Propane overfill by a "professional"

[uScott]

Looks like I'll be shopping for a new local propane guy. Which I should have already done, but there's only one last straw.

I took one of my 30# cylinders down to fill from dead empty. This genius somehow managed to cram 7.6 gallons into it. By my math, that's about 88% capacity. Did I mention we'll be taking this tank from northern Utah (temps 10s-20s) to southern Arizona (40s-70s)? I have a plan to drain the tank down some before we travel, but sheesh.

I guess this guy was taught that horizontal-use cylinders are also filled in the horizontal position, so that's what he does. Never mind the big bright label that says "FILL IN VERTICAL POSITION ONLY", which I've pointed out to him a few times. His way must be the right way, 'cause you can get 'em more fuller, right?

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a licensing body that would like to hear about this....

[AO_hitech]

It cannot be that dangerous to fill propane by something other than weight. You can't weigh the propane in a motorhome tank while filing it. 😉

[RJsfishin]

I don't understand the tanks blowing up. All the valves are designed to vent slowly. Tanks cannot blow up if the valves are operating properly. If they aren't, so be it. If the brakes don't work right on your car, you could die too.
Fires, of course,....vent in or around an open flame, and what do you expect ! ?

And you guys hyped on filling by weights, preach to someone who will listen.
I've has a thousand tanks (call them what you like) filled over 60 yrs, and not a one has ever even had a scale, let alone fill by weight. Yes, I live in Winston OR, and I defy anyone to find a filling station w/ in 50 miles that has a scale.
Besides that, many propane distributors around here will deliver you a large tank, and set it up for do it yourself "gravity fill". And you are not required to go to school to fill, just listen to the little speech when they set it up.

There is even a place in Ca that is a "do it yourself" refill. There too you must listen to the little one time speech, then you are a professional filler.

[3_tons]

westend wrote:

dougrainer wrote:
I am licensed(34 years) by the Texas Railroad Commission. Yes, despite its name it regulates all Natural/LP gas operations in the state of Texas. The TRC has been around for over 70 years. THE ONLY CORRECT SAFE METHOD OF FILLING DOT PORTABLE TANKS IS BY WEIGHT.PERIOD!
The fact that you CAN fill by other means does not mean it is a safe method. Filling by any other means than weight, gets you to the hazards and problems YOU encountered. We have to have continued education every 3 years to keep our License current. In those seminars they show pics and describe the aftermath of overfilled DOT tanks that have blown out and caused fires and damage. ESPECIALLY, one I remember from years back about the exact same situation you have---overfilled at below 30 degrees and in the back of a enclosed truck and they went to a higher temp 90 plus and the tank once it blew the valve caused the pick up to catch on fire. Remember, it is YOUR life or family that will have the problems by a unsafe filled tank. Doug

Thanks for posting that, Doug.
I'm sure some, like me, get a bit complacent about using propane and it always pays to be cautious using gas and to be observant about how the tanks are handled and filled.
I've had a pressure valve release inside a van with an overfilled 20 lb. tank and it was an unforgettable experience. I could not see my hands on the wheel, let alone through the windshield. I was lucky.

While the direct weight method is the most accurate, by knowing specific gravity and adjusting for temperature weight can be (and often is) imputed. When transiting bulk cargos from one geographical region to another (cold to hot), a 20% vapor space in bulk containers is very cheap insurance.

3 tons

[3_tons]

All you actually need is about a 10% vapor space for product expansion. Having worked around bulk propane for many years, 10% is typically what you'll find in the big bulk storage tanks (45k gals each) even if over 100degsF ambient. Twenty percent is a very conservative number likely driven by the DOT...

3 tons

[westend]

dougrainer wrote:
I am licensed(34 years) by the Texas Railroad Commission. Yes, despite its name it regulates all Natural/LP gas operations in the state of Texas. The TRC has been around for over 70 years. THE ONLY CORRECT SAFE METHOD OF FILLING DOT PORTABLE TANKS IS BY WEIGHT.PERIOD!
The fact that you CAN fill by other means does not mean it is a safe method. Filling by any other means than weight, gets you to the hazards and problems YOU encountered. We have to have continued education every 3 years to keep our License current. In those seminars they show pics and describe the aftermath of overfilled DOT tanks that have blown out and caused fires and damage. ESPECIALLY, one I remember from years back about the exact same situation you have---overfilled at below 30 degrees and in the back of a enclosed truck and they went to a higher temp 90 plus and the tank once it blew the valve caused the pick up to catch on fire. Remember, it is YOUR life or family that will have the problems by a unsafe filled tank. Doug

Thanks for posting that, Doug.
I'm sure some, like me, get a bit complacent about using propane and it always pays to be cautious using gas and to be observant about how the tanks are handled and filled.
I've had a pressure valve release inside a van with an overfilled 20 lb. tank and it was an unforgettable experience. I could not see my hands on the wheel, let alone through the windshield. I was lucky.

[Learjet]

I just did something really dumb a few weeks ago.

Had a new 20 lb tank refilled for the 2nd time. I put it in my TT for the trip to transport it. I use this tank for a patio heater. I didn't take it out right away when I arrived at camp, instead I put on the heater, which was blowing on the tank.

A few minutes later the wife tells me the tank is leaking. Holly #$@$%

It really scared me!

If she wouldn't have been in there to catch the leak right away...I'm sure there would have been an explosion. I was probably stuipd for going in and pulling the tank out, but I did.

The tank cooled outside and stopped venting, then we used up a few gallons with the pation heater.

Close call....and many lessons learned.:S

Now I continue to worry is the tank still good?

