Self serve LPG? Update; link added

[beemerphile1]

Read an article that the new Menards being built in my town will have a self serve LPG filling island in the parking lot. The article described it as if you will connect and fill your own cylinders.

Ever see one? I haven't.

UPDATE:
Well, I did find a link. It specifically says "Self-serve Propane Filling Station"

http://www.mytownneo.com/news/20171220/brimfield-menards-gets-ok-for-self-serve-propane-filling-stat...

[pnichols]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
The mother of all bombs MOAB is an FAE Fuel Air Explosive. The Taliban has learned more about them and the Hyperbaric Bomb than they really wanted to know.

David - "Hyperbaric Bomb" ... did you make up that phrase ... or is that a Hyper-Secret Pentagon buzzword?

All three Ultimate Sages knew nothing about it: Wikipedia, or Wikimedia Commons, or Rational Wiki.

By the way ... isn't my CPAP machine a hyperbaric device? 😉

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Many many lunas ago, I brought down a POL to disposable bottle adapter **** valve, scale, yadda.

Was ensconced on the far end of a beach called Zipolite. Fellow asked me one day "Where can I find one pound disposable cylinders for my stove?

Here? Like no place.

I ended up doing him a favor with an inverted 5 gallon pot GRAVITATING LPG down into the disposable. By weight - exactly 1.0 pounds net tare. Checked for leaks. Charged him a dollar.

Next thing I knew my poor folding table was crowded with cylinders. The whole danged beach it seemed like wanted gas for their stoves and lanterns.

I had to fire up my Dometic FC-140 chest freezer to freeze the empties. About eight or so in ten turned out to be refillable. The other one point five leaked and were returned to their owner. I leaked checked them first with pure gas not liquid. Then screwed them into a fitting that emptied them to air pressure. Into the freezer they went. The next morning, I could fill a one pound cylinder in about six or seven seconds. But I throttled down by using an orifice so I would have better control.

I did seventy cylinders the first day. At the time, I had a Superior school bus with a pair of 83 gallon Manchester motor fuel tanks. So I refilled the pot out of the motor fuel tanks. I had so many people bugging me, I finally robbed one of the thirties I had set aside for the chest freezer.

I became swamped as people ditched their white gas stoves and lanterns and went back to LPG. So I raised my price to 2 dollars. Didn't slow the flood down at all. It seemed like everyone came with a dozen cylinders.

At that time, gas was about nineteen cents a gallon. Cost me a nickel per cylinder.

The new business was ruining my prime time. So I only filled cylinders twice a week.

But with disposables the cylinders had to look like new and regardless had to be leak checked twice. Some I could reset the stopper in the cylinder and stop the leak. Other times no. If I ran a little heavy the fitting open to the air was permanently mounted under the table. Screw the bottle in a few turns and spin it back off.

I drove away with pockets jingling several hundred dollars heavier. I spent something like nine dollars to fill everything up which including gas for my own use. More than a few people asked "Gee will we find you here next year?"

[MEXICOWANDERER]

You take the lottery. I'll steal your bicycle and pedal like hell. Yeah the above is just one of dozens of explosions listed on the web. You say houses don't count? Ya wanna see a pretty new motorhome tweaked?




The mother of all bombs MOAB is an FAE Fuel Air Explosive. The Taliban has learned more about them and the Hyperbaric Bomb than they really wanted to know.

LPG is nothing to screw around with...

[free_radical]

Funny story about LPG,,
A friend of mine went visiting his grampa on his farm and noticed hes got one propane botle hanging upside down and another bottle down below it,
,both conected together..asked what the heck is he doing,,
was told hes trying to drain propane from the above tank to the lower one...

[Kayteg1]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Four gallons of exploding LPG at Stoichiometric Optimum, ideal air fuel ratio -- would utterly destroy a four bedroom house. Nothing left but a concrete slab that looked like it has been swept.

