3000W Chinese Gensets Info.

[professor95]

professor95 wrote:
EDIT ADDED 45/5/2013- When this thread started in March of 2005, I never expected to see it survive this long or amass the quantity of information that has been shared here.

In the eight year run of this thread we have amassed almost 10,000 postings and surpassed a million views. This creates somewhat of a dilemma for anyone who has just discovered the forum.

Since the amount of information is virtually overwhelming, I suggest you set your preferences for this thread to read "newest first" and then begin to page backwards.

What you will find in these pages is a wealth of info on virtually any make or model of Chinese manufactured synchronous (non-inverter) generator in the 3,000 watt performance class. Info will include how to rewire series coils to parallel to obtain maximum wattage from a single 120 volt outlet. Tips on further reducing sound levels, how to care for these generators, which ones are "RV ready" and provide the best overall performance for the dollar invested. Which companies NOT to deal with, where the best prices are, how to safely wire the generator into a home or RV, how to check your RV for electrical faults, sources for generator accessories, which 20/30 adapters are safe to use and which are not. How to convert a gasoline generator to propane or NG. This is only the beginning. The forum has a life of its own with the focus sub-topic switching frequently. Still, the main topic of utilizing the amazing, inexpensive Chinese gensets is always there. The amount of creativity and innovation presented in these pages is indicative of the talents shared in the diverse backgrounds of the folks who make up our combined RV community.

Many of the original brands and models of Chinese gensets mentioned in the introduction and early pages of the thread have since disappeared. New EPA and CARB emissions requirements, company bonds assuring the emissions warranty will be honored even if the company goes out of business, and fierce competition in the industry have changed the playing field. Champion Power Equipment has become the apparent "trophy team" providing an ever expanding retail outlet, an ample parts supply, a strong warranty and excellent customer service. CPE has continued to improve their product and now offers a new model (#46538) with exclusive convenience, safety and performance features aimed at the RV market. Big names like Cummins/Onan, Honda and Generac all now have Chinese built open frame synchronous gensets available. Ironically, the prices often found on these gensets has not significantly changed during the past eight years - even with the devaluation of the American Dollar and new EPA/CARB requirements.

I also encourage you to use the search function and even the advanced search options to find information. Key works such as "rewiring", "PowerPro", "Champion", "Onan Homesite", "Duropower", "ETQ", "Jiung Dong or JD", "Tractor Supply", "Costco", "Lowe's" and "Home Depot" are all examples of keywords that will give you specific information on different models being sold by retailers today.

Or, you can fill your glass with your favorite beverage (keep more close by - maybe some munchies as well :D, sit back at your computer, tell your wife (or significant other) that you will see her in the morning and spend the next 10 or so hours reading through the postings.

No one on the forum gets mad if you ask a question that is a repeat. Please do not hesitate to post to the forum. All questions are considered important and those active on the forum will do their best to respond with a valid answer.

Also note we are not out to knock the Honda, Yamaha, Kipor or other brands of high end digital gensets. We recognize the quality of these products and their suitability for quite, efficient RV use. But, there is a flood of reliable, inexpensive and comparatively lower cost gensets coming out of China that are excellent alternative choices for the RVer wanting power to run an air conditioner, microwave, etc. without excessive noise or breaking the budget.

Oh, one last thing. The folks on this forum are true gentlemen. We do not flame one another or the product discussed - period. Ugly contributors usually have their comments and remarks ignored by our masses. It is not a forum to start arguments to obtain a clear win. We do disagree on many issues, but we have all agreed to do that in a respectable manner.

We now have the introduction of more and more inverter gensets. There is a rather extensive thread named "The Official Unofficial Champion 2000i Generator" on this forum. Today, I added info on the new Champion 3100i inverter genset. Discussion on this product may get moved to its own thread at a later date.

Many have looked upon this thread with distain saying Chinese is cheap and doomed to failure. I remember saying exactly the same thing about Japanese products a few decades back. But, over the past eight years the track record for Chinese built generators has shown otherwise.

Please, join us in a fascinating journey down the Chinese built genset road of knowledge.

This is the question I posted that got it all started back in March 2005.......

Randy

For a little over a month now, I have been somewhat intrigued by the availability of a 3000 watt, 6.5 HP generator at Pep Boys and Northern Tool for under $300.00. The engine on this generator looks identical to a Honda 6.5 HP OHV engine. Knowing that the Chinese have become very adept at “cloning” reputable technologies from other manufacturers, I was not surprised at the similarities. Neither store could give me any information on the generator nor did they have a “running” display model.

