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Feedback on 12V water heater element as solar diversion load

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
My solar charge controller has a diversion load feature where excess current can be diverted to a load once batteries are full. The manual discusses using a water heater element and this sounds like a clever way to do something with excess solar harvest that would otherwise be wasted. I recognize that this is not a primary method for heating the water, just a way to doing something rather than nothing with excess solar harvest. Does anyone do this and have feedback? I found an old thread posted by "msiminoff" with a cool project doing this with a custom element.
https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/25824208/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1
Otherwise, there are existing 12V heating elements that can do this.
https://windandsolar.com/9-3-8-inch-dual-power-submersible-water-heating-element/
Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen
86 REPLIES 86

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
Bummer news on the 24V 1000 watt element. I went to test fit it in the hot water tank and it cannot be fully inserted due to obstruction. The exhaust flue inside the tank interferes. So major bummer ๐Ÿ˜ž

I went ahead with the bench testing to explore the concept. Element was directly connected to 12V battery system to take measurements. I used the wiring I have put in place for diversion load which is about 30' of 8 gauge wire terminating at the outside access of the water heater with an SAE connector. The element is wired up with an SAE connector so I can plug it in at the outside access of the water heater.

Overcast day so solar wasn't contributing much. I think it was about 3 amps during testing.
Measured 10.7 V at the heating element. Battery voltage was about 12.8V and gradually dropping as load pulled it down.
Measured 23 amps with clamp meter at the element
Measured 0.7 ohm resistance for the element

It was heating up, I sure wish I could take it further and use it in the tank. When prepping the connections, I went ahead and slid some of that high temp heat shrink on the wiring in case the original heat shrink cooked off like during the previous test with the 12V 300 watt element. I didn't activate the heat shrink, I was waiting to see what would happen first. It seems like the wire heated up enough to activate it on its own and on one lead it split. I only had things running for 10 minutes or so. I don't know if it would have cooked the original heat shrink or not. The original stuff looks to be in great shape though after the 10 minutes.

Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
Test is up and running. I disconnected one of the panels so I'm back to 280 watts total solar array capacity. Using the older of my 12V 300 watt elements. Things seem to be working as expected - battery voltage rose until reaching the absorption setpoint and then diversion started occurring while battery voltage remained constant. I took voltage readings on the diversion load and they are unexpectedly low. When battery voltage is 14.5V, the diversion load voltage is 9.2V with about 9 amps being dumped into heating element. It started the day at lower voltage than this and has settled around this value.

SCC is now in float mode (battery at 13.6V) and the diversion load voltage and current remains about the same. I measured voltage at the SCC terminals and at an Anderson quick-connect close to the SCC and both read 9.2V. I measured at the heating element and it was in the 7V range - voltage drop from 8 gauge wire running the entire length of 27-foot TT? Is this what anyone else expected? I thought I'd be seeing battery voltage or even panel voltage. Current at the element measured via clamp multimeter concurs with laptop SCC monitoring software. The diversion load voltage measurements at the SCC also agree with the array/load voltage value reported by laptop SCC software.

Temperature gun said that the wire leads leading into the heating element are 330F. These are the now-exposed wires that cooked off the heat shrink during initial day-long test run where I suspect I was simply putting too much wattage into the 300 watt element.

Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
My multimeter is probably the cheapest one you could find, I don't remember where I got but probably Harbor Freight or a department store. It read 1.5 ohms for both the old and new 12V 300 watt element.
My clamp multimeter is also a budget model off Amazon. It measured 0.9 ohm on old 12V 300 watt element and 0.6 ohm on new 12V 300 watt element.
Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
pianotuna wrote:
To do the calculation one needs to know the voltage under load.

I'll do a run soon and measure, but the manual suggests using 15V for a 12V nominal system. It relates it to maximum battery voltage vs array voltage. But I agree, let's see the measured data vs what the manual suggests.
Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
To do the calculation one needs to know the voltage under load.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

StirCrazy
Moderator
Moderator
ewarnerusa wrote:
StirCrazy wrote:
ewarnerusa wrote:
Question: what would happen if it was a 500 watt element for 24V DC?
500 watt 24V DC cartridge heater 1/2 inch NPT


If that fits it would still be worth it. wouldn't blow it up at any point because of too much voltage. If they are all the same thread even a bit bigger like the 800 or 1000 watt one might be worth a try.


