Generator/ Reverse Polarity Question

[TheHound]

Hey folks,

My knowledge on these matters is marginal at best so I am hoping someone here might have some suggestions regarding this issue I encountered today.

I went to test my shiny new Surge Guard 34930 with my 3200 watt inverter genny (using a Surge Guard bonding plug) but I am getting a reverse polarity message and it will not pass power through.

To check further, I bought a 30m to 15f adapter and then plugged in my tester. With the bonding plug inserted it came back with HOT/NEU REV based on the little legend thingy.

When I remove the bonding plug, I get just the middle light (open ground) which I understand is normal with inverter generators.

Very puzzled as all my research said the bonding plug corrects this issue and allows for the use of a SP. Any thoughts? 🙂 Thanks!

[wnjj]

Undoubtedly the CSA certification is a process that they “pass”. It doesn’t necessarily mean every unit going out the door is guaranteed perfect. It does make me wonder what process, if any, leads to random connections of the main conductors.

[road-runner]

I noticed that this generator is claimed to be CSA certified. My first thought was that CSA must not have very good standards (this IS an electrical safety issue). I couldn't find the generator in the CSA product directory, so I guess I have to say that either CSA doesn't have very good standards, OR the CSA certification claim is false.

[wnjj]

Glad to hear and happy to help. Thanks for posting all of the follow up. This will be yet another thread we can reference when the inevitable next guy runs into the same issue. 😉

[TheHound]

road-runner wrote:
I've discovered the secret factory wiring instructions for these generators:
"Hook up the wires any way you want to get power between the hot and neutral connections on every power outlet. If there are any wire ends left over, just connect them anywhere that looks good"

Seriously, this is not a difficult detective process. With the bonding plug in the 20A duplex outlet, the other half of the outlet should show full voltage between hot and ground. Next step, check for voltage between hot and ground on the twistlock outlet (without adapter). If ok, proceed to next step, if not ok, the ground connection between the two outlets is bad. Next, test for voltage between hot on either outlet to chassis ground. If ok, proceed to next step. If not ok, the outlet grounds are not connected to chassis ground. Next, using the adapter in the twistlock outlet, check for voltage between hot and ground. If it's there, you're good to go. If it's not there, the ground connection in the adapter is bad.

For myself, I'd rather do this using the ohmmeter with the generator not running, but the voltage check should work just as well. Just don't be fooled by a partial voltage reading, all of them need to be the full voltage that's initially read from the 20A outlet.

Haha.. I like your theory about the wiring 😄

And thanks for the follow up. I just re-tested both resistance and voltage and I think everyone is right with the world. Last go, I did not seat the probes properly while fumbling with the outlet covers and trying to see the multimeter. Good point about the twistlock because once I used that, it extended the receptacle past the cover and it was easier to seat the probes.

I love a happy ending lol

[TheHound]

wnjj wrote:

Use ohms with the generator off and bonding plug out to see if the ground pins are connected between the receptacles and the ground bolt on the right.

Since your EMS used to say hot/neutral swapped when bonded, I suspect it’ll be fine now if all you did was swap white & black. The only way it knows about a reversal is if the ground is connected on both the bonded and plugged in receptacles. Now if a striped wire was loose and now off, that’s another matter.

You nailed it! I was able to do the ohm check and all ground connections read zero (and beeped). Genny was off and bonding plug out.

I fired it up and without the plug, no voltage between hot and ground. Inserted plug and got 122 at the 20 amp hot and neutral and hot and ground. Likewise for the 30 amp. 🙂 I think this last part was user error as I did not seat the probes properly.

I do believe we are good to go! Thanks again for all your time and help with this. Cheers!