Yeah, but what are the chances for it to happen spontanicly?
The 4 gallons would have to leak from cylinder and stay in the house, while mix with the air to deliver optimum % mix and then a spark would have to be delivered.
I know, we see that kind of blows on TV movies all the time and the person making the sparks flies 100 feet into air, hits concrete wall 50 feet above the ground, falls down and then gets up, shakes the dust from clothing and walks away.
I rather buy lottery ticket.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

"What could possibly go wrong?"



Were were trained by MSA (Mine Safety Appliance) for LPG Dispensing. Before the days of the OPD overfill protection device.

• Check for receiving vessel cerification validity
• Visually check for corrosion, bent guards, damaged valve handles, tank dents
• Verify operation of the fill bleed valve. Crack the fill bleed valve open
• Grab the dispenser hose. Close the bleed down valve on the dispenser nozzle. Attach and tighten the POL or Fast Fill dispenser nozzle
• Open the receiver tank valve all the way until tight
• Open the dispenser **** valve
• Start pump
• Verify tank bleeder valve is bleeding
• Fill until gas just starts to turn to vapor out of tank bleeder valve. Stop pump
• Close dispenser nozzle. Close receiver tank valve
• Shut tank bleeder valve
• Vent liquid LPG through the dispenser fill nozzle bleed down. The bleed down exit NEVER was close to the dispensing nozzle. Liquid vented ten to 12 feet away
• Detach dispensing nozzle from tank
• Verify fill integrity by opening tank bleed valve. Only gas must escape
• If visible vapor (liquid) was escaping THE TANK WAS PROHIBITED from departing. The bleed down was left open and monitored until such time as only gas was venting.

I have no idea how this is done in the USA these days.

Back then, overfilling a tank was called "stuffing the tank". Mention "stuffing the tank" to a propane distributor and his hair would stand up on end.

Liquid propane squirted on a hand would give INSTANT frostbite. Damage. Doctor. Hospital. Needless to say about what liquid propane in the eyes would do.

Anyone who RELIES on floats and non return valves instead of brains, needs a lobotomy. Four gallons of exploding LPG at Stoichiometric Optimum, ideal air fuel ratio -- would utterly destroy a four bedroom house. Nothing left but a concrete slab that looked like it has been swept.

I urge everyone to take a bit of time to learn how to do this correctly. Most propane distributors would be tickled pink to spend ten minutes giving pointers. Take a box of donuts.

It just isn't worth injury, disfigurement or death...

[Kayteg1]

drsteve wrote:
According to this it is indeed a self serve propane filling station, not a bottle exchange, and will be a first for Menards.

Clicky

What could possibly go wrong?

I wonder why self-service required hiring more employees and monitoring cameras?
I still have feeling it is sloppy journalism.

[Kayteg1]

dougrainer wrote:


1. I am CERTIFIED in LP filling and LP repair on RV's. I have been for 38 years
2. Your comments just show that just because YOU have had POOR and dangerous filling practices does NOT make YOU an expert on LP systems.
3. The ONLY time you will vent liquid or vapor is when you disconnect and that amount is negligible. It disperses rapidly in the air and does not reach the proper LP/Air mix to cause an ignition source
4. The venting of Vapor while filling from the 80 percent valve is WHY, you do NOT have an LP filling station close to any other ignition sources(ASME Motorhome tank), and why you turn the tank valve OFF and have the appliances OFF.
5. People like you will beat a dead horse because you really have no knowledge of what you are talking about. You just THINK you know everything. Doug

So we have another CERTIFIED who doesn't open bleeding valve when filling up cylinders?

[MrWizard]

I wonder if it is something how automated
You connect the hose, it does a system check and auto fill ?
You then remove the bottle after closing the valve and getting the ok signal ?

[drsteve]

According to this it is indeed a self serve propane filling station, not a bottle exchange, and will be a first for Menards.

Clicky

What could possibly go wrong?

