3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[MrWizard]

professor, glad your back... you have been greatly missed

[MrWizard]

I got this in my email

Champion wheel kits

Champion offers the wheel kit for $29.99 plus shipping and handling of between $11 and $15 to almost everywhere in the US by Federal Express Ground service. It can be ordered by credit card, or debit card and shipped the same day before 3pm PST.

Anyone calling our toll free 888-696-0668 can place their order directly from us with all mounting instructions.

[MrWizard]

a little more info on alton


- The Alton unit uses a 9-pole switch and totally cuts out one winding in the 120 volt mode.. They can only potentially achieve 13.5 amps from their 120 volts outlets. They have (4) 120 volt outlets, and the 13.5 amp limit applies to either or all outlets combined, because they are all wired together and get their power from the same winding. To make matters worse, they have protected the 120 volt outlets with a single 12 amp circuit breaker. This means that their maximum electrical power at 120 volts is 120v x 12amps = 1440 watts.

it only uses 1/2 of the available generator head wiring to power the 120volt duplex receptacles

The oil change interval is every 25 hours, Spark plug replacement is every 50 hours

based on this, this would NOT be my first choice to recommend to somebody, that does not mean you can not run your furnace in a power outage, but you won't get full power at 120 volts unless you modify it

yes you can dig into and re-wire it, and if you want full power aprox 24 amps at 120v , you will need to rewire the alton to get it.

my first recommendation would be one of the OTHER Chinese generators available

buy a Champion, powerwise, WenPower pro, JD,

this is NO longer a totaly unknown product line, there have been shake outs, some are gone, others improved,

I hope buyers of brands like the Alton will, test their purchase and post the results.

good or bad so that we can all learn and make wise decisions

[Rotton_Rob]

I have been reading this forum since its beging. Thanks to the Prof and Mr Wizard and others.
I was kind of waiting for the "new" one . I won't need one till this summer. Again thanks for all the info.

[firedawg182]

Talked to a local dealer at a RV show last week, they are no longer carrying kipor generators, due to slow pay, little service support or parts. Says he will be selling yamaha soon.

[themave]

Nice post Professor, I had almost decided to stop looking at this post, because it seemed like the Champion owners where getting to be just like the Honda owners in their militancy.

I thought I would give it one more click and your post was there.

I am hoping to hear if Champion is going to release the new quieter model. Anyone have any info on the rumor ?

I already have one of the chiness clones, and am happy with it, need a second unit for work, so would like a little quieter model if it is going to come out.

[professor95]

A couple of years ago I ran across my first of many Chinese manufactured 3,000 watt class, air cooled gasoline engine open frame generators. At the time, I knew something between very little and nothing about these generators and their manufacturing process.

But, I was intrigued by the similarity of the engines used on these generators to the Honda GX line and how each available brand visually looked almost identical to a competing brand on the next shelf.

My first Chinese generator was one of the “original” Nikota’s from Pep Boys. It leaked gas, did not run smoothly and only provided 1,400 watts of power to a single 120 volt outlet. I was not impressed and returned it to Pep Boys several days later as a defective product. In exchange I took an ELM3000. The engine on the ELM was visually identical but the ELM had a switch on the front panel that allowed me to combine the generator windings so that they were parallel rather than series and provided the correct phase angle to combine the power. Thus, I could draw a full 3,000 watts at 120 volts to a single outlet. This was just what I needed for my RV.

When the “3000 Watt Chinese Generator” forum appeared on RV.Net in March of 2005, I quickly learned that I was not the only one intrigued by these Chinese clones. There were hundreds of other RVers hungry for any information on their reliability, potential power delivery, level of noise and of course availability and price. Initially, the ELM3000 was Queen on the Hill. But, alas, ELIM International did not deliver the customer service and the overall product quality that we initially believed was there.

It was about this time I began to do extensive research into the Chinese built generator lineage.

Immediately, I discovered about fifty different Chinese companies in and around Shanghai building and exporting these generators. Some were fairly well established, others were more or less fly-by-nigh. Two large foundries in the area provided castings for engines. Smaller companies bought these castings and used their own machine shop resources (CNC or Human) to finish the engines. Steel stampings for items like fuel tanks and engine shrouds were generally outsourced as well. Having the stamping dies and energy to produce these items was cost prohibitive to small companies. Thus, the similarity of these units was not just a casual coincidence.

The generator assemblies were a different story. The cores for these items were made in the individual companies from steel sheet stock and wound according to the individual company’s specs. The overall quality of the generator head, wiring, voltage regulation, switches, etc. was pretty much up to the individual manufacturers.

I also discovered that I could order a pallet of as few as 25 of these generators from several dozen Chinese builders with my logo printed on the front. Gee Whiz, I could start a whole new brand under the “Professor” name and market them on e-Bay to any buyer with a Pay Pal account.

But, the underlying problem was that the warranty was worthless, many parts were not interchangeable due to individual machine practices and the electrical part of the unit was often “questionable”. The fact that they all looked alike did not in any way assure that they were equally reliable and functioned as advertised.

After about a year the RV consumer market seemed to come down to the Wen PowerPro, JD build units (Harbor Freight, Cummings, early ELM), and Champion Power Equipment.

Eventually, the Champion became the “defacto preferred brand” since it offered full wattage from a single 30 amp RV style outlet; was built, imported and distributed by the same company. Offered good customer service, warranties and parts that fit when needed.

