Another AGM conditioning question

[Naio]

This is my chassis battery, an agm I got used and have little experience with.

Trickle charger failed in storage, it is dead as a doornail. Not covenient to babysit it for long hours on meanwell or bring it home. Would it be bad to do the following?

Charge overnight on 14.4v, 10amp smart charger. Then condition with meanwell another day.

???

[Smitty77]

Back to Lifeline~~~! The full bank of L16's has never dropped below 13A these last few weeks of trying.

-Probably 36 hours over a 48 hour period of steady 14.4V. 15A often, and a few times 13A, then it would jump up again to 15 or 18A...
-I figure the odd's are I overcharged the battery somehow, more then just a few times, via the Magnum/Solar and Alternator... So if that is the case, I've probably used up the magic juice.
-BUT, in case the battery was under charged and 'walked down' and caused sulfating to build up. Only Conditioning/Equalizing would have a chance to shake this loose.

So try shaking it loose via Equalizing/Conditioning... And if it works, great. If the mat's are dried out, all it will do is dry them more... In current battery capacity health, I'd replace them before extended traveling with them. So, if dried out and overcharged was the problem - this attempt of Equalizing/Conditioning will only add to the final usage of capacity...

And as my wife know, I'm often wrong... In the next few weeks we'll know if this is another example of this being so:)!

Smitty

[Smitty77]

MW - Thank you!

My wife's Uncle Jack, and his wife Nancy, had 62nd anniversary last year. 5 'kids', now of course adults. 15 Grand Kids. Uncle Jack is in the Top 10 people that influenced my life. He's in Florida (Mickey's World, in Winter Park of Orlando.), and I'm in California. I first met them with the help of an RV. A rented Southwind 30' U-Haul rental, we drove non stop from San Diego to Florida. Longest stop was for a Costco lasagna dinner near Houston at a rest stop!. This was 38 years ago now... Uncle Jack and I have had probably less then 10 in person visits together over the years. But, since he kept an eye on his 'Little Sister', now 78 years young - he'd call and talk with me on the side a few times a year. He wanted to be sure she was OK, and as I was the Southern California Dude of the family - he depended on me to keep and eye on things.

I'll stop here, other then to say these few visits in person. Along with a couple phone conversations a year - was enough that he passed on wisdom without preaching. Not always easy to do.

Proud to call him family, and proud to know his family. And privilege to have his Niece as my Dear Wife...

Do appreciate your kind words... THANK YOU!
Smitty

[MEXICOWANDERER]

If you achieve one half percent amp hour capacity amperage at 14.4 volts the Lifelines are charged. Work on that goal. There is zero reason I can get 10 years out of a Lifeline and you only get five all things being equal.

Shallower cycles, high amperage recharges and full charge once a week will be the Fountain of Youth for any AGM...and a hell of a lot cheaper.

The most profound condolences to you and your's about your loss. Watching parent's, siblings, and finally friends, passing, has to be the most detestable part of growing old. These days I am almost afraid to re-establish contact with friends that have gone unheard from for many months. I usually have a sarcastic bit of humor for most things but this isn't one of them... 😞

[Smitty77]

Wanted to update that I've not done much:)! (DW's Uncle had a heart attack Tuesday night, so we decided to cancel our trip and get back so the DW could be with her Mom. We lost him early Thursday AM.)

So RV back in San Diego now, and while DW, MIL and BIL are gone to Florida for the services next week. I'm going to call Lifeline for some advice.

After reading this thread, and about 50-75 others from searching RV'ing and Boating Community Forums, I've come up with a theory or two on what happened to this bank of L16's.

1) If my Magnum settings, of using SOC 100% charge to finish the charging cycle, resulted in battery Walk Down and sulfation build up. Then running Conditioning cycles may break some of the crud off of the Mats(Plates).

2) Or during the ~ 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 years I had both the Magnum and Solar MidNite Classic Controller both on and seeing juice to the bank, I may have Overcharged the bank. If this used up the juice and dried out the matts, they're goner batteries.

As I read the Lifeline Tech Manual, the bank does not behave like a deeply discharged battery that they talk about performing the 'Recovery' process on. The 8.5V Fault Error code on the Magnum, was at under load, and at the end of what I believe I observed to be a rapidly cascading/fading battery charge.

So this makes me feel it's number 2, where I've used up the juice on these mats... I believe I would have seen the same behavior of the lower capacity. The attempts of longer runs of Absorb at 14.4V never tapering below 13Amps, and at times even going back up to 15, 18 Amps - could be the results of the charge going in having nothing left in the battery (dried out matts) to absorb the charge.