[road-runner]

I've discovered the secret factory wiring instructions for these generators:
"Hook up the wires any way you want to get power between the hot and neutral connections on every power outlet. If there are any wire ends left over, just connect them anywhere that looks good"

Seriously, this is not a difficult detective process. With the bonding plug in the 20A duplex outlet, the other half of the outlet should show full voltage between hot and ground. Next step, check for voltage between hot and ground on the twistlock outlet (without adapter). If ok, proceed to next step, if not ok, the ground connection between the two outlets is bad. Next, test for voltage between hot on either outlet to chassis ground. If ok, proceed to next step. If not ok, the outlet grounds are not connected to chassis ground. Next, using the adapter in the twistlock outlet, check for voltage between hot and ground. If it's there, you're good to go. If it's not there, the ground connection in the adapter is bad.

For myself, I'd rather do this using the ohmmeter with the generator not running, but the voltage check should work just as well. Just don't be fooled by a partial voltage reading, all of them need to be the full voltage that's initially read from the 20A outlet.

[TheHound]

Bobbo wrote:
If your EMS is not saying "open ground" then it is detecting 120v between hot and ground. Since it is detecting 120v between hot and ground, your outlets should all have 120v between hot and ground. If they do not, you have a deeper problem. Somewhere between your outlets and the EMS, the ground wire is broken.

Thanks for the reply. All this testing has become a blur so maybe this part is on me. Now that it is the weekend I can take more time and recheck everything. Cheers!

[Bobbo]

If your EMS is not saying "open ground" then it is detecting 120v between hot and ground. Since it is detecting 120v between hot and ground, your outlets should all have 120v between hot and ground. If they do not, you have a deeper problem. Somewhere between your outlets and the EMS, the ground wire is broken.

[wnjj]

TheHound wrote:

wnjj wrote:

TheHound wrote:

wnjj wrote:
Looks great. Hopefully there's enough slack to do that.

Your sir are a ***bleeping*** genius lol!
SUCCESS!

This has been quite the learning process and I thank everyone that has piped in so far 🙂 But one more question, sorry.

I noticed now I am getting voltage readings on all receptacles ONLY between hot and neutral. I thought I should also see it between hot and ground. :? Which is correct? Cheers! -Frank

Excellent! Good work getting in there and getting your fingers dirty.

The ground on your generator is only connected between the ground pins of the receptacles, the ground lug and possibly any metal in the chassis. Until you plug your bonding plug it, there will be no potential between it and anything else. After bonding it you should see 120V between ground and hot on all receptacles.

Thanks wnjj, hopefully not...but I am pretty sure I checked voltage with the bonding plug inserted and still saw one reading on all 3 receptacles (hot & neutral). At work now but will double check to be sure when I get home. If that is indeed the case, do I need to do something with the striped yellow/green wire? Cheers!

If the striped wire is connected to the ground pins on both receptacles and you bond one spot, those ground pins should all be shorted to the neutrals. Then it’s not possible to have power between hot and neutral without power between hot and ground. So just make sure the green and yellow wire is connected between them. Use ohms with the generator off and bonding plug out to see if the ground pins are connected between the receptacles and the ground bolt on the right.
Since your EMS used to say hot/neutral swapped when bonded, I suspect it’ll be fine now if all you did was swap white & black. The only way it knows about a reversal is if the ground is connected on both the bonded and plugged in receptacles. Now if a striped wire was loose and now off, that’s another matter.

[TheHound]

wnjj wrote:

TheHound wrote:

wnjj wrote:
Looks great. Hopefully there's enough slack to do that.

Your sir are a ***bleeping*** genius lol!
SUCCESS!

This has been quite the learning process and I thank everyone that has piped in so far 🙂 But one more question, sorry.

I noticed now I am getting voltage readings on all receptacles ONLY between hot and neutral. I thought I should also see it between hot and ground. :? Which is correct? Cheers! -Frank

Excellent! Good work getting in there and getting your fingers dirty.

The ground on your generator is only connected between the ground pins of the receptacles, the ground lug and possibly any metal in the chassis. Until you plug your bonding plug it, there will be no potential between it and anything else. After bonding it you should see 120V between ground and hot on all receptacles.