I have done a little research. This is what I have discovered:

Many of these generators are imported by ELIM International (www.eliminternational.com) out of Buffalo, New York from Jiung Manufacturing in China. (The unit at Northern is identical but carries the JIUNG name.)

The engines are indeed a Chinese knockoff of the popular 6.5 HP 196cc Honda Engine. “Supposedly” Honda has licensed the engine technology to the Chinese manufacturer of the product.

The Chinese company that makes the ELM3000 generators is a rather large, diverse, long-standing company with a reputation for “above average quality” Chinese made products (Jiung Manufacturing). There are many more Chinese companies making almost identical gensets.

The generators at PepBoys do have a six month limited warranty. But, it is only on the engine (not the generator) and requires paying for shipping to and from Buffalo. Probably not a very practical thing to do if you have warranty issues.

ELIM does supply replacement parts (a PDF parts manual is available on the ELIM web site). No prices are given for replacement parts nor is there an “availability listing”.

The generator head itself is a brushless design. The only really significant wear parts in the generator are the bearings – most likely universally available.

The published dB rating is 67 at 23 feet. This is “reasonably” quite for a generator of this size as most comparabl.... The 67 dB rating is the same as Honda gives their 3000 watt CycloInverter with a “look alike” eng...

[professor95]

The pigtail thing should be safe if done properly - meaning no bare wires, feed out through rubber grommet or non-conductive material, proper reference to plug polarity, and adequate strain relief.

[Rocky7184]

DaveVa78Chieftain wrote:
Rather than use a dogbone adaptor to connect my 30 amp RV plug to the ELM3000, I purchased a 30 amp RV pigtail (used for repairing 30 amp cables) from Campers World and wired it directly to the unused terminals on the rear of the 110VAC recepticle. I attached the pigtail to the frame of the ELM3000. Now all I do is plug in the RV cable to the 30 amp plug. The regular 110VAC sockets are still available when not using the generator to provide power to the RV. Just remember it not use both the regular 110VAC plugs and the RV plug at the same time to prevent overloading the generator.

Dave

Is this method of attaching a 30amp rv pigtail safe.It makes sense to have a dedicated 30amp plug so the rv can be directly plugged into the genny.Is this procedure really as simple as accessing the back of the 110v outlet and attaching the pigtail??
When it comes to a project that sounds real easy it usually(in my case)isn't.This one seems to be a no brainer that everyone would want to do.

Any thoughts Prof95 or anyone else for that matter.


jeff

[catalina30]

catalina30 wrote:
Quote:

in the case of a single phase genset you could label the windings from left to right as 1(black)2/3(yellow)4(red). if you split the 2/3(yellow) and then run 2(yellow) to 4(black) and 3(yellow) to 1(red) you then have a 110 only machine. .

Kevin
Catalina30

Not good! I should have read before I posted this. correction in order:

goes like this (black)1 and (yellow)3 tied together. (yellow)2 and (red)4 tied together. for 110 machine.Note: check with multimeter black and (yellow)2 are same coil red and (yellow)3 are same coil.

did you say most of the noise comes from the what?where the recoil starter is. that is what I thought but have nothing to test it with. when I bought the machine I set it out in the drive and started it, then I just covered it with the box it came in, I could have had a candle light dinner right next to it with out having a problem, so I know I can do something to quiet it down. ( it ran out of "O" and quit in a very short time so no harm was done. anyhow I think I have a fix for the noise will report when it is complete and tested,by ear.

also what I went on the net for was a manual so I could figure out more about the motor and carb so I could order a kit, my plan is to convert to propane/gas, the noise is not the only objection I have to a gas or diesel genset. when this is done I will post how things work.

Kevin
catalina30

[professor95]

I will be glad to post the diagrams for you, Kevin. email is rtagee@comcast.net.

[professor95]

LittleBill wrote:
it looks like a feild diode going into avalanche, and then recovering.

At this point, I believe LittleBill has the most logical answer.

Try this: Go to Harbor Freight's web site. http://www.harborfreight.com

Where it wants a product model number type in 91213 - this is for a JD generator similar to the ELM3000(L).

Scroll down to the bottom of the 91213 listing and select download the PDF version of the parts manual.

Go to page 22 of the manual and look at the schematic diagram.

I strongly suspect D1 and D2 are avalanche diodes acting as voltage regulators. The initial spike in the waveform is the rapid rise in voltage. The diode supplies avalanche breakdown at this point, conducting the excess voltage past R1 and R2.