So will ask Lifeline if they feel I should:

-Bang away with another series of Conditioning runs. (It is a big bank, and if I do have number 1 going on with sulfating being in the play - it may take longer to try to knock things off. IF, they have not hardened in places too much to ever be de-sulfated.

-Remove the bank and take to a shop they recommend for Recovery.

Regardless of what they're recommendation is, I'll review my settings on the MidNite Classic 150 Controller as well as the Magnum MS2812. As both of these should be sophisticated enough to play well with each other. Having both on is an advantage, in case of power outages, the solar can keep the batteries from completely draining... (Though where we park it between buildings, it does not get more then 3-4 hours of good sun.)

If I need to replace them now, well, that will become another full thought process on my part. Bad timing budget wise for us. I'd planned on going to Lithium based banks when the Lifeline's needed replacement. But, if I'm having trouble keeping AGM's properly maintained - well, that is a much more expensive proposition when you talk about losing Lithium. And frankly, the DW has a desire for less boon docking then we did in our early years with the Lifeline's. So justifying the costs to jump to Lithium is harder to do. Lifeline's again? Well if I find that I was the root cause of the problem by either over or under charging this bank. Then yes, I would go Lifeline's again. If I find no settings off, and the bank of to me gently used Lifeline's were used up at 5 years of age - then I'll do more bargain priced shopping for the next bank of AGM's. No reason to pay premium price for batteries that should have yielded longer years of usage based upon DoD Life Cycle consumption - IF, they don't actually yield those longer years to balance out the higher purchase price.

But before talking about battery replacement, I'm going to go thru the process with Lifeline for their input.

I'll next update what the conclusion, if any, is from the review with Lifeline... Then, I'll move on from this thread:)!

Best to you all, and thanks again for all of your input,
Smitty

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Mexico and the USA are sooooooooo much alike..................

Woman blocks aisle with her shopping cart. Hanging onto the handle with one hand -- cellular stuffed in her ear relating her day's movements, in one minute increments. "Well then, I said to Juanita..."

"If I Were You" Dept...

I'd do the best I could with what I had. But testing and analysis can be skipped. Working with crippled batteries makes testing the batteries a moot point.

You could do an amp hour meter qualification.

[Smitty77]

Samsun Kilowatts for 24 hours = 1.71 which comes out to abut 142 Amps.

Looked at my notes from when we first installed the Samsung and were confirming power consumption, and Had very similar numbers. I also saw in my notes to round up, and I used 180 Amps per 24 hour period. For KISS (And I do at times equate to the last "S":)!), I used 12 hours of no solar or generator, so about 80 Amps draw overnight to support the Samsung.

Again following my notes, I used 15 amps for inverter inefficiencies as well as miscellaneous parasitic draws, per hour. So over 12 hours thats 180 Amps.

180 Amps + 80 Amps = 220 Amps.

Battery bank 800AH's, so 400 Amps useable. So I felt i had just 20 Amps over using 25% discharge potential from my bank.

In reality, probably due to cooler temps at night, less fridge opening at night I was seeing 100 + or - 15 AH's usage over night. On rare occasions, like using the Hydro Hot for heating the coach, 120 to 135 AH's. So, I concluded my bank was more then sizable enough to get me thru the night, and even a few days of less the full recharge if needed.

I guess that's the good news, that the Samsung is consuming in the same ballpark park that it always has.

Which then, leads me back to the Batteries are just not holding up in AH output capacity:)!

By the way, lowest I saw on Absorb cycle today (Got interrupted and did not see any readings the last 30 mins of the 4 1/2 run, was 18A. Now in Float at 12A.

I'm going repeat the test once it's cool enough for us to shut of shore power (On now for the AC:)!). And hope to time it better and see the Absorb Amps when it like in 4H 15 -20 M into the cycle. Suspect then I'll just set it back to 2 1/2 or maybe 3 hours for Absorb.

MW - I've enjoyed your posts. Cranky? Well if you say so. And by the way, were you near Mesa, AZ Costco in that chariot of battery powered wheels? I almost got run over twice by the same shifty eyed gent. Perhaps our paths crossed:)!

And again, my thanks to all of you for your help. And for the OP for letting me tag along on this thread:)!

Best to all,
Smitty

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Back from a morning's hobble and electric cart hijack at Costco.