I need to take readings still to confirm, but my hunch is that the element receives full panel wattage at the full potential array voltage (18V?) when it is getting diversion current. Does that change the math?


ya it's not as easy as going if you halve the voltage, you 1/4 the power from the rated input. so if it gets 18V you would end up around 1/2 the power rating (just guessing off the top of my head after just waking up and getting ready for a night shift ๐Ÿ˜‰ )
2014 F350 6.7 Platinum
2016 Cougar 330RBK
1991 Slumberqueen WS100

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
Pianotuna and Stircrazy, you're giving me hope again! After reading stevenal and your input, as well as rereading the Morningstar manual again for sizing the diversion load, I think a 24V 1000 watt element will work.
The manual goes over the power rating adjustment of ratio of the voltages squared. It also points out that the adjusted lower power also lowers the current it can accept at those voltages and that elements for much higher voltages like 120V will typically require several in parallel in order to accept all of the diverted current. At least that is how I'm reading it, they don't explain it but show the de-rated current in a table and make some statements using those currents when discussing the number of elements needed for a scenario. With a 24V 1000 watt element, I think the math works out OK with just one element. It suggests using 15V as the max battery voltage to use in a 12V nominal system for adjusting power ratings.
https://www.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/technical-doc-diversion-manual-en.pdf
Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
If the voltage goes up the wattage increases. Your meter is your friend.

Measure voltage open circuit.

Then place a load on the diversion terminal and measure the voltage.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
StirCrazy wrote:
ewarnerusa wrote:
Question: what would happen if it was a 500 watt element for 24V DC?
500 watt 24V DC cartridge heater 1/2 inch NPT


If that fits it would still be worth it. wouldn't blow it up at any point because of too much voltage. If they are all the same thread even a bit bigger like the 800 or 1000 watt one might be worth a try.


I need to take readings still to confirm, but my hunch is that the element receives full panel wattage at the full potential array voltage (18V?) when it is getting diversion current. Does that change the math?
Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen

StirCrazy
Moderator
Moderator
ewarnerusa wrote:
Question: what would happen if it was a 500 watt element for 24V DC?
500 watt 24V DC cartridge heater 1/2 inch NPT


If that fits it would still be worth it. wouldn't blow it up at any point because of too much voltage. If they are all the same thread even a bit bigger like the 800 or 1000 watt one might be worth a try.
2014 F350 6.7 Platinum
2016 Cougar 330RBK
1991 Slumberqueen WS100

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
ewarnerusa wrote:
Question: what would happen if it was a 500 watt element for 24V DC?
500 watt 24V DC cartridge heater 1/2 inch NPT


The output will drop by the square of the voltage.

24 x 24 = 576

12 x 12 = 144

So with a 24 volt element running at 12 volts the wattage would be 1/4 of 500 watts, i.e. 125 watts.

If you could find a 24 volt element that was 2000 watts @ 24 volts and run it at 12 volts then the output would be 500 watts.

I expect you would find you need the element called "unobtainium" to get the results you are hoping for.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

stevenal
Nomad II
Nomad II
Half the voltage into the same resistance yields half the current.Half times half is a quarter. You'd achieve 125 w.
'18 Bigfoot 1500 Torklifts and Fastguns
'17 F350 Powerstroke Supercab SRW LB 4X4

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
Question: what would happen if it was a 500 watt element for 24V DC?
500 watt 24V DC cartridge heater 1/2 inch NPT
Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen

ewarnerusa
Nomad
Nomad
New element arrived. Measured 0.6 ohms. The heat shrink is not white but gray is shown in the picture, but it feels the same. I don't think I'll put it to use, it feels like running a 300 watt rated element when I have nearly 500 watts to give when batteries are full is just not adding up to success. Sourcing a 500 watt 12V element has been a dead end. I can find NPS threaded ones but not the right 1 1/4" for swapping out the OEM 120V AC element. And this 300 watt one is the highest wattage 12V cartridge heater that I can find with 1/2" NPT for using in the drain plug.
Aspen Trail 2710BH | 470 watts of solar | 2x 6V GC batteries | 100% LED lighting | 1500W PSW inverter | MicroAir on air con | Yamaha 2400 gen