SiO2 white paper anyone??

[3_tons]

I’ve been trying in earnest to obtain an independently sourced (e.g. impartial, non-vendor sourced) White Paper study that explains (empirically) the operating characteristics of SiO2 battery technology, but heretofore after several search tries and forum request (to SiO2 advocates), have been left empty handed...

I do however believe that SiO2 batteries may be second to none in extreme weather applications (i.e. utility applications) and possibly suitable in general service applications as well...

Any assistance or search results regarding a empirical White Paper are much appreciated 🙂 .......(please, no conjecture...)

3 tons

[pianotuna]

FWC wrote:
About a decade ago I was woking on a project to run a network of instruments in the Arctic that needed to run over the polar night, powered by batteries charged by wind and solar.

So what type of battery was finally chosen?

Where were the instruments placed?

[FWC]

Warning this is a long story as to why I am overly passionate about this stuff....

About a decade ago I was woking on a project to run a network of instruments in the Arctic that needed to run over the polar night, powered by batteries charged by wind and solar. We of course looked at all the available batteries to power these, and during that research noticed 'Lead Crystal' batteries which looked super promising. We did a bunch of digging into these and discovered much of what I have been talking about here, made in China etc. We wanted to order ~100 batteries so we contacted the vendor with some questions and asked for some details - they were unable to answer relatively basic questions and unable to provide much of any actual test data. We quickly realized there was something amiss, and moved on.

Jump forward 10 years, I have a small RV with a DIY battery and I am a lurker on this forum, reading occasionally. About a year ago I notice the talk about these new 'SiO2' batteries that sound really good. I am surprised I have not heard of them, so I do some research, quickly realize these are the same old 'Lead Crystal' as before with a new name and new marketing. I say oh well, and move on. But then I notice they are being pushed really hard on the forum, and the narrative is moving from should I choose between FLA, AGM or LiFePO4, to should I choose between LiFePO4 or 'SiO2'. People actually start buying these things, and there is a bunch of marketing mumbo-jumbo being passed of as fact without much fundamental knowledge if energy storage or how these work. This is what motivated me to sign up and try and point out the massive holes in all these claims.

Sorry for the rant.

[BFL13]

3 tons wrote:
Ha, you’ve seem to omit the following from my above aforementioned quote as follows:

(Per) “Vendor Betta’s sage Advisory”...

Context matters!...So are we to assume your dismissal of adherence to Betta’s Advisory??

3 tons in RealVille

Not at all. They discuss how soon the batt will suffer and what that depends on and if you don't get to 100% often enough. The advice to get to 100% monthly is presumably a time chosen to be often enough so they are not ruined from that.

Don't you also have to get to 100% every so often with LFPs (although for a different reason), so you still have to keep an eye on things when on solar to some extent, and not be "passive" for too long?

[3_tons]

Read into it whatever you wish (folks often do 🙂 ), but from my perspective one should casually dismiss (or edit out !!) Betta’s charging advisory at their own peril, meaning reduced longevity...Were this me, charging via solar harvesting would no longer remain a passive activity...

3 tons

[3_tons]

Ha, you’ve seem to omit the following from my above aforementioned quote as follows:

(Per) “Vendor Betta’s sage Advisory”...

Context matters!...So are we to assume your dismissal of adherence to Betta’s Advisory??

3 tons in RealVille

[BFL13]

3 tons wrote:
In the interest of discovery, it appears that SiO2’s charging parameters may for many rule out the solar harvesting option... On a different note, I’m not sure whether a standard SOC meter (with FLA algos) would be compatible with SiO2 or not?? (I’ve not found any info)...I emailed this question to a popular vendor but as of yet have have not received a response (so much for email format I suppose 🙂 )

3 tons

The AH counting battery monitor doesn't care. An AH is an AH. You do have to use the battery's own volt/SOC table though.

The story is you can leave the SiO2 undercharged for say a month, no harm, and then do a proper charge to 100%, something like the regime with LFPs.

So if the solar shallow cycling and lower amps or whatever is not getting them full every day and with enough amps, it shouldn't matter much, as long as you do the 100% every so often.

However, it would matter with regular AGMs not getting to full every day because they would sulphate. In that case you have to get them to 100% more often before the sulphate hardens so you can do a "recondition" overcharge with the AGMs (carefully since they are sealed batts)

SiO2 with solar should be good for that reason, like LFPs, where they do not have to get up to 100% each cycle or else sulphate.

If you charge them at 15 amps instead of 25 amps but get them to 14.5v every time, then how many lifetime cycles do you lose? would be the question I guess, but that is the same question for ordinary AGMs.

[FWC]

3 tons wrote:
In the interest of discovery (i.e. vendor Betta’s sage advisory...), it appears that SiO2’s charging parameters may for many rule out the solar harvesting option... On a different note, I’m not sure whether a standard SOC meter (with FLA algos) would be compatible with SiO2 or not?? (I’ve not found any info)...I emailed this question to a popular vendor but as of yet have have not received a response (so much for email format I suppose 🙂 )

3 tons

The battery monitors (assuming coulomb counting like Victron) don't care what the chemistry is, they just count energy (or current) in and out and keep a running total, so they should work just fine. There maybe some tweaking needed to get a reasonable SOC estimate, but I am sure it is good enough.

[FWC]

Matt_Colie wrote:
I am currently researching Firefly's carbon foam technology for a client's replacement house bank. It looks real good in that the recover from 0%SOC is possible, but I have more study to do before I advise and write a quote. They seem to be a technical upgrade of AGM. Unfortunately, that is about all I know at this time.

