Are the new WFCO's as bad as the old ones?

[Fisherguy]

Our old trailer (2007 Komfort) had a WFCO 8955 converter in it, I could NOT ever get it to go into bulk mode, not even when I moved it within a few feet of the batteries, tried everything. I did a thread on it. (I ended up putting a PD9280 in a new location closer to the batteries.) Any converter thread got pretty heated back then as I'm sure some of you will remember! 😉

We just bought a 2019 ORV Timber Ridge which unfortunately also came with an WFCO, this time a 8955 Lis. This is the one with a lead/lithium switch.
This trailer came with 3 - 100Ah LIthiums, has 600 watts of solar panels uptop and has a 12v Norcold fridge. (I might add another 200 watt panel and additional 100Ah Lithium if I need to?)

So are these new WFCO still as bad as the old ones?
If they're better I could replace the charger with a 8975 if it fits? (I'd have to upgrade the cables to the batteries I know)
Either way I'll be wanting to upgrade the charger for one as big as possible that will run from my Honda 2000 genny.

I'm hoping to shorten the learning curve re. lithium charging, this is all new to me.
Thx
Will

[waexplorer]

Fisherguy wrote:

waexplorer wrote:

Ok Fisherguy, from an earlier post I saw you have volt/amp guage. If you can run your batteries down 30-50% SOC then you can monitor recharge amps and volts. IF your charger is charging at 14.4-14.6 volts with 50-60 amps, more than likely that's a lithium profile. IF your readings are more like 13.6-13.8 with lower amps, that's a FLA curve. Some Flooded curves will start over 14 volts and drop after an hour or so. Lithium will hold over 14 volts for as long as it takes to recover SOC. Depending on how many amp hours it needs to put back in the batteries. Most lithium battery makers use prismatic cells @3.2 volts. 3.2x4=12.8 volts. MAX charge per cell is 3.65 and 3.65x4=14.6. Lithium charge curves stay flat for most of the charge cycly then ramp up voltage sharply at the end. This is not charging voltage, this is state of charge voltage. The BMS is should be a 50 or 100 amp which is what charge/discharge current you can run through it. I wouldn't replace anything until you have an idea of your WFCO charge curves/amps etc. Run through a few charge/discharge cycles and see if you actually need more than what's there. And you can also do this using the Honda generator as well. Also as the batteries get closer to 100% SOC the charging amps will drop. Aso, the batteries BMS will stop the charge cycle when the batteries are full and cell balancing will begin. Lithium battery cells don't like too much variation between cells.

Thanks.
Plugged it in with batteries at 46%, got 27.5 amps at 13.6 volts.

I've since heard back from WFCO who told me the previous owner didn't install the 12V circuit board that has the 'lithium switch' on it so I won't get 14.6V. They offered to sell me the DC board.

I suppose now it's up to you to decide your best solution. If you want a converter go with Progressive Dynamics. If you want charger/converter/inverter go with Victron. The choice is yours. At this point with your current charger your lithiums are charging to about 80% with non lithium charger. Of course MY opinions are worth what you paid for them. 😉

[Grit_dog]

My bad. Didn’t pay attention to your location when you said winter. Was assuming you couldn’t charge batteries yet due to low temperatures.
Hopefully you can just swap boards like you were saying.

[Fisherguy]

waexplorer wrote:

Ok Fisherguy, from an earlier post I saw you have volt/amp guage. If you can run your batteries down 30-50% SOC then you can monitor recharge amps and volts. IF your charger is charging at 14.4-14.6 volts with 50-60 amps, more than likely that's a lithium profile. IF your readings are more like 13.6-13.8 with lower amps, that's a FLA curve. Some Flooded curves will start over 14 volts and drop after an hour or so. Lithium will hold over 14 volts for as long as it takes to recover SOC. Depending on how many amp hours it needs to put back in the batteries. Most lithium battery makers use prismatic cells @3.2 volts. 3.2x4=12.8 volts. MAX charge per cell is 3.65 and 3.65x4=14.6. Lithium charge curves stay flat for most of the charge cycly then ramp up voltage sharply at the end. This is not charging voltage, this is state of charge voltage. The BMS is should be a 50 or 100 amp which is what charge/discharge current you can run through it. I wouldn't replace anything until you have an idea of your WFCO charge curves/amps etc. Run through a few charge/discharge cycles and see if you actually need more than what's there. And you can also do this using the Honda generator as well. Also as the batteries get closer to 100% SOC the charging amps will drop. Aso, the batteries BMS will stop the charge cycle when the batteries are full and cell balancing will begin. Lithium battery cells don't like too much variation between cells.