• Whenever meter readings do not jibe and I am left scratching my head...
• I test the meter
• A 100-watt incandescent 12-volt light bulb draws 7.40 amps. If your wall meter shows different then the whole system is suspect...parts and or assembly
• This is where a DC handheld inductive tester is invaluable. If it says 3.8 amps and your panel meter says 6.7 amps stop the music
• I purchased a 100-ampere 100mv Manganin lab shunt off eBay for eight dollars. Ran a foot of eight gauge to each side of the shunt
• Huge steel jaw clamps to the ends of the 8 gauge
• I can connect anything to anything in a jiffy. Disconnect pos battery cable. Clip one jaw to this cable the other to the evacuated battery post
• Set a DMM to the milli-volt scale
• ONE millivolt = one ampere across the shunt
• Since the resolution of the DMM is finer than one millivolt fractions of amps can be resolved
• This qualifies or disqualifies anything else I own
• A few times down the gilded path of BS readings led me to not blindly trust anything anymore.

Barring this level of accuracy, that inductive panel DC ammeter that Mr. Wizard so kindly pointed out to me, is an acceptable substitute. The current MUST BE READ on a single cable going to a single connection on the battery post. No multiple wires on any battery post. That's what bussbars are for and this is where I catch a majority of amp hour meter errors at.

• Take the current needed to light the DC lamp test base. For simplicity lets call the draw 7.5 amps
• Eliminate every other draw in the rig
• 0.00 amps showing on all meters
• Including the rig's panel amp hour meter
• Turn on the light bulb. Leave it on for four hours
• The sum of 7.5 x 4 is?
• 30.0
• Yes amperage declines as voltage goes down but unless you are running a tiny house battery Delta T span error will be minimal. No compensation needed
• Wanna play lab tech? Add the sum of the beginning voltage (after surface charge removed) with the voltage shown at the end of the test
• 12.7 + 12.3
• ----25--- right?
• Divide by (2)
• 12.5 right?
• Not enough variance to amount to snot for this test
• Does the amps + time agree with your amp hour meter amp hour reading?
• It doesn't?
• Guess which gizmo is wrong. It isn't guesswork, this is hard facts...

[Smitty77]

Still waiting for the 3:00PM Samsung 24 hour usage Kill-A-Watt reading. (Will leave it off for a few more days to get a better average. But it should give me quick indication on if it's consuming a great deal more AH's then had before.

Mentioned that I had turned off the shore power to run the bank of L16's down so that I could go back into a normal charge cycle. I did, after setting the absorb out to the 3 1/2 hour mark (And before it ended, I bumped it out to the 4 1/2 hour mark. All at 14.4V).

Turned on the power, waited for the thud of the ATS and for the Magnum charger to kick in. It did, went to Bulk at 131 Amp. Within 10 mins it was in Absorb and down to 128-129 Amp. Went on a hike, and at three just under three hours its now at 18 Amp. Looking forward to see it drop below 13-15 Amp:)!

While on the hike, I reflected about my storage area while at the S&B's. The coach is parked between two structures and depending upon the time of the year, get's direct sun from ~10:30AM to 1:30PM. So I bet the Solar feeding Classic 150 controller never reached Ending Amps of 4 Amps. Suspect while we're out and traveling, the Solar was finishing the charge down to the 4 Amp level. Even on shore power, the first 4 years or so, I left both the Solar and Power on at the sometime, and let the two 'brains' sort things out. I do recall seeing the SOC in Full (Via SOC being 100%), and yet still seeing the Solar's Classic 150 controller still being in Absorb mode.

So probably a reason the bank has not complained earlier, is because:
-They were robust enough batteries to take a beating
-And while traveling off and on 6-8 months out of the year, the Solar would get the bank down to 4 Amps acceptance charge...

About 5-6 months ago, I started to turn off the Solar Controller when on Shore Power to avoid any potential conflict. So I probably accelerated the reach to where I am today by doing so... Outsmarted myself on that one:)!

Check in later for another addition of Smitty's Battery World:)! (Will share the Samsung 2 hour result, and update if we ever got down to below 13-15 Amp with this Absorb cycle.)

Smitty

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Many of my responses are cranky. Sometimes very trying to navigate in a world of pain -- it really shortens my patience. @#$%&! USA doctors are terrified of administering hyualaronic acid injections (proven miracle in my case) without a 13-step hassle of appointments with a "Pain Specialist" who is terrified because of DEA threats of absolutely unrelated opioid crisis strictness. Then I have to argue with the doctor the injected into the joints medication works. Frustration R Me, time. This is like criminalizing heroin and including vitamin C. Incompetence. And it carries over to battery advice and device promotion by con artists who can't find their *** with both hands and a mirror. This does not include consumers except if they play ventriloquist to con artist promoting.