I am not positive on this........... Avalanche diodes are not something I use on a regular basis. I also intend to do some more research on brushless alternator theory before I stand up and say this is exactly what is happening.

In any event, I do not see the deviation as harmful to any equipment. "It ain't no pure sine wave", but your RV appliances will never know the difference.

So, tech guys, what do you think?

[catalina30]

Quote:

"Another often misunderstood concept is that a GFCI needs a grounding connection (note the "ing" on the end of ground). It doesn't. All it needs is a neutral (ground) and a hot wire feeding it. The fault is detected and set when current in the two feed wires is unequal, indicating that another current path is being followed - perhaps through you! This makes a GFCI even more desirable when a separate grounding connection independent of the circuit ground is not available. "

Professor,
went to answers.com looked up GFCI. they tell us that it is a breaker of sorts but it is not a overload protection device. as far as needing a ground thank you for reminding me, I had a blond moment. NEC tells us that expanding existing work without a grounding conductor the first device must be a GFCI. you are right and I am wrong on the grounding thing and I should know better.

the windings in the genset are wound for single phase, it is single phase in 110 and 220 so the phases are in line no matter just a matter of wireing in parallel or series. No I didn't put them on the scope to view the phase, just took what I know about motor windings and transformer windings and brought the wires into conformance with what it takes to run in parallel. please note that motors that are dual voltage have there winding brought out to the conection box. in the case of a single phase genset you could label the windings from left to right as 1(black)2/3(yellow)4(red). if you split the 2/3(yellow) and then run 2(yellow) to 4(black) and 3(yellow) to 1(red) you then have a 110 only machine. the number of conductors inside the unit are 4 this is because they used smaller magnet wire than required for the output and paralleled them. If you would like to post diagrams I will send them to you, I don't know how to post. and don't have a page. also the libility scares me.

Kevin
Catalina30

[n7bsn]

RadioNeal wrote:
Well I don't know. There are no contacts, it's brushless. I tried putting a 4MFD capacator accross the line, and it amplified the numerous small sawtooth waves along the wave in between the peaks. They diminish as load increases.

I'm guessing that the large dip which occurs near the peak of each wave when under load represents the "dead spot" in between poles, but I'm not sure. Just a guess. The dip increases as load increases.

I suspect it's more likely that the back-emf is breaking down the permanent field. As can be seen by the load effecting the dip

Personally I would check into getting this fixed, the output shouldn't be that ugly

[MrWizard]

the coleman pm 1400 I had about 10 years ago , had a briggs engine, the ones just 2 years ago had honda engines

radioneal

did you do a waveform on the unit wired for 220..

I know what that big jig looks like to me,

it looks like a feild diode going into avlanche, and then recovering.

if you have a componet wave tracer available you might want to check across those feild windings and see if both wave forms match..

I could be wrong, it's just what it looks like to me.

[hgarraway]

This looks like a new shipment. Great price but not sure about shipping.

Link to Ebay item

Hugh

[professor95]

I tried some sound abatement experiments yesterday with the ELM3000. I have posted some images and info at http://home.comcast.net/~rtagee/wsb/index.html. You can quick click here:ELM3000 Sound Abatement

Again, this link is the result of one of those cheesy quick and dirty home page generation programs for site creation within space given to me by my ISP. I don't have a lot of design leeway here, but it is fast and easy to generate!

As previously posted, the ELM3000 (or Powerwise 3500) muffler is extremely quite. So much so that there is little room for further sound abatement. The majority of sound is mechanical and comes from the shroud side of the engine. You will note in the photos I simply ended up placing a section of 3-1/2" fiberglass batting next to the shroud end of the engine and across about 1/2 of the gas tank. I also put a small piece on the back to close the gap at the corner where the air filter is. This method gave the best results. I did not include photos of my boxes lined with rubber carpet padding or the other enclosures I tried with no real improvement in sound reduction. Oh yea, the 69 dBbreading on the sound meter in the last frame came from the shroud side of the engine before any insu... sound reduction (to 64dB) directly behind the generator at 20 feet distance. This 3dB is significant. The ambient sound level without the generator running that day was about 56 to 58 d...

[RadioNeal]

Well I don't know. There are no contacts, it's brushless. I tried putting a 4MFD capacator accross the line, and it amplified the numerous small sawtooth waves along the wave in between the peaks. They diminish as load increases.