[dougrainer]

Kayteg1 wrote:

dougrainer wrote:


This comment is ridiculous. LP is under extreme pressure and is a Freezing Liquid when filling. A ten year old can put Gasoline in a car. An untrained ANY AGE could not correctly/Safely fill LP in a DOT tank or Motorhome ASME tank. There should NEVER be "Spilled" LP at any time. Slight vapor yes. Doug

Sounds like you haven't been much to propane fill station.
Not only filing process require constant spill of propane, make it mostly vapor but at the end in liquid, but when disconnecting hoses the operator has to spill several oz of liquid propane.
When filling my motorhome big tank, operators often had to use extensions, what added volume to spill.
I guess that is why most of stations offer price going down with volume.
The spill amount on 2 gallons is going to make much higher than on 50 gallons.

1. I am CERTIFIED in LP filling and LP repair on RV's. I have been for 38 years
2. Your comments just show that just because YOU have had POOR and dangerous filling practices does NOT make YOU an expert on LP systems.
3. The ONLY time you will vent liquid or vapor is when you disconnect and that amount is negligible. It disperses rapidly in the air and does not reach the proper LP/Air mix to cause an ignition source
4. The venting of Vapor while filling from the 80 percent valve is WHY, you do NOT have an LP filling station close to any other ignition sources(ASME Motorhome tank), and why you turn the tank valve OFF and have the appliances OFF.
5. People like you will beat a dead horse because you really have no knowledge of what you are talking about. You just THINK you know everything. Doug

[pnichols]

bdpreece wrote:
Poorly trained attendants are bad enough. Saw a motorhome a few years back that had burned to the axles. Idiot did not turn off the fridge before filling up with propane.

Well .... :h .... doesn't that depend upon where the refrigerator is located in the RV in relation to where the propane tank is located? i.e. Suppose the refrigerator is on the other side and down at the far end from where the propane tank is?

Also .... thank heavens propane fumes are heavier than air so that they flow downwards away from refrigerator burner flames!

P.S. We just turn off the coach battery system's master switch whenever refueling the engine gasoline tank or the propane tank. This makes it impossible for propane igniters to light the gas.

[SaltiDawg]

beemerphile1 wrote:
Updated OP

And yet Menard's Corporate Web Page makes it VERY clear that filling of individual cylinders is by store personnel ONLY.

I'd be very surprised if Menard allowed one location to depart from this liability and safety policy.

Menards Corporate Site

[red31]

Kayteg1 wrote:

dougrainer wrote:


This comment is ridiculous. LP is under extreme pressure and is a Freezing Liquid when filling. A ten year old can put Gasoline in a car. An untrained ANY AGE could not correctly/Safely fill LP in a DOT tank or Motorhome ASME tank. There should NEVER be "Spilled" LP at any time. Slight vapor yes. Doug

Sounds like you haven't been much to propane fill station.
Not only filing process require constant spill of propane, make it mostly vapor but at the end in liquid, but when disconnecting hoses the operator has to spill several oz of liquid propane.
When filling my motorhome big tank, operators often had to use extensions, what added volume to spill.
I guess that is why most of stations offer price going down with volume.
The spill amount on 2 gallons is going to make much higher % than on 50 gallons.

Ye older stations do vent the filling hose and ya get charged for it, in Yellow stone, the first 20 something female could not fill my 50+ gallon tank and use ~.2 gallons to fill the lines which she vented before getting help, the next 20 something male started over without ZEROing the gauge and filled the line again with ~.2 gallon. At the end of the process, the fill valve is closed and the vent is opened (well away). My local filler used a low loss valve, very little vapor loss upon disconnect.

LP is generally not under extreme pressure, in my back yard it may reach ~200psig on a 110F afternoon, adding pump pressure would still not make it extreme, today @ 45F it is well under 100 psig. It is not a freezing liquid either, it is generally ambient temperature. It does absorb energy when vaporized just like sweat.

All states regulate propane, 49 have adopted various version of NFPA 58, AR has their own set of regulations. DOT does regulate its movement (in commerce).

We'll just have to wait and see this 'self serve' gadgetry!

[Kayteg1]

beemerphile1 wrote:
Updated OP

It does sound like "self-serve propane-filling station" but I have seen it too many times - journalist writing article on the subject he is completely unqualified for.
In Europe lot of cars drive on propane, but they have different fill system. I wonder if in some locations they do self-serve.