Batteries/solar not holding up, troubleshooting help please

[twvette]

I have no luck getting batteries to hold up it seems. Had a couple different RV's and different setups too (wet cell, lifeline golf cart, gel deep cycle batteries)and none have ever held up well.

Anyways, here is what I have now:
- Onan 5500 gen
- Iota DLS-45 converter
- Three Optima Bluetop D31M (less than a year old)
- Large solar panel (or maybe it is even two combined together?)
- Shell Solar RV 20 solar controller /monitor
- Only camp in AZ so almost always get great solar

Worked great in beginning but seem to be on downward spiral. I now can't get through even a mildly cold night (mid 40's) of heater use only without them dying. I have had to run the generator much more even with the solar system to get/keep them fairly charged whereas before the solar panel would generally give me full recovery from typical day and night use.

Here are some observations:
- I previously got 13.4 volts or higher when running the generator but now only see 13.0, and settles at about 12.7v a little while after shutting off generator
- When shutting off generator I never get much more than an "OK" status on my monitor whereas as before I would typically be at "GOOD" or a few LEDs above at least for a while
- Connected an automotive style battery charger after charging with generator for a while and it also claimed the batteries were fully charged.

Here are some questions/concerns:
- Is the solar system overcharging my batteries slowly killing them?
- I do not have the Iota IQ4 smart charge option as far as I can tell, perhaps this will help? Seems like a long shot as had this in previous RV and did not see any real improvement but maybe would prevent Onan 5500 from improperly charging gel batteries this time around?
- Generator/Iota DLS-45 issue in general? All my RV's have had this same setup
- Is the Shell Solar RV 20 junk or good? I did not purchase or install this system.
- Can anyone tell from pics below which solar panels I might have? I have no clue on make/model/output and no markings on them even underneath!
- Maybe I am leaking back power through the solar panels at night?
- Would putting an ammeter inline help figure this out? Maybe a Doc Wattson http://www.rc-electronics-usa.com/ammeters/rv-battery-monitor.html
- How to test my batteries to see if they are still good? Maybe only one battery is bad?







Thanks for any help!

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Tri-Metric is a popular brand. There are lots of folks here that will lend advice and help you get it set up.

There is nothing quite like having the ability of seeing a simple "starts at zero then keep tabs on things"

-274 "Agghh I used too much!"

Or

-57 "I need to let it charge some more"

"0 CHARGED! The meter tells me how full the batteries are!"

[HTElectrical]

What is a decent meter that you recommend?

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
The OP is wandering in the dark. Without instrumentation simply recommending more is like telling a pilot flying at night in the fog "Don't hit the ground! Pull back on the yoke! More! More!"

Ooooops! A loop.

Blind stabbing at this issue is sorta, well, you know.............dumb.

The OP has to see this problem for himself and an amp hour meter is # 1 on the list
Not batteries. Not bigger panels. Not a bigger charger
They come next AS NEEDED WHEN NEEDED

[NinerBikes]

To really get your batteries restored, do a search on Google on "how to equalize charge a battery" by mexico wanderer.

You are not out of the woods yet, need a manual charger about 8 to 10 amps capable of 16.0V output, and a hydrometer to measure Specific Gravity of each cell.

Do a search on here by Mexicowanderer for the procedure.

[twvette]

No time to get the Trimetric before my trip but things are looking better. Today's observations ...

- RV20 controller showed 13.0v after sitting for weeks in storage with just solar and nothing on during that time. It was early evening, no clouds all day, and cool temps in 60's so should have been as good as it gets.
- I got a copy of the RV20 user manual and it recommends doing a "Battery Fuse Removal Test". Pulled this fuse and it went from 13.0v to 13.3v. This is good sign controller is ok and connected to battery properly.
- Started generator and got 13.6v. This is better than got last trip. Checked with DMM directly at battery bank and got 13.45v
- Plugged in my new IQ4 module to the Iota DLS and fired generator again and now getting 14.7v on RV20 ..... YES!!!! .... DMM at battery shows 14.54
- Let the generator run and after about two hours noticed it dropped down to 14.1v .... Seems perfect, was in bulk charged and now switched to absorption. Will let it charge for several more hours until see it go down into low 13v's to know it switched to float.

It is dropping into the 30's tonight so will see how the batteries now do as heater will run a lot tonight.

Will tweak RV20 for a little higher solar voltage tomorrow.

If anyone wants the Shell Solar RV20 user manual pm me email address and I can send.

[BFL13]

smkettner wrote:
Interesting with just the charging light and no charged light.
I assume this means a single stage single voltage controller that just holds 13.6 to 13.8 volts max all day. Again chronically undercharging the Optima.

Consider a new controller but if spending money you may as well get new panels up there with 200+ watts.

The ASC I had was a "Shunt" type that was on/off. It had an adjustable high set point. Until the batt voltage reached the set-point, the charging light stayed on. After that the charging light went on and off, being on only when the controller gave a shot of current to maintain the voltage.

As the batts got closer to full, the times off got longer between the times of the on "pulses" which got shorter. The controller has no way to know the batts are "charged" as such.

I call that profile "two stage" where it does Bulk until it gets to the high set point, then holds there for Absorption.

