Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system

[ncognet0]

Im pondering buying a new coach and am intrigued by the new Super Solar system by Keystone Montana. I really like the idea and concept that its 100% powered by the sun. They even claim it can run the AC units/microwave/heater... everything. My dilemma is this, the last "newest upgrade thing" I purchased was a tankless hot water heater in my old 5th wheel and hated it. I had to run several gallons of water through it before it got hot, that don't work for dry camping. That being said is the 15 K worth it for this off grid solar system? Anyone have it? Thoughts?

[StirCrazy]

if you can DIY you can do a set up for about 5000.00

I think that package is way over priced. If there willing to sell it for 14 they probably pay 7 (or less) for it. they should give a few different options (battery types and such) and they might sell more at different price points.

Steve

[n0arp]

kowbra wrote:
Ok, now that makes sense. You've really given a lot of great information here!

Interesting how Victron seems to have been long known in the marine world, but now more popular in RV as well. I really didn't see much info on them 3 years ago when doing my last RV.
And, your panels and batteries are names I've not seen before either.
Thanks again!

Brad

There are a lot more options once you look at higher voltages. 24 and 48V are the common residential, commercial, and industrial voltages. REC and SimpliPhi don't really try to compete in the niche 12V market - and in that market, your choices are limited.

[kowbra]

Ok, now that makes sense. You've really given a lot of great information here!

Interesting how Victron seems to have been long known in the marine world, but now more popular in RV as well. I really didn't see much info on them 3 years ago when doing my last RV.
And, your panels and batteries are names I've not seen before either.
Thanks again!

Brad

[n0arp]

kowbra wrote:

jshupe wrote:

kowbra wrote:
BTW, this video seems to be the most thorough I can find so far...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9RD4qmud0s

There is a section in there about the power management... I think it will help in other situations besides just straight battery power; examples could be 30amp and want to run both ACs, or AC+microwave. Or, 15amp power and want to run 1 AC...

Brad

I forgot to mention, the Victron inverters already do that. No need for something extra.

They actually have a few different ways to configure it. Check out their PowerAssist and ESS documentation.

Ok, so does that mean you have eliminated the factory charger/converter?

But, I'm still not sure I get it... with the precision power management, it is replacing the entire output side of the power grid independently of any of the input sources. I think that it so that it can monitor all of the inputs by being in the middle? How would 1 or both of the Victron's monitor all of the outputs from all of the possible inputs?
(trying to wrap my head around it...)

Brad

Correct - my 48V Victron inverters have chargers as well, to charge the 48V bank. Then I have Victron Orion DC-DC converters charging my 12V battery, and supplying up to 60A of 12V load on their own. Or you could just go all 12V for a smaller system and eliminate the separate systems. The factory 12V converter is gone.

Everything passes through the Victron inverters. They are your power management. They have AC inputs (for shore power, generator, etc) and outputs for your loads. In a 50A configuration, you have two legs, each inverter physically handles one leg. If you use an autotransformer it gets a little complicated, but effectively it load balances the loads equally across both inverters, regardless of which leg the load is on.

If you have a 32A load and have shore power capped at 24A, for instance, the Victrons will supply the additional 8A via inverter/battery.

Not mine, but a nice schematic I found on another forum. https://community.victronenergy.com/storage/attachments/6787-rv-inverter-design-end-state-victron-li...

Note that the diagram has an autotransformer, but that is used to step up the generator from 120V to split phase 240V, and not to load balance, in this specific diagram. That's what my second unit does.

[kowbra]

jshupe wrote:

kowbra wrote:
BTW, this video seems to be the most thorough I can find so far...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9RD4qmud0s

There is a section in there about the power management... I think it will help in other situations besides just straight battery power; examples could be 30amp and want to run both ACs, or AC+microwave. Or, 15amp power and want to run 1 AC...

Brad

I forgot to mention, the Victron inverters already do that. No need for something extra.

They actually have a few different ways to configure it. Check out their PowerAssist and ESS documentation.

Ok, so does that mean you have eliminated the factory charger/converter?