I can only hope I am forgiven for my transgressions in my responses.

When I respond to many issues I wax inclusive and include comments that address a larger audience. Hopefully it will prove to be of some value to other than the OP. Minimum time spent, minimum effort expended, and the fewest fraction of a cent spent on a maximum of kWh lifespan is my goal.

Now that the caveats have been covered...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The point of the problem of the Lifelines has been covered. If a decrease of capacity of an AGM is noted, do the Lifeline exercise regardless if the AGM is of a different brand. Their plate alloy is similar 1.300 specific gravity and the plate occlusion works exactly the same. Yes it is a hassle. Yes it is worth every minute of effort. All brands of AGM battery. Try recovery first then see what it did...

My years-long experiments with frequency modulated fracturing of latticed sulfation was an utter disappointment. You have to understand I did not pull up a chair and waste my time twiddling my thumbs. I had lifespan tests underway. I rebuilt alternators and dealt with vendor issues all in the same day. I would have gone broke had I not multi-tasked.

I am too stupid or too much a nerd to be a con artist. When I decoupled a jar lid from a case and then dissected plates to be studied under a 10x loupe examining the plate was an absolute not guesswork or hypothesis.

Nothing I tried worked ant better than application of straight DC wattage to the plate. I wish it did. I would have a suite on the WORLD retirement ship sailing around the world.

Two new totally sulfated batteries: One treated to an intensity of frequency modulation that is 1000x the intensity of any consumer product. The second DUT a clone subjected to PRECISELY the same kWh of DC overcharge.

Remove lid and plate modules. Extract plates. Compare. No difference.

From 10 Hz to megahertz no difference. But an ascending degree of physical damage to the grid and plate. Irreconcilable damage. Shedding of material the sulfated plates were legions more durable than the good areas of the plates.

When one interested potential investor showed impatience at witnessing DUT's "Maybe you're not using enough power" I cranked up the incoming voltage. Six cells erupted to a height of over one meter of electrolyte...

"Then again" I retorted "I am".

Prove to me. please using a laboratory verified quantity of energy that pulsation is superior to straight DC overcharging with regard to battery life or recovery. watt second to watt second equality of energy expenditure.

After my business closed and I was in the hospital I was a lonely voice in the wilderness. Barnum & Baily and the bearded lady appeared and the public fell to their knees in vulnerable delight. I was disgusted.

Now a REPUTABLE OEM has printed documents that suggest strongly the negative points of frequency pulsed charging. Lifeline. Read their manual. Read the cautions about the maximum tolerated millivolts Lifeline insists for their battery charging maintenance. Smart people.

Every transformer battery charger is a pulsed charger. Every high frequency charger is a pulsed charger. In my extremely limited capacity now, I add capacitors to low and high frequencies to dampen ripple.

So for the argumentative folks I offer this -- I do not get PAID to argue. If in a mood to froth, take it up with Lifeline.

I need to slather on some DMSO liquid onto my shoulders so I'll quit while I'm behind...

[Smitty77]

Good morning campers:)!!!! Another glorious day to study and learn about batteries.

I did get to Home Depot and as of 3:00PM yesterday, the now dedicated to the coach Kill-A-Watt is doing it's measurements to see what the Samsung Fridge consumes in a 24 hour period. This is more to eliminate the possibility that it's behaving like a few other RV'er's who have PM'd me about theirs never going out of Defrost mode. A control board need to be replaced, and not fault code reported by the Samsung. Most were the RF197 first generation of the 18' Samsung popular in RV's, ours is the RF18 which I've not been able to confirm has had this problem. The 24 hour measurements should give me the info to compare from when I first installed. Then I was seeing over 4 days of monitoring, 14x - 17x AH's usage over a 24 hour period. (Two days were hotter and more humid then the other 2.) So for overnight planning, I use potential 90AH's just to feed the Samsung.

I have the power off at the pole now, going to drop some AH's out of the L16 bank. I've reset the Magnum's Absorb to a 3 1/2 our cycle. I want to see what Absorb reports on Amps during it's cycle. (I got an email from a boating gent, who said he swears the Magnum Absorb and Equalize - even set to the same 14.4V as I have done here - report Amps differently. So, get the bank down a hunk or two, and turn back on shore power and see what a longer Absorb cycle reflects.