Thanks.
Plugged it in with batteries at 46%, got 27.5 amps at 13.6 volts.

I've since heard back from WFCO who told me the previous owner didn't install the 12V circuit board that has the 'lithium switch' on it so I won't get 14.6V. They offered to sell me the DC board.

[Grit_dog]

waexplorer wrote:

Fisherguy wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Boon Docker wrote:
..

Apologies, I quoted you but wasn’t questioning your response.
It was in reference to the OP who is planning to idk, stack converters.
And furthermore he doesn’t even know if his current converter is doing the job or not.

Stack converters?
We've had this trailer a whole 2 weeks and it's the middle of winter here so excuse me if I don't have any 'real world' experience with it yet and am looking for advice!
I said I'd probly leave the WFCO in place as a back up on it's own breaker and add another charger up closer to the batteries.
Is that OK with you?

Ok Fisherguy, from an earlier post I saw you have volt/amp guage. If you can run your batteries down 30-50% SOC then you can monitor recharge amps and volts. IF your charger is charging at 14.4-14.6 volts with 50-60 amps, more than likely that's a lithium profile. IF your readings are more like 13.6-13.8 with lower amps, that's a FLA curve. Some Flooded curves will start over 14 volts and drop after an hour or so. Lithium will hold over 14 volts for as long as it takes to recover SOC. Depending on how many amp hours it needs to put back in the batteries. Most lithium battery makers use prismatic cells @3.2 volts. 3.2x4=12.8 volts. MAX charge per cell is 3.65 and 3.65x4=14.6. Lithium charge curves stay flat for most of the charge cycly then ramp up voltage sharply at the end. This is not charging voltage, this is state of charge voltage. The BMS is should be a 50 or 100 amp which is what charge/discharge current you can run through it. I wouldn't replace anything until you have an idea of your WFCO charge curves/amps etc. Run through a few charge/discharge cycles and see if you actually need more than what's there. And you can also do this using the Honda generator as well. Also as the batteries get closer to 100% SOC the charging amps will drop. Aso, the batteries BMS will stop the charge cycle when the batteries are full and cell balancing will begin. Lithium battery cells don't like too much variation between cells.

Good “advice”. Hopefully the OP will save it for spring time when belie LFP batteries thaw out and he’s ready to actually run the camper and not just hypothesize about potential non issues while getting triggered about the help.

[waexplorer]

theoldwizard1 wrote:
Buy a GOOD quality inverter/charger/automatic transfer switch. Remove the converter and wire the DC fuse panel directly to the house battery bank (using a large fuse close the the battery bank).

Wire the shore power cable directly to the inlet of the inverter. Wire the outlet of the inverter to your AC breaker panel.

DONE !

Theoldwizardone, Yes that is exactly my plan. All in one unit, the Victron Multiplus and Renogy have that capability. Victron has the advatage because all their stuff can be monitored both locally and globally. My plan is Victron Multiplus inverter charger, cerbo gx, smart shunt. Renogy doesn't have a "smart" shunt yet and their inverter charger doesn't connect to their Renogy one M1. Maybe in the future. And yes, the Victron Multiplus charge current is programmable.

[waexplorer]

Fisherguy wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Boon Docker wrote:
..

Apologies, I quoted you but wasn’t questioning your response.
It was in reference to the OP who is planning to idk, stack converters.
And furthermore he doesn’t even know if his current converter is doing the job or not.

Stack converters?
We've had this trailer a whole 2 weeks and it's the middle of winter here so excuse me if I don't have any 'real world' experience with it yet and am looking for advice!
I said I'd probly leave the WFCO in place as a back up on it's own breaker and add another charger up closer to the batteries.
Is that OK with you?