But, I'm still not sure I get it... with the precision power management, it is replacing the entire output side of the power grid independently of any of the input sources. I think that it so that it can monitor all of the inputs by being in the middle? How would 1 or both of the Victron's monitor all of the outputs from all of the possible inputs?
(trying to wrap my head around it...)

Brad

[n0arp]

kowbra wrote:
BTW, this video seems to be the most thorough I can find so far...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9RD4qmud0s

There is a section in there about the power management... I think it will help in other situations besides just straight battery power; examples could be 30amp and want to run both ACs, or AC+microwave. Or, 15amp power and want to run 1 AC...

Brad

I forgot to mention, the Victron inverters already do that. No need for anything extra.

They actually have a few different ways to configure it. Check out their PowerAssist and ESS (not usually recommended for mobile applications, but it's great) documentation.

There are lots of things they do, that you won't find in with the 3kW Magnum.

[kowbra]

BTW, this video seems to be the most thorough I can find so far...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9RD4qmud0s

There is a section in there about the power management... I think it will help in other situations besides just straight battery power; examples could be 30amp and want to run both ACs, or AC+microwave. Or, 15amp power and want to run 1 AC...

Brad

[kowbra]

Again, many thanks jshupe!

I think it's fair for me to say, your DIY solar skills are way beyond mine!

That gives me a good comparison... there is no doubt your solution is more capable. But, actually with labor, I'm thinking the Montana solution is not entirely out of line either... decisions, decisions 😉

Brad

[n0arp]

kowbra wrote:
Thanks jshupe!

Do you have an estimate on the man hours to install?

Thanks,
Brad

I took my time and installed everything over a weekend - working probably 12-16 hours each day. It could have been done faster but I spent a lot of time on the details and crimped all my own cables, etc.

I'll grant you professional installation - say 30 hours at $100/hr - wouldn't be unreasonable.

[kowbra]

Thanks jshupe!

Do you have an estimate on the man hours to install?

Thanks,
Brad

[n0arp]

My initial setup cost a little under $17,500. I bought all items from the same vendor to get the best pricing via a project discount.

6x REC N-PEAK Series 325 Watt panels @ ~$200/ea
2x Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/35 solar charge controller @ ~$300/ea
2x Victron Quattro 48/3000/35-50/50 inverters @ ~$1750/ea
2x Victron Autotransformers @ ~$600/ea
2x Victron Orion-Tr 48/12-30A DC-DC converters @ ~$200/ea
1x Victron Venus GX @ ~$300
1x Victron BMV-712 @ ~$200
3x SimpliPhi 3.8kWh batteries @ ~$2600/ea

That's around $15,200 in major components, then the cables, boxes, breakers, etc brought it to a little over $17K.

I could run both ACs without soft starts, no issue. There may be something to that power management system - but you don't need it for a system this size if you aren't running air conditioning all the time.

Also note, REC is a massive commercial panel manufacturer and SimpliPhi is a large commercial battery manufacturer. Jaboni is rebranded Victron. Dual Victrons provide true split phase 240V power like your 50A rig is designed to run on, without a phase selector. The Autotransformers (which are completely optional) allow you to load balance loads across both inverters. And there has to be some place to put your batteries so that they aren't outside the rig. There is plenty of room behind the false walls in basement storage in almost any fifth wheel.

[kowbra]

Thanks, I appreciate the additional information!

I guess it all depends on what your needs are; my last solar setup was 300 watts of panels, 600 watt inverter and dual T-105 golf cart batteries. Didn't run AC, didn't expect to... it ran the lights, the TV center and charged my devices, while still powering the furnace on cooler nights. If it was cloudy, I ran a small portable generator as needed. So, this Montana solution is massive,,, for me.

Now, I still didn't get the math on your system, but here is the math I did for the Montana system...

