SiO2 white paper anyone??

[3_tons]

I’ve been trying in earnest to obtain an independently sourced (e.g. impartial, non-vendor sourced) White Paper study that explains (empirically) the operating characteristics of SiO2 battery technology, but heretofore after several search tries and forum request (to SiO2 advocates), have been left empty handed...

I do however believe that SiO2 batteries may be second to none in extreme weather applications (i.e. utility applications) and possibly suitable in general service applications as well...

Any assistance or search results regarding a empirical White Paper are much appreciated 🙂 .......(please, no conjecture...)

3 tons

[3_tons]

“I don’t think that it’s all a scam”...

Nor do I, no doubt SiO2 exist to fill a particular market niche, and it’s only reasonable that it shares a fair amount of overlap with other battery recipes...Had at the right price, could be ‘just the ticket’ for folks like PT 🙂

3 tons

[3_tons]

“ The Victron ISTR has an automatic "sync" for when it thinks the batts are full. This is where monitors get out of whack for whatever reason, so a cross check is useful. I don't trust automatic anything”

I agree, due to the lack of necessity to preform BMS cell balancing with each and every charge cycle, auto-sync’s can occasionally be few and far between, thus (due to habits) the potential exist for SOC drift...However the re-sync is based on programmed charged parameters having been met and thereafter occurs only after a several minute holding period - It’s with this in mind, and having 3 separate-source digital voltage readouts, that the Victron has so far proven reliable...No regrets ditching the former LinkLite, as the detailed smart phone windows and cycle historicity are truly outstanding...

3 tons, where the SUN usually Shines and Solar matters - lol

[BFL13]

ISTR "Lead Crystal" is a Trademark name, not sure about "SiO2" but they are the same battery "type". The blurbs say they are different from regular AGMs in the way they describe and that is why they are different from AGMs in how they act.

I don't think it is all a scam. what would be the point of that unless it helped "Sales" bring in more buyers? There is no sales campaign that I can spot (which was pointed out) Maybe they have enough domestic consumption that they don't need to export them. Don't know, not my problem.

If you want to see a sales campaign in action to convince everyone they can't live without this new thing remember The Music Man show. Hmmm reminds me of something. 🙂

[3_tons]

FWC wrote:
Weird, it seems that Azimuth Solar seems to think they are the same:
Lead Crystal / SiO2 batteries

Unless I’m missing something, from all that I can tell SiO2 is the molecular definition for ordinary beach sand (or silica, which has ionic-transfer friendly lattice-crystallin structure), lead, and I believe some sort of mediating electrolyte, presumably an AGM like sulfuric acid paste (Though it’s not exactly clear to me why the purpose for the silica?)...Thus the interchangeable monikers of SiO2 and Lead Crystal.

Might be interesting to do a deeper dig to understand how all the physics differs from FLA, but SiO2’s exist for a valid reason - my ‘best guess’ is that this particular recipe results in an ionic-transfer ripe, freeze resistant battery...

But I could be wrong...

3 tons

[BFL13]

Even so I would not really trust any monitor that shows SOC. I like to cross-check anything I can to see if it reads right. I use resting battery voltage tables for SOC to cross check the AH count for SOC to see if they "match' within reason.

The Victron ISTR has an automatic "sync" for when it thinks the batts are full. This is where monitors get out of whack for whatever reason, so a cross check is useful. I don't trust automatic anything.

It is like a digital voltmeter that starts to show higher voltage when its battery gets low. It is insidious so you don't notice it is getting off -kilter until you get a cross check with a different voltmeter.

[3_tons]

BFL13 wrote:
Perhaps it was due to charge efficiency? The Trimetric uses 94% for 6% average heat losses across the SOC range . ISTR it was posted here that Bogart recommends using 99% with LFP? So if the Xantrex one is like that, it would get out of whack with the LFP.

Eg, when the LFP has taken 100% of what it was down, and 1% of that was heat, the monitor should show AH restored as 99. With the FLA, it would show 94% restored.

The Trimetric has a way to set the charging efficiency factor to something else instead of 94 if you find it is not right for your set-up

BLF, That’s a dang Good point you make, as I just checked the online set-up instructions and there is no programmable setting for charge efficiency (huh?), so this may be why it was inept at tracking SOC! - I’ll accept this as ‘mystery solved’ and with a spare meter at rest on the shelf...But much prefer the Victron’s detailed smart phone display anyway - a much more informative and cogent display...