Ok Fisherguy, from an earlier post I saw you have volt/amp guage. If you can run your batteries down 30-50% SOC then you can monitor recharge amps and volts. IF your charger is charging at 14.4-14.6 volts with 50-60 amps, more than likely that's a lithium profile. IF your readings are more like 13.6-13.8 with lower amps, that's a FLA curve. Some Flooded curves will start over 14 volts and drop after an hour or so. Lithium will hold over 14 volts for as long as it takes to recover SOC. Depending on how many amp hours it needs to put back in the batteries. Most lithium battery makers use prismatic cells @3.2 volts. 3.2x4=12.8 volts. MAX charge per cell is 3.65 and 3.65x4=14.6. Lithium charge curves stay flat for most of the charge cycly then ramp up voltage sharply at the end. This is not charging voltage, this is state of charge voltage. The BMS is should be a 50 or 100 amp which is what charge/discharge current you can run through it. I wouldn't replace anything until you have an idea of your WFCO charge curves/amps etc. Run through a few charge/discharge cycles and see if you actually need more than what's there. And you can also do this using the Honda generator as well. Also as the batteries get closer to 100% SOC the charging amps will drop. Aso, the batteries BMS will stop the charge cycle when the batteries are full and cell balancing will begin. Lithium battery cells don't like too much variation between cells.

[Fisherguy]

theoldwizard1 wrote:
Buy a GOOD quality inverter/charger/automatic transfer switch. Remove the converter and wire the DC fuse panel directly to the house battery bank (using a large fuse close the the battery bank).

Wire the shore power cable directly to the inlet of the inverter. Wire the outlet of the inverter to your AC breaker panel.

DONE !

Ya I'm looking into them. We only have a 600 watt inverter in our old trailer for TV sat dish etc and it's worked well. It seems the "all in ones" have 2000 watts as a minimum on the inverter side and only have about 1 amp no-load draw so that's not too bad.
Can you adjust the charging rate of the Victrons? Last thing I'd want is to put one in that was more than our Honda 2000 genny can power.

[Bobbo]

theoldwizard1 wrote:
Buy a GOOD quality inverter/charger/automatic transfer switch. Remove the converter and wire the DC fuse panel directly to the house battery bank (using a large fuse close the the battery bank).

Wire the shore power cable directly to the inlet of the inverter. Wire the outlet of the inverter to your AC breaker panel.

DONE !

Are you suggesting not having a circuit breaker between the pedestal and the inverter other than the one on the pedestal, itself?

[Fisherguy]

Grit dog wrote:

Boon Docker wrote:
..

Apologies, I quoted you but wasn’t questioning your response.
It was in reference to the OP who is planning to idk, stack converters.
And furthermore he doesn’t even know if his current converter is doing the job or not.

Stack converters?
We've had this trailer a whole 2 weeks and it's the middle of winter here so excuse me if I don't have any 'real world' experience with it yet and am looking for advice!
I said I'd probly leave the WFCO in place as a back up on it's own breaker and add another charger up closer to the batteries.
Is that OK with you?

[Boon_Docker]

No harm, no foul. 🙂

[Grit_dog]

Boon Docker wrote:
..

Apologies, I quoted you but wasn’t questioning your response.
It was in reference to the OP who is planning to idk, stack converters.
And furthermore he doesn’t even know if his current converter is doing the job or not.

[Boon_Docker]

..

[Boon_Docker]

Grit dog wrote:

Boon Docker wrote:
Good to hear, saves you some cash.
Thanks for the update.

??
Not if he’s just double stacking a bigger better converter. Literally no point in keepin the original converter if piggy backing another converter.
Now a low buck charger (which don’t really exist for a good higer amp LFP charger) could save a buck and be a decent stop gap. But why?
One and done it replace the WFCo with a PD and walk away. Also less work and hassle than adding additional circuits.

Or did I misread something ?

The reply was that his old charger is LI compatible which would have saved him some cash.

[theoldwizard1]

Buy a GOOD quality inverter/charger/automatic transfer switch. Remove the converter and wire the DC fuse panel directly to the house battery bank (using a large fuse close the the battery bank).

Wire the shore power cable directly to the inlet of the inverter. Wire the outlet of the inverter to your AC breaker panel.

DONE !

[Grit_dog]

Boon Docker wrote:
Good to hear, saves you some cash.
Thanks for the update.

??
Not if he’s just double stacking a bigger better converter. Literally no point in keepin the original converter if piggy backing another converter.
Now a low buck charger (which don’t really exist for a good higer amp LFP charger) could save a buck and be a decent stop gap. But why?
One and done it replace the WFCo with a PD and walk away. Also less work and hassle than adding additional circuits.

Or did I misread something ?