And MW, as far as Recovery. I've stated on a few threads that when back off of this road trip, I'll work with Lifeline and follow their recommendations. (I did send a request into their Contact Us 4-5 days ago now, and have heard nothing back. So I'll call Tech Support when I'm back at the Sticks & Bricks.). Reading Recovery section of the Tech Manual, those semi resting voltages I recorded back on page 9 of this thread - are not near the levels they talk about as deep discharge. If they want me to take them to a Pro for Recovery, I will. But I want to take them to a place they recommend. (I'd even drive them the two hours to their warehouse if they want:)!).

And a reminder, I'm using 'time' for Absorb now, vs the 100% SOC to end Absorb that I'd had set. (Again, after talking with Lifeline Tech Support when setting the Magnum up. Theoretically, the Ending Amps on the MidNite Classic 150 and WhzBngJr (4 Amps - is where I have the Ending Amp's set for the 800AH bank.) 'should' have been getting me back to full charge(?). (Once the Controller senses Amps tapering to 4 Amps, they terminate the Absorb run. I set this, due to concern of cooking the batteries too much.)

Drink some more coffee, discharge the battery bank some, turn it back on and monitor the Amps while on a 3 1/2 hour absorb. If it too does not drop below 13Amps - well, we'll wait and see. And by 3:00PM today, I'll know what the Samsung is doing - in case it is sick and eating up AH's more then it should.

Best to all,
Smitty

[westend]

Mex, Could you share your thoughts on the automatic "desulfator" that some battery chargers have?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Here comes the cake analogy

325 F for 45 minutes

195 F for seven hours

2,400 F for 6 minutes

Only one even remotely works. It's a cruel hard world. Electrochemical tolerates few cheaters. High voltage thresholds are just that - yes or no.

Same for duration. Too much time at the correct threshold works NOT. Neither insufficient time nor excessive time is correct. Aren't batteries cranky? I wish I could re-write the rules. Boy there would be a lot of changes.

A way has to be found to accommodate the little monsters. I have to put up with the same nonsense. It's either that or put up with a monster battery budget.

I ran out of bottled gas yesterday. Just as the pot of Barilla was starting to simmer. "Cover the hot water" I yelled. And let it sit on the stove for a half hour.

Mmmmmmm...chewy raw pasta. I ended up nuking small bowls about an hour and a half's worth. One bowl was nuked too long Mmmmmmmm, rubber bands on top, porridge on the bottom.

An eternity at 14.40 will not convince those AGMs to obey and straighten up. Bite the bullet and arrange to kiss their *** using the Lifeline formula. Any AGM exhibiting loss of capacity should see a conditioning exercise. Follow the directions. I've seen too many successful recoveries to be swayed.

I scorch the air blue when I am forced to pound-a-peg do calisthenics.The alternative is to cheat a customer, or cheat myself and that's even less palatable than jumping jacks or deep knee thrusts.

It's a choice between money or a several hour hassle...

Break out the linament

[landyacht318]

NOt so easy to perform the Concorde conditioning procedure on a generator, and while still cycling the batteries.

My Northstar specs a 14.46 @77f absorption. I have been using 14.7v for most of its life.

It's holding 12.3v under a 14.6v amp load with 22 Ah removed from its original when new 90AH capacity, at I type.

Your batteries are out of warranty, and they are likely not dried out from overcharging, most likely sulfated from thre opposite, so I'd not fear a few more tenths of a volt for absorption.

And you need to hold absorption not to "100%" as indicated by your meter, you need to hold absorption voltage until amps taper to 4.

If amperage ever tapers to 4, then perhaps you cn consider them at that point, 100%. and then reset your battery monitor, and still eye the Effing thing with a bucket load of suspicion, scorn, derision and possibly contempt.

Give up on the percentage readings of your battery monitor.Its readings are likely false and are likley responsible for the condition of your lifelines. So ignore it.

read these a few times:

https://marinehowto.com/installing-a-battery-monitor/

https://marinehowto.com/programming-a-battery-monitor/

[MEXICOWANDERER]

• Concorde, like Rolls & Surrette, know exactly what they are doing
• They offer a clear and concise protocol for recovery of haunted batteries
• My advice is to paint-by-the-numbers on this problem
• Do the recovery step-by-step and don't try and outguess the people who make this battery
• I have seen this problem lots of times and a recovery exercise worked near miracles
• AGM batteries act weird when they become sulfated
• This is why Concorde went through the time and trouble to issue clear and concise recovery instructions