Matt

Unlike SiO2, there is actually some independent research and validation of general carbon-foam electrode lead acid chemistry, and there is a clear documentation of what it is and how it works.

Carbon foam research

However, it seems like a really narrow set of circumstances where the cost differential would make it worth it relative to commodity FLA or AGM batteries, or the performance differential would work relative to LiFePO4. But maybe the specific application falls into this niche.

[3_tons]

In the interest of discovery (i.e. vendor Betta’s sage advisory...), it appears that SiO2’s charging parameters may for many rule out the solar harvesting option... On a different note, I’m not sure whether a standard SOC meter (with FLA algos) would be compatible with SiO2 or not?? (I’ve not found any info)...I emailed this question to a popular vendor but as of yet have have not received a response (so much for email format I suppose 🙂 )

3 tons

[BFL13]

Matt_Colie wrote:
I am currently researching Firefly's carbon foam technology for a client's replacement house bank. It looks real good in that the recover from 0%SOC is possible, but I have more study to do before I advise and write a quote. They seem to be a technical upgrade of AGM. Unfortunately, that is about all I know at this time.

Matt

This discussion might help with that somewhat. it starts with some mention of Firefly and whether SiO2s would work, etc. the second page is also interesting.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/silicon-dioxide-batteries-45315.html

These guys sell both types and this link opens with a comparison chart. They have a blurb on each type in that type's section too if that helps any.

http://azimuthsolar.ca/product-category/batteries/

[Matt_Colie]

I am currently researching Firefly's carbon foam technology for a client's replacement house bank. It looks real good in that the recover from 0%SOC is possible, but I have more study to do before I advise and write a quote. They seem to be a technical upgrade of AGM. Unfortunately, that is about all I know at this time.

Matt

[BFL13]

Thanks guys, I was wrong about that! An SiO2 is a "modified AGM" is one way to look at it. I forgot that AGMs also require at least 20% charging rates in the Bulk Stage. At 27 amp max amps, that means Bulk will end at about 75% SOC. (it ends about 10% SOC higher with SiO2 according to my testing)

So to do an AGM right, you need your 27 amps/100AH to be at least a 20% charging rate when starting at below 75% SOC. That needs to get the batt to the proper spec 14.x Vabs for that AGM.

So it is the same with solar for AGMs trying to meet the AGM specs as it is with SiO2.

[3_tons]

According to Betta Batteries Soi2 Advisory - Note “Correct Size Charger” requirement (includes Solar):

“WHAT CAN HAPPEN IF UNDERCHARGED”

If Betta Batteries Lead Crystal? Batteries are not charged with the correct amount of charge current the Batteries can reduce in capacity and performance. There is a small amount of moisture (Electrolyte) contained within the battery that moves between the positive and negative plates during charge and discharge. If insufficient charge current is used this moisture can eventually be held within the plate. Effectively reducing the electrolyte and therefore the capacity of the battery.

“DETERMINING THE LEVEL OF UNDERCHARGE”

How soon this moisture gets held within the plate will vary greatly depending on factors such as the size of the charger, the numbers of cycles, the depth of discharge and the temperature. Often, simply cycling the batteries a few times with the CORRECT SIZE CHARGER will see the battery recover in capacity. The first warning sign that things are more serious is that the voltages will climb rapidly during charging. This tends to exacerbate the undercharging as the charger will move quickly through Bulk and Absorption resulting in very little amperage going into the battery.”

Many Thanks to FWC for providing the aforementioned helpful Betta link 🙂

3 tons

[FWC]

BFL13 wrote:
You can charge the 100AH battery at the spec max of 25 amps, but you can also charge it at a lower rate no problem, just not at a higher rate. The key is to do it at the right voltage.

That is the same for other types of battery. My 100AH AGM said max amps was 27 amps at the spec charging voltage. You can charge at 15 amps if you want- it just takes longer, as long as you do the voltage.

Solar is no problem unless you have a big array and a small bank, but that is no different from many AGMs (Lifelines excepted we are told)

I can also use my 55 amp converter on them when they will only accept 35 amps, same as any battery that is up there in SOC when you start the recharge. The charger only does what the battery will accept and tapers from there.

The problem only arises when at a lower SOC the battery will accept 75 amps but the spec says 55 is max. So don't use the 75 amper, use the 55 amper.

My point was that both Betta Batteries and Green Rhino explicitly state that charging at below the optimum current will damage the batteries over time. They all appear to be selling the same batteries, which are manufactured by this company in China., but with their own label slapped on them (like the company on Alibaba).

The good news is that Green Rhino actually provides spec sheets for the batteries, the bad news is that the spec sheets say you need to charge at 0.2 - 0.3C to avoid damage. Luckily that is not an issue in your use case, but it will be an issue for anyone who wants to use these with solar.

[BFL13]

You can charge the 100AH battery at the spec max of 25 amps, but you can also charge it at a lower rate no problem, just not at a higher rate. The key is to do it at the right voltage.

That is the same for other types of battery. My 100AH AGM said max amps was 27 amps at the spec charging voltage. You can charge at 15 amps if you want- it just takes longer, as long as you do the voltage.

Solar is no problem unless you have a big array and a small bank, but that is no different from many AGMs (Lifelines excepted we are told)

I can also use my 55 amp converter on them when they will only accept 35 amps, same as any battery that is up there in SOC when you start the recharge. The charger only does what the battery will accept and tapers from there.

The problem only arises when at a lower SOC the battery will accept 75 amps but the spec says 55 is max. So don't use the 75 amper, use the 55 amper.