How common are parks with "cheater" 50amp service?

[TDIStan]

How common are parks with "cheater" 50amp service? By "cheater" 50amp service I mean a standard NMEA 14-50R outlet that has been wired with BOTH hot terminals on the same 120v leg. "Cheater" 50amp service does not provide 240v - only two 120v circuits.

If you have encountered parks that are wired this way, how recently? Is there a pattern that might predict where/when to be suspicious? Regions of the country? Private vs public lands parks? Age of the park? I am not confident that the person answering the reservation phone will know the difference.

I know that most rigs with 50a shore power cords will run OK off of a "cheater" outlet, but this fall I will be traveling with both my RV and a PEV - Plugin Electric Vehicle. The PEV is not towable - my wife will drive it while I drive the rig. Our driving days will be short so that the PEV will arrive at the next park ready to be recharged.

The PEV charges from a "standard" NMEA 14-50R, 240v/50a outlet, wired as per the NEC. If we arrive at a park with "cheater" wiring we're in trouble - we can get a few miles overnight from a 120v/20a outlet, but not a full day's driving. Knowing that the park we're headed to has a proper 240v/50a supply would mean peace of mind.

Thanks for your help.

[Dtank]

Lynnmor wrote:
Perhaps you could fill up the RV with the parks lawnmower fuel? 😛

Nice analogy!....

however, I think it went over the OP's head!..:W

Make a good song title...."Your Cheatin' ......"

Admin/Mod - might be time to get the hook?

:S

[CA_Traveler]

deltabravo wrote:

TDIStan wrote:
How common are parks with "cheater" 50amp service? By "cheater" 50amp service I mean a standard NMEA 14-50R outlet that has been wired with BOTH hot terminals on the same 120v leg. "Cheater" 50amp service does not provide 240v - only two 120v circuits.

Sounds like that kind of wiring isn't going to pass code / electrical inspection, so I can't imagine why an outlet would be wired like that.

They can now advertise 50A service at virtually no cost.

Truthfully most RVers won't know the difference and if they do then of course the "problem" is with the utility company.

[deltabravo]

TDIStan wrote:
How common are parks with "cheater" 50amp service? By "cheater" 50amp service I mean a standard NMEA 14-50R outlet that has been wired with BOTH hot terminals on the same 120v leg. "Cheater" 50amp service does not provide 240v - only two 120v circuits.

Sounds like that kind of wiring isn't going to pass code / electrical inspection, so I can't imagine why an outlet would be wired like that.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Keep in mind that the old Onan 6.5 NH 18-turn generators delivered parallel 30-amp service to a pair of 30-amp breakers. The taps were reconfigurable to opt for 240 service but left the factory as a single phase 120 volt plant.

[westernrvparkow]

MrWizard wrote:
both of you guys are overlooking the whole topic

"50amp cheater"

only 50amps available at the plug, not 100amps
because only ONE 50amp 'service leg' was used to power both legs of the 50amp receptacle

meaning only 50amps at 120v is available ,,, shared to both legs of the outlet
NOT possible to use more, the 50amp breaker will trip

No, a "cheater" 50 amp service would be where one leg of the service wiring (generally 200 or more amp service) is split at the pedestal and used to supply both sides of a 50 amp double pole breaker. This would allow a total supply of 100 amps, but since it is only one leg of service the neutral will carry the sum of the total amperage draw, rather than the difference which is what happens when a double pole breaker is properly wired. As others have pointed out this can lead to the neutral carrying 100 amps. And if this setup is repeated up and down a row of RVs the neutral could end up carrying multiple times that, leading eventually to a fire hazard or worse.
This situation will most likely arise in an older park that was originally wired with 30 amp services. In such services only one leg is required to be run to each service pedestal. Rather than rewire the park, a shade tree electrician just added a 50 amp receptacle either with a 50 amp breaker in the line or even worse, just wired directly to the receptacle by splitting the main feeder. (in that case, there won't even be a 50 amp breaker in the box, just a receptacle in a box nailed to a post or tree).

[CA_Traveler]

Wiz,

From the OP. Does not imply to me that the single 120V hot wire is protected by a 50A CB. That wire might have more current carrying capability as part of the distribution system.

"How common are parks with "cheater" 50amp service? By "cheater" 50amp service I mean a standard NMEA 14-50R outlet that has been wired with BOTH hot terminals on the same 120v leg. "Cheater" 50amp service does not provide 240v - only two 120v circuits."