I'm guessing that the large dip which occurs near the peak of each wave when under load represents the "dead spot" in between poles, but I'm not sure. Just a guess. The dip increases as load increases.

n7bsn wrote:

RadioNeal wrote:
Having WAY too much time on my hands today, I hooked my scope up to the ELM3000 and I took a few pictures of the ELM3000 running at different loads.

....

Yuk

Actually if you look at the "jig" in the leading edge of both the positive and negitive wave forms you realise that those are not harmonics. They are occuring at the same point in each wave, with no evidence of there being an other half. In fact the "crap" appears to have the same period as the "primary" period.

I would guess there is somethng wrong in the contacts

[RadioNeal]

Hi Professor,

I took a look at your site. Great collection of pictures. Really puts mine to shame, although the ELM3000 waveforms are very similar.

I also have a Coleman Powermate PMA5255500 5500 / 6875 Watt generator. If I get the time, I'll take some waveform photos of its output. I can maybe do same for my ancient Coleman PM1500, which is, under the hood, a Kawasaki I believe. At least the engine has a Kawasaki nameplate.

Thanks again for those great pictures, and all the useful information.

--Neal
PS Is the large rubber mallet shown in the Generac photo used for starting the engine, or for shutting it down?;-)

[n7bsn]

RadioNeal wrote:
Having WAY too much time on my hands today, I hooked my scope up to the ELM3000 and I took a few pictures of the ELM3000 running at different loads.

....

Yuk

Actually if you look at the "jig" in the leading edge of both the positive and negitive wave forms you realise that those are not harmonics. They are occuring at the same point in each wave, with no evidence of there being an other half. In fact the "crap" appears to have the same period as the "primary" period.

I would guess there is somethng wrong in the contacts

[professor95]

To Toprudder and RadioNeal:

Actually, I made photos of various waveforms several weeks back as well and posted them on the forum. This was on page 19 of 33, or March 24th. You can view the web site containing the images here:
http://home.comcast.net/~professor95/wsb/index.html
For comparison purposes, you might want to check it out.

This forum has gotten so big, it is hard to keep up with what has, or has not, been covered. It could take hours to read and digest the info in all of the posts! So, IMHO, a little repeating is a good thing.

I would really like to see what the waveforms are for the Onan and some other non inverter generators as well.

[professor95]

Great information on the Nikota, Kevin. I always suspected more power could be obtained from the unit while maintaining single phase operation, but not owning one that I could disect, I could never be sure.

I wonder if you have looked at the combined output with an oscilloscope to be sure you are not generating 110 volts with two independent phases? Many appliances will work well with a second phase, but others will let their smoke out. I would really be interested in learning how you verified this.

Perhaps other Nikota owners will want to contact you with specific details on the conversion. Maybe you could even post some images on one of the photo hosting sites. But, for those without the technical expertise, concern for warranties, or just wanting a "plug and play" generator, the mods may be more than folks can safely handle.

In the posts I have seen there is comment about Gfci cords, although I am not that familiar with these products I will state that gfci is not a breaker in most cases. therefore if it is rated at 20A that does not mean 20A protection as in breaker. only that the device will handle 20A, please check into this. also if you do not have a good ground the gfci will not do what it is intended to do, that is protect you from a fault, or at least not as well as it should, I can't see driving a ground rod in at every stop so don't look for to much protection from one in this application.

Actually, all residential GFCI devices are also circuit breakers that will trip with a current overload as well as a fault. This holds true for both the type that replace a duplex outlet or are installed in a SEP (service entrance pannel). It is true that commercial and industrial GFCIs that operate well above the current demands of residential appliances often will not have overcurrent protection - but you won't find those at Home Depot or Lowe's.

Another often misunderstood concept is that a GFCI needs a grounding connection (note the "ing" on the end of ground). It doesn't. All it needs is a neutral (ground) and a hot wire feeding it. The fault is detected and set when current in the two feed wires is unequal, indicating that another current path is being followed - perhaps through you! This makes a GFCI even more desirable when a separate grounding connection independent of the circuit ground is not available.

Anyway, the GFCI is a great little device that definitely should be used in ALL outdoor power connections (actually the NEC requires it to be used for code compliance in all small appliance branch circuits of 20 ampres or less). I know for a fact that GFCIs have saved many lives! (mine included).

From my personal perspective, it is a pleasure to have you on the forum. Your discoveries about the Nikota are the type I enjoy reading the most. I hope you will be able to provide more specific detail on your wiring changes to the Nikota 3500 unit.