This does not mean that other brands, like the Wen PowerPro should be avoided. In fact, this week’s advertised price on the Pep Boys PowerPro 3000 at $229.00 (after $50 rebate) is a real head jerker.

Admittedly, I have become partial to the Champion Power Equipment line. In my old age I value economy but I also value my time. I like knowing who I can call when I need help and that I can get the parts needed quickly. I also like the idea of one company having control over manufacturing, shipping and distribution.

In closing, this is still the “3000 Watt Chinese Generator Forum”. I do not want to change the name. I hope it will continue to serve the RV community as it has in the past as a source of current and accurate information of the products available that may meet our needs. I also hope it will not ever become a forum where we “bash” other’s opinions and choices for the product they may choose to buy. The market is diverse and constantly changing. A savvy, knowledgeable buyer constantly strives to stay abreast of the market, products, prices and opportunities. This forum has served that purpose very well!

[MrWizard]

your control panel is more advanced and has more features, I do not have a built in inverter charge combo

my inverter is is a separate 600 watt I added and the converter is a WFCO 55 amp i installed in 2005

[stevelv]

The monitor panel is the one that controls the inverter/charger etc and shows the DC voltage and the DC current so not sure if that's the same as you have.

One thing I did notice when connected to 50amp shore power was that the standard load shedder EMS - the one that shows gen/50/30/20 was only showing 30amp and not 50. I haven't had a chance to test it again so it may have been the campsite post. The DC Inverter panel worked OK on that power input.

I'll check the output of the genny with a digital meter tomorrow.

[MrWizard]

I would check the connections on the dogbone and the generator duplex outlet

and i would get a digital multimeter and verify the voltage at the outlet

the monitor panel should be powered by the converter ( 12volts ) and the genny line noise should not be passing thru the converter into the 12 volts, unless the converter has a problem , or there is a wrong connection someplace, an open ground, or a neutral bonded to ground

neutral on the generator is not bonded to ground

when measuring AC voltage you will measure 120 from neutral to hot

and aprox 60 volts AC between neutral and ground OR hot and ground

this is normal for the generator

the ground of the duplex is the generator frame, which IS not earth-grounded bond, unless you drove a ground rod

I have used one of those 1200's with NO problems, but my coach is not your coach, and I do not know the condition of the wiring in your coach, and mine bring older nad a different mfg, does not have the same monitor panel

[stevelv]

I'm not sure I can wade through 295 pages to find the answer to this so maybe someone can give me a quick reply.

I have a champion 1200w chinese genny - connected it today to the 50amp service through a dogbone and the electrical monitor panel on my 2002 Beaver Santiam went haywire flashing all of the leds like a christmas tree. Switched off and disconnected. Voltage seems to be ok but I guess the signal is a bit noisy.

What can I put in place between the generator and the 50amp service to make it all work? Is there some sort of signal conditioner that doesn't cost and arm and a leg that I can use?

[jimmyfred]

...........Well , count me IN as another Champion owner . I picked up my 4000 watt unit from tractor supply and have it sitting under the overhang of my trailer . I ran it for an hour or so while testing various combination(s) of loads to establish a baseline for what I will beable to "Plugin" if we loose all grid power . We , here in north central texas are probably going to have an ice storm starting sometime around 3am Sunday and continuing on into monday morning AM .
..........So , I ran Mr. Gen-sing for about an hour letting him break himself in so he'll be ready to "roll" should we loose power . My main goal here is to keep my tamks from freezing and run my electric blanket so I don't freeze either . Might even beable to make a pot of coffee if I switch the fridge over to gas . jf

[MrWizard]

Everyone in this Country is free to exercise their choices when making purchases. They are also free to ignore any advice they may have been given. It is just bad manners, I guess, to chastise those who comment when asked what they think about a product, when you don't like the answers that you get. In short, if you don't like the answers, ignore them.

I will add, you will get Honest opinions, of what we think, IF you don't want an honest opinion don't ask the question, Don't seek justification after the fact.

if your confident in your purchase you don't need justification, if your having second thoughts, then return it while you can.

many of the 'FIRST' wave of chinese generic generators ("ELM or ELIM", Jiung Dong or JD,Power Pro etc)( the ones that caused the Professsor to start this thread ) are still performing the job they were bought for. the popularity spawned many clones, Champion chose to go their own way , and has emerged as the leader, thats all there is too it.

[Oldfordman]

MrWizard wrote:
it seems we have some people that ignored the advice they ask for, then want us to justify it for them,

I have found this very frequently the case in this thread as well as others on this forum.

The question is often asked and when the answers don't support their decision people take offense.

As to the "so-called experts", I would say that most everyone that has responded on questions regarding the Champion Generators at least owns one and has some experience with them (good and bad). At least they aren't "Real Experts" that don't own one and just call them "Contractor Generators", "Chainsaw Generators", or more simply "Junk".

Everyone in this Country is free to exercise their choices when making purchases. They are also free to ignore any advice they may have been given. It is just bad manners, I guess, to chastise those who comment when asked what they think about a product, when you don't like the answers that you get. In short, if you don't like the answers, ignore them.

[Yoslick]

I think we are starting to get a little off base here, this was a great place to find out the latest and greatest on simple Chinese Generators, how to be safe, and simple mod's the avg joe could do to make up for any short comings from the mfg... Now it's becoming a mines better than yours/finger pointing subject, hate to say it but it might be time to do a summary and lock er down........jmho..

Slick!