[dougrainer]

I am licensed(34 years) by the Texas Railroad Commission. Yes, despite its name it regulates all Natural/LP gas operations in the state of Texas. The TRC has been around for over 70 years. THE ONLY CORRECT SAFE METHOD OF FILLING DOT PORTABLE TANKS IS BY WEIGHT.PERIOD!
The fact that you CAN fill by other means does not mean it is a safe method. Filling by any other means than weight, gets you to the hazards and problems YOU encountered. We have to have continued education every 3 years to keep our License current. In those seminars they show pics and describe the aftermath of overfilled DOT tanks that have blown out and caused fires and damage. ESPECIALLY, one I remember from years back about the exact same situation you have---overfilled at below 30 degrees and in the back of a enclosed truck and they went to a higher temp 90 plus and the tank once it blew the valve caused the pick up to catch on fire. Remember, it is YOUR life or family that will have the problems by a unsafe filled tank. Doug

[uScott]

How did the fellow know to shut off the flow at 7.6 gals?

Spitter valve.

I don't get it. After the first time he filled it incorrect, I'd never go back. Final! That's it! Why did you keep going back? Why not complain to his manager? But why blindly let him keep doing it?

Hardly blind, my friend! Frankly, he's never managed to get quite so much propane into these tanks before. 7.0, 7.1, a little over but not enough to be scary. "Only one last straw", like I said.

What I'd do is put that tank in service NOW, use it to heat water and the RV while you are packing to move, by the time you are on the road you should be good.

Aye, it's been running the furnace, keeping the rig defrosted until we're ready to roll. It's well below 80% now.

NOTE: there is an alternate method for telling when a portable tank is full that works well. SCALE THE THING.

Hmm. I've always bought propane by volume, never by weight. They just don't do it that way out here in the west -- I gather that it's more common back east. Here, most stations don't even have a scale. I've only seen one exception, and that was a rusty old beam scale made in the 1930s. A nice collector's piece, really.

It's a good thing you put professional in quotes. I attended a formal course by the state of FL for dispensing propane but didn't have to. Most places you only need one certified person for every 8 or 10 dispensers. The non-certified folks usually get a 5 minute briefing on how to do it, then they're turned loose on live customers.

When I was a kid, I worked at a gas station that also sold propane. My total training was the owner doing a show-and-tell with me a couple of times, and then I was a genuine propane pumpin' professional! At least I had the brains to say "I don't know how to fill this" when someone brought me a weird-looking tank I'd never seen before. (Which I now recognize as a liquid-service forklift cylinder, but at the time....)

So the question came up once already. Did he charge you for more propane than was supposed to be put in the tank?

As noted, it's sold by volume here. Paid for what I got, got what I paid for, and made good use of it.

[Ex-Tech]

whiteeye42 wrote:
Before they came out with the new 80% valves they use to fill to 100% and nobody complained then they started replacing with the new valves and everybody started complaining that they were getting ripped off since they were only getting 80% that extra 1/2 gallon won't hurt a thing just run the heater and the fridge for an hour and you will be good to go

The "new 80% valves" aren't new at all and prior to the new OPD (overfill protection device) valves, most all portable propane tank valves were the same whether on a 20, 30 or 40 pound tank.
What makes the valve spit liquid at 80% is the length of the spitter valve dip-tube which is different for each size tank. These dip-tubes screw into the fill valve.
This system has been used since I entered the RV business in 1972.

Valves on a horizantal tank are different in that there is an additional "J" shapped tube that comes out of the bottom of the valve that curves up above the liquid level when the tank is in the horizantal position.

[Chris_Bryant]

joshuajim wrote:
I believe the reason for keeping tanks vertical is that if the tank should vent due to overpressure in the horizontal position, it could vent liquid propane, a much more dangerous situation.

That's exactly it- venting liquid does several things- the liquid will flash to a vapor (at a ratio of 270 times the volume),and in doing so it has the distinct possibility of freezing the relief valve open, because it is boiling at ~ -40 f.

[edatlanta]

I agree with you Pirate, but my local propane source will not let you leave his facility unless your tank is vertical and if you tell you in advance you are going to leave with it horizontal he won't fill it.

[joshuajim]

I believe the reason for keeping tanks vertical is that if the tank should vent due to overpressure in the horizontal position, it could vent liquid propane, a much more dangerous situation.

[Bucky_Badger]

U haul saw my tanks laying down in my truck and refused to fill them that day

[Pirate1]

edatlanta wrote:
I had a couple of 20lb tanks filled a few weeks back that I use at a friend's home patio for a bit of heat when we are sitting out in cooler weather. I always transport these to the fill station laying down in the back of my pickup. After they were full the guy told me that they must leave his store in the vertical position or he would confiscate them. He said after I left his lot he didn't care, but one of their other locations got a $10,000.00 fine for allowing a portable tank to leave horizontal. I looked on the label and sure enough, there is the info.

I can imagine the scene if a "good ole boy" had his tank confiscated. The police would be called I'm sure.

I just loaded mine vertical and left. I can see a problem with the 100 lb tanks due to their size. Vertical would have to be tied very tightly in order to travel.

Seems it would be safer to tide down those larger tanks in the bed of a pickup instead of leaving them vertical for transport.

[Old-Biscuit]

red31 wrote:

Charlie D. wrote:

Is the overfill valve the same valve that shuts off flow if there is a broken line downstream that would allow uncontrolled release?

No the connector (QCC-1/ACME) has the excess flow feature.

Also, built-in thermal protection on the QCC connector melts allowing the nipple to disengage from the tank connection and stop the flow of propane.

X2
The OPD (overfill protective device) has one function.....to prevent overfilling, when tank is in proper position to be refilled. It has no function when cylinder is in service.