That "Shunt" type method of doing the Absorption Stage is now more often seen as a "Series" method with tapering amps instead of a varying time on off. They both work, but some Series types also have a settable Float voltage or a built in three-stage profile that includes a drop to a lower Float voltage after a timed Absorption.

The OP's controller will be fine if it has the adjustable voltage. He can set it to 14.8 for when camping and to 13.x for when not camping. While camping it can stay at 14.8 till dark, when the voltage drops anyway. Dark = Float 🙂

He has to mount it so he can turn it around at will to change the voltage at the back.

[time2roll]

Interesting with just the charging light and no charged light.
I assume this means a single stage single voltage controller that just holds 13.6 to 13.8 volts max all day. Again chronically undercharging the Optima.

Consider a new controller but if spending money you may as well get new panels up there with 200+ watts.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The OP is wandering in the dark. Without instrumentation simply recommending more is like telling a pilot flying at night in the fog "Don't hit the ground! Pull back on the yoke! More! More!"

Ooooops! A loop.

Blind stabbing at this issue is sorta, well, you know.............dumb.

The OP has to see this problem for himself and an amp hour meter is # 1 on the list
Not batteries. Not bigger panels. Not a bigger charger
They come next AS NEEDED WHEN NEEDED

[BFL13]

I had an ASC controller. The "pot on the back" mentioned is likely on the back of the controller like mine had, not the panels. (which are nailed down anyway, so how could you get at it? ) The pot is to adjust the controller's "high voltage set point" which is the voltage it gets the batteries to before it starts controlling so that the voltage can't get any higher.

[MrWizard]

Optima is a great battery for using in a Jet Ski or a speed boat bouncing on the waves

by group size they are way low on total amp hr capacity
and a BAD choice for dry camping deep cycle operation

#1 .. is an expensive bank of heavy duty 2 volt cells..not a good choice for RV use {weight problem}

#2 .. is heavy duty deep cycle AGM batteries

#3 .. is flooded cell golf cart batteries batteries

then solar ARRAY size... when used for extended camping, it needs to replace at 90% of daily use, then you can go a couple of days of no generator
then do a long run for recharge

with a small battery bank and small size solar
you MUST run generator several hours or More per day in the morning
get batteries up to where the solar can top it off,

you have been seriously under charging the batteries
every day using more power, than you replace
you need to balance your use, charge more or use less

[twvette]

I finally stumbled on some info for the Shell RV20 controller, kind of. It looks like they were made for Shell by Specialty Concepts Inc. and pic shows it is extremely similar to their Mark 15 controller


Mine:

They had/have a Mark 20 and a Mark 22. Here is manual fro 15/20:
Mark15/20

A little strange mine does not have the "Charged" LED so hopefully just a cost savings on the LED and not that it does not recognize when full and change its logic. Mine automatically toggles between array amps and voltage so no switch. I cant seem to find a pic of the 20 or 22 so maybe one of these is a more direct match.

Some of the info I found suggests there might be a pot on the back of my panel to adjust the solar output voltage so will look for that and hopefully bump it up to about 14.4 volts.

Will see if Specialty Concepts can provide a manual for the Shell RV20 for further clarification.

[time2roll]

At some point you need to get the specs on the solar controller or sit and watch the profile as it charges. It may well only give 13.5 volts to the battery when it should go to ~14.5 before dropping to float. Check the solar profile after the IQ controller gives a 24 hour charge.

[NinerBikes]

The Group 31 is one of the absolute worst batteries out there for providing electricity for camping in a deep cycle battery, even worse in an Optima.

Read up... problematic beyond belief.

Group 31 batteries and recharging woes.

With your level of discharging abuse, get the GC-2 batteries, they'll last a lot longer with your usage and charging habits.

The other huge problem is that your Optima D31M's are Dual Purpose batteries, not true Deep Cycle batteries... get rid of them.

Optima D31M specifications.

[twvette]

Thanks everyone!

I think am armed with enough info to start figuring this out now. The HandyBob blog really helped too. If I can get the 14.4 volts or so out of my DLS converter that might be the answer to the bulk of my long history of battery problems with slow death (rapid in reality). Will get a Trimetric 2030RV on order (or maybe an Xantrex LinkPro?) so I can "see" what is going on. Will check wiring and be more conservative with inverter usage and turn off at night. Already had a non powered LPG heater on list for other reasons so will bump that up the priority list. More solar to better match my useage/battery bank.

[NinerBikes]

OP needs:

More voltage while charging

More Amps while charging

More generator time with the above 2 items.

Ger rid of the Optima's for weekend camping.

If you can get a decent charge in them daily, the least problematic to recharge batteries are a pair of 225 amp 6V GC-2 Golf Cart batteries, and wire connection to hook them in series to get you 12V out of the pair.

Costco, Sams Club GC-2s and if you want the full time good stuff for day in and day out usage, Trojan T-105s.

From there, you'll need 200-300 watts of solar panels, and a 30 amp charge controller, that has adjustable bulk charge voltage that you can set at around 14.8 to 15.0V to get your batteries topped of daily while camping.

You can and should adjust the voltage on the charge controller while in storage back to about 13.4 to 13.6V for float voltage. Reset again up to 14.8 to 15.0V when camping.

[2oldman]

full_mosey wrote:
The OP has three(3) 75 AH batteries, or 225AHs, not 150AH.

Yes, and effectively around 110ah until batteries should be getting charged.