-4x Jaboni panels (latest is that they will be 300w panels). List is $800 each. Ok, maybe you can do other brands for less than half of that, so $1400 instead of $3200...
-3000w Magnum inverter... this is normally a $2800 unit, but some places have it on sale for $2000
-510ah of lithium... Battleborn 100ah are either $950 or $1050 depending on configuration, call it $1000 each, so $5000 for 500ah. NOTE, there will be no low temperature charging option with these, which is useful at times for our winter boondocking, even in the SW...
-dual Jaboni 30amp MPPT controllers, $450
-Victron battery monitor, $250
-Precision power management system; I cannot even find all of the parts, but best I could tell the 3 components are about $1500-2000 (look into this, it is not just a couple of dongles here...)
-dual soft starts on the ACs, $600

Total for above, about $11-12k, and that isn't apples to apples. Here's what's missing:
-all the bits and pieces of panel mounts, cabling and connectors, shunts, fuses, disconnects, etc
-no built in option to heat batteries to safely charge in cold weather
-protected cabinet, out of the way in the center of the coach
-labor to install
-factory warranty


So,if I do the math, there "might" be a $2-3000 savings for the DIY... if they do not want to acknowledge the dollar value to the extras above. However, if you do put an appropriate value on the items above AND also want to pay someone to install, to compare apples to apples? Then, $15k will be a bargain... and it IS $15k, not $20k...

So, while I stand to be corrected, I think for the "non DIY crowd", and the "I just want to order it all from the factory to have one throat to choke", or "I want it neatly installed in an out of the way, protected cabinet"... I would not be so quick as some are on this thread to dismiss this all as nonsense, or ridiculous in price...

But, again, if someone wants to provide alternate data, I'm listening...
Thanks!

Brad

[n0arp]

kowbra wrote:
Can you help me understand why you say this is a small setup? Also, can you help me with the math on what you mean by "much better for $20k"? And, no sarcasm intended, I really do want to know.

Just one note though, no one should pay MSRP, and most are seeing selling prices of about $15k, which is what I was quoted...


Brad

I edited my post with more details.

For scale, I have 3kW of solar panels and the equivalent of 1800AH LiFePO4 (at 12V, but mine is running at 48V) and I know of at least a few people with even larger systems. Even at basically triple the solar and triple the battery, running the factory rooftop AC units (even if they were the Mach units) for extended periods of time would never work. Their marketing - I think more than anything - is what bugs me. You can make the math work with mini-splits, which is what they should be looking at to accompany this sort of thing - New Horizons has started shipping units with them and a few DIYers have gone that route.

I've seen a couple fifth wheels approach 4kW, which I may go for in the future as I have the room. I also know of one person who put a full 85kWh bank of Tesla cells (my bank is 22.8kWh, for comparison) in a Prevost bus, but I wouldn't ever trust those cells in an RV or recommend them to others.

As for Dragonfly/Battleborn, I know several people who are happy with them.

[kowbra]

jshupe wrote:
I still consider this a small setup - you can do much better for $20K - including a full Victron suite and GX/VRM monitoring, not just their BMV-712.

What I think this is going to do is cause a lot of people to be unhappy, because they think they're buying a comprehensive solution for a lot of money but in reality it doesn't power all that much.

Can you help me understand why you say this is a small setup? Also, can you help me with the math on what you mean by "much better for $20k"? And, no sarcasm intended, I really do want to know.

Just one note though, no one should pay MSRP, and most are seeing selling prices of about $15k, which is what I was quoted...


Brad

[n0arp]

I still consider this a small setup - you can do much better for $20K - including a full Victron suite and GX/VRM monitoring, not just their BMV-712.

What I think this is going to do is cause a lot of people to be unhappy, because they think they're buying a comprehensive solution for a lot of money but in reality it doesn't power all that much.

My initial setup consisted of 2kW REC panels, 900AH (@12V, my system is actually 48V) of SimpliPhi LiFePO4, dual Victron Quattros w/ two Autotransformers, Victron Venus GX, and a pair of Victron Orions. All supporting components such as wiring and breakers were high quality and name brand - no expenses spared - and that cost a couple thousand less than they're asking, self installed.

The kicker is that even with that system, I wasn't happy and I've added panels, batteries, and more to get to that point.