Thanks wnjj, hopefully not...but I am pretty sure I checked voltage with the bonding plug inserted and still saw one reading on all 3 receptacles (hot & neutral). At work now but will double check to be sure when I get home. If that is indeed the case, do I need to do something with the striped yellow/green wire? Cheers!

[wnjj]

TheHound wrote:

wnjj wrote:
Looks great. Hopefully there's enough slack to do that.

Your sir are a ***bleeping*** genius lol!
SUCCESS!

This has been quite the learning process and I thank everyone that has piped in so far 🙂 But one more question, sorry.

I noticed now I am getting voltage readings on all receptacles ONLY between hot and neutral. I thought I should also see it between hot and ground. :? Which is correct? Cheers! -Frank

Excellent! Good work getting in there and getting your fingers dirty.

The ground on your generator is only connected between the ground pins of the receptacles, the ground lug and possibly any metal in the chassis. Until you plug your bonding plug it, there will be no potential between it and anything else. After bonding it you should see 120V between ground and hot on all receptacles.

[TheHound]

wnjj wrote:
Looks great. Hopefully there's enough slack to do that.

Your sir are a ***bleeping*** genius lol!
SUCCESS!

This has been quite the learning process and I thank everyone that has piped in so far 🙂 But one more question, sorry.

I noticed now I am getting voltage readings on all receptacles ONLY between hot and neutral. I thought I should also see it between hot and ground. :? Which is correct? Cheers! -Frank

[TheHound]

road-runner wrote:
Hound, nothing personal if you ignore this post as a distraction. When I get involved in a mystery like this I like to thoroughly understand what's happening. In the wiring diagram the connections to the hour meter aren't particularly logical. It has 6 wires going to it: 2 from a generator aux winding, 2 carrying AC power from the inverter, and 2 feeding the 20 amp outlet (but not the 30 amp outlet). A bit of the illogic is removed upon discovering that what the diagram calls an hour meter isn't an hour meter, but a multi function meter. The manual conveniently doesn't say what the functions are, but (to the rescue) the sales material says it displays output voltage, frequency, engine RPM, and run time. Now the connection to the aux winding makes sense because that's where the engine RPM is derived from. Instead of routing the inverter output through the meter module, as shown in the diagram, it appears that they're going straight from the inverter to the outlets (both 20 and 30 amp), and feeding the AC back to the meter module over the 2 small green wires, providing the voltage and frequency information. The run time info and power for the module could come from either the aux winding or AC output. If there's only 1 red and 1 white wire going to the hour meter, that would be the wires from the aux winding. If there's more then one red or one white, it's beyond my ability to guess without more info.

road-runner, thanks for breaking this all down and not a distraction at all. This has been an incredible learning process and I am trying to better understand how all this works for future reference.

Not long ago, I wouldn't have known what a multimeter was but thanks to forums such as this, I wired up an entire solar kit and inverter at my cabin. So thanks for participating in this discussion 🙂 Cheers! -Frank

[road-runner]

Hound, nothing personal if you ignore this post as a distraction. When I get involved in a mystery like this I like to thoroughly understand what's happening. In the wiring diagram the connections to the hour meter aren't particularly logical. It has 6 wires going to it: 2 from a generator aux winding, 2 carrying AC power from the inverter, and 2 feeding the 20 amp outlet (but not the 30 amp outlet). A bit of the illogic is removed upon discovering that what the diagram calls an hour meter isn't an hour meter, but a multi function meter. The manual conveniently doesn't say what the functions are, but (to the rescue) the sales material says it displays output voltage, frequency, engine RPM, and run time. Now the connection to the aux winding makes sense because that's where the engine RPM is derived from. Instead of routing the inverter output through the meter module, as shown in the diagram, it appears that they're going straight from the inverter to the outlets (both 20 and 30 amp), and feeding the AC back to the meter module over the 2 small green wires, providing the voltage and frequency information. The run time info and power for the module could come from either the aux winding or AC output. If there's only 1 red and 1 white wire going to the hour meter, that would be the wires from the aux winding. If there's more then one red or one white, it's beyond my ability to guess without more info.