[wnjj]

MrWizard wrote:
both of you guys are overlooking the whole topic

"50amp cheater"

only 50amps available at the plug, not 100amps
because only ONE 50amp 'service leg' was used to power both legs of the 50amp receptacle

meaning only 50amps at 120v is available ,,, shared to both legs of the outlet
NOT possible to use more, the 50amp breaker will trip

That depends upon what 50A breaker you have and how it's wired. If it's the normal 50A 2-pole breaker, wiring both inputs to the same incoming leg will not limit the total current to 50A since each side of the breaker has its own 50A trip limit.

If it's a single-pole breaker with a single output wire that in turn feeds both pins of the 50A receptacle, then you're correct and the total is limited.

If it is the two-pole breaker with only one side in use (acting like a single-pole) that in turn feeds both pins in the receptacle, it's fine.

In other words, did they cheat the incoming bus bars or just the 50A receptacle downstream of the breaker?

[MrWizard]

both of you guys are overlooking the whole topic

"50amp cheater"

only 50amps available at the plug, not 100amps
because only ONE 50amp 'service leg' was used to power both legs of the 50amp receptacle

meaning only 50amps at 120v is available ,,, shared to both legs of the outlet
NOT possible to use more, the 50amp breaker will trip

[CA_Traveler]

vermilye wrote:

MrWizard wrote:
it's totally safe
It's exactly what happens when you use 30 male to 50 female to run the 50 amp RV on a 30 amp service

Only the so called cheater pedestal, would be one 50 amp leg, ( instead of only 30 amps ) powering the 50 amp outlet, giving 25 amps on each leg
Or 50 on one leg or whatever each leg of the RV pulled up to the total of 50 amps of 120v available

How safe it would be depends on how the electrician wired it. If both legs of the 50 amp breaker are connected to the input wiring, it is possible to draw 50 amps on EACH leg in the RV. Instead of the neutral carrying the difference between the two hots, it would carry the sum. 50 + 50 is 100 amps on the unfused neutral. Unless it is oversized, that could be a problem. While it is not likely an RV would draw a full 50 amps on each leg, it is technically possible.

X2 While a total draw of 100A is unlikely, it is also common for 50A rigs to draw more that 50A especially during the summer.

My 04 Endeaver with the 7500 Owen had 2 120V circuits and could draw 61A on the neutral. The neutral wire from the gen to the ATS and then to the CB panel was one size larger than the 2 hots to handle the 62A.

[vermilye]

MrWizard wrote:
it's totally safe
It's exactly what happens when you use 30 male to 50 female to run the 50 amp RV on a 30 amp service

Only the so called cheater pedestal, would be one 50 amp leg, ( instead of only 30 amps ) powering the 50 amp outlet, giving 25 amps on each leg
Or 50 on one leg or whatever each leg of the RV pulled up to the total of 50 amps of 120v available

How safe it would be depends on how the electrician wired it. If both legs of the 50 amp breaker are connected to the input wiring, it is possible to draw 50 amps on EACH leg in the RV. Instead of the neutral carrying the difference between the two hots, it would carry the sum. 50 + 50 is 100 amps on the unfused neutral. Unless it is oversized, that could be a problem. While it is not likely an RV would draw a full 50 amps on each leg, it is technically possible.

[wolfe10]

Not worth correcting this one any more.

Part of this issue is how one refers to the two hots (240 between them in a 50 amp RV outlet) and part is ...........

[MrWizard]

it's totally safe
It's exactly what happens when you use 30 male to 50 female to run the 50 amp RV on a 30 amp service

Only the so called cheater pedestal, would be one 50 amp leg, ( instead of only 30 amps ) powering the 50 amp outlet, giving 25 amps on each leg
Or 50 on one leg or whatever each leg of the RV pulled up to the total of 50 amps of 120v available

[Harvey51]

allen8106 wrote:

TDIStan wrote:
I mean a standard NMEA 14-50R outlet that has been wired with BOTH hot terminals on the same 120v leg.

This is standard for RV's and RV service. This gives you two 120 volt legs in your RV. One usually runs the AC or multiple AC's, the other usually runs all other 120 circuits.

It won’t be safe unless there are two neutral wires or one big one with the capacity to return the current from both hot wires.

[allen8106]

TDIStan wrote:
I mean a standard NMEA 14-50R outlet that has been wired with BOTH hot terminals on the same 120v leg.

This is standard for RV's and RV service. This gives you two 120 volt legs in your RV. One usually runs the AC or multiple AC's, the other usually runs all other 120 circuits.