99. The wheel kit is an additional $49.99. Included with the catalog is a $20 off coupon good until October 15. No mention of shipping cost if the generator is not picked up in a store. Not the best price by any means, but certainly not the worst either.

I am still waiting to hear if Parts America (CSK and Advance Auto) is going to get a new model Champ before the first of the New Year. The factory shut down in China for the Olympic games (two months) will surely have a negative impact on the availability of all Chinese generators by October. My forecast is that we will see a significant price increase after the current Chinese genset inventory from all retailers is depleted.

[kausin_komotion]

I only use my champion in Oct. and Nov. and want to enclose it as much as possible.How much of an opening do you guys think I would need to leave when the temps I'm using it in are from the 50's to a low temp of around 20 ??? I'm thinking maybe just 4-5" wide gap the entire height or the enclosure in front of the muffler ?

[professor95]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
Yep - I completely forgot about the drop-out "feature" of the forums.
Found out the hard way on that one - suggest if anyone has some important
info they wish to hang onto - print it, download, or save it some way on
your own. An inactive thread will apparently "go away" forever after 1-yr 2yr?
(good question for the Mod on that one).

Yes, that too.

But, I was refering to another problem. When I post a photo, it actually has a link embedded to a photo hosting service. In my case, it is Photobucket.com. Sometimes one of our posters will direct us to another web site - like Tripod or, in my case, my personal web pages on Comcast.net.

Now, if I do not maintain my hosting site or choose to take the images down, the link from this thread to such a site is "dead". There are some early links I provided to a personal web page that are gone - I had to delete them to make room for newer material.

Thus, some of the past archival material is no longer accessable.

Now, as for what the keepers of the forums do with old(er) threads is a different issue. I "think" all of our stuff from March 2005 to present is still here. But, I have noted that the search function doesn't work well in finding older postings. It is like the index used to search only works well for the past few months.

Yes, maybe one of our moderators can shed some light on this. Hopefully MELM or another may be reading and add their insight?

[ol_Bombero-JC]

.

[professor95]

ol Bombero-JC wrote:
We need a volunteer(s) to list posts & pages of
this thread with valuable info like the above.

Could be done by several of "us" to cut down on time,
then combine the resulting "index".

A reader could then go to page xx for the index.

I would volunteer to do my share (50?) of the pages.

Any other takers?
JC

I'm not sure if I should commend, condemn or commit you for the effort. 😄

But, if such a listing is created (notice I am not volunteering right now) I would be more than glad to add it to my "Introduction Edit" at the very beginning of this thread. That way, new comers would either have it in hand or have a reference to where such an index could be found without yet another search.

One other thought. There are several ways the info on the forum can be displayed. My personal selection is newest first and to display as many postings per page as allowed. Thus, my pages may not equal your pages (I am currently on page 306). You would need to be sure when referencing page numbers to also include the view settings that go with them.

Last thought: I have kept the entire set of photo links used in my postings up to date so they may still be accessed, others have not. Some of the photo links posted a few years back by different contributors no longer work.

Guess you get to decide what is important since you are the first to step forward! I am sure once you start, others will follow.

Tally HO!!!!!!!!!

[Old___Slow]

recently i bought a ventage fw tioga mh class c (so young wife cound drive) it is in ment condition. it has a oem generac 4000 that runs like a charm. but, like pritch272 states, the generac is loud. the loud son of a gun will be replaced with my champion c46540 maybe even if it doesn't fail. i have figered out that the heavy duty slides from hd can be used to make a pull out set up with 3/4" plywood and it can be used like mrwizard. he has a oem, i think, pull out tray. he has stated it's pulled out for use and in for storage. my new thinking is i can use a 1150 cfm procomp fan at the bottom to cool the champ and maybe run it on the road also. recently i see prof95 showing this application in his new enclosure. anyway, the champ sounds better than the gererac.

floyd