3 tons, living freely in the battery format ‘co-exist zone’ 🙂

[BFL13]

Perhaps it was due to charge efficiency? The Trimetric uses 94% for 6% average heat losses across the SOC range . ISTR it was posted here that Bogart recommends using 99% with LFP? So if the Xantrex one is like that, it would get out of whack with the LFP.

Eg, when the LFP has taken 100% of what it was down, and 1% of that was heat, the monitor should show AH restored as 99. With the FLA, it would show 94% restored.

The Trimetric has a way to set the charging efficiency factor to something else instead of 94 if you find it is not right for your set-up

[3_tons]

FWC, for whatever reason when I made the switch from two GC sixers to LiFePo4, my otherwise faithful Xantrex LinkLite SOC meter couldn’t accurately follow the LFP’s SOC, nor is LFP mentioned in the Xantrex instructions...Not sure about trimetric (et al) but I’m glad switching over to Victron’s BMV 712 made the difference (plus added bluetooth)..Must be an algorithm thingy I suppose (??)...This is why I was curious about meter compatibility with SiO2’s which I’m not sure is a given...However, the voltage curves may be more similar to FLA...

3 tons

[BFL13]

FWC wrote:
I would respond with 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence', and so far we have essentially no evidence.

I am glad your batteries are working out for you. So far the only data we have is what you presented, and those tests show the batteries not even coming close to meeting their specifications. This doesn't matter for your use, but it should be yet another red flag.

If you are still on about that 1.3 Peukert, my numbers were with with my particular wiring set, which adds to battery R and all that. I don't think you can use my numbers for a Peukert test of the battery alone--my wiring gets in the way I think. Also would need to do several runs to get "repeatablity".

[FWC]

I would respond with 'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence', and so far we have essentially no evidence.

I am glad your batteries are working out for you. So far the only data we have is what you presented, and those tests show the batteries not even coming close to meeting their specifications. This doesn't matter for your use, but it should be yet another red flag.

[BFL13]

You have to choose something and see how it works out. It is better when you can get testimonials and data that are credible (to you) when choosing.

On SiO2s, I don't know how true the available info is. I will find out as time goes on I guess. I am not worried though. They are doing what I expected from the info I saw so far.

Nobody else is being pushed to buy them, at least not by me! All they are is a (claimed) better sort of AGM for the reasons they give as to what they can do that regular AGMs can't.

I don't see where it would be a choice between SiO2 vs LFP any more than between AGM or FLA vs LFP. Horses for courses!

[FWC]

pianotuna wrote:

FWC wrote:
About a decade ago I was woking on a project to run a network of instruments in the Arctic that needed to run over the polar night, powered by batteries charged by wind and solar.

So what type of battery was finally chosen?

Where were the instruments placed?

We tried two options, Deka AGM, and Saft Lithium Ion with super-capacitors for load leveling. Both worked well, but the lithium ion was about 1/10 the weight which saves a huge amount on aircraft costs.

Stations were installed around Summit Camp in Greenland.

[3_tons]

To be sure (having no first-hand experience myself...), this thread was intended to help those in pursuit of more information on SiO2’s...

Note, “Choosing the correct battery for the application and the correct charge current is critical to maintaining the batteries chemistry and capacity”....

As for me 🙂 when considering the vagaries of solar charging at a narrow specified amperage (or voltage ?) would seem problematic, thus not a very good fit - JMHO

https://4127787.app.netsuite.com/core/media/media.nl?id=152401&c=4127787&h=f1482ffb7fc7d03eb9da&_xt=.pdf&chrole=17&promocode=&promocodeaction=overwrite&sj=KlojnkbcArdN8ZTyvaLslA82H%3B1561888626%3B666000000

However, I make no arguments as to their (as purported) uber suitability in cold weather applications - likely a good fit !!

3 tons, in the High NV Desert...

[Itinerant1]

BFL13 wrote:

3 tons wrote:
Ha, you’ve seem to omit the following from my above aforementioned quote as follows:

(Per) “Vendor Betta’s sage Advisory”...

Context matters!...So are we to assume your dismissal of adherence to Betta’s Advisory??

3 tons in RealVille

Not at all. They discuss how soon the batt will suffer and what that depends on and if you don't get to 100% often enough. The advice to get to 100% monthly is presumably a time chosen to be often enough so they are not ruined from that.

Don't you also have to get to 100% every so often with LFPs (although for a different reason), so you still have to keep an eye on things when on solar to some extent, and not be "passive" for too long?

"IF" the cells are unbalanced "maybe". LFP aren't required to have long drawn out charge/ equalization. No need to go down the NOVA again. 😉