Small Generator Shoot-Out Results

[BFL13]

Comparing a 2-stroke non-inverter 950w King with a 4-stroke inverter type 500w Powerhouse ( called PH from now on here)

http://www.powerhouse-products.com/powerhouse_product/500wi/

http://www.kingcanada.com/Products.htm?CD=417&ID=21759

They are similar in price so call that equal.

Each is small enough to fit in the outside storage compartment at the back of our Truck Camper, so they are equal at that. The king is wider and about an inch taller at the handle.

The King weighs more than the PH --40 vs 21 lbs but both are easy to carry even with fuel in them, so not an issue for me, so equal at that.

Obviously they are not the same watts rating so I will just post the running results on that.

Noise was the big issue. The PH was very loud (I am used to my Honda 3000, so am spoiled, but still--- 😞 ) So the question was whether the King would be any worse. King specs say 57dB, PH 65dB loaded.

I can confirm that the King is not as noisy and in fact was not too bad on the ears really. It did "hunt" a bit in revs unloaded but ran smoothly with a good load on it. The PH ran steady. King wins the noise war. Those dB specs must be right.

PH is pure sine wave and the King has more of a typical non-inverter gen waveform for 120v output, so they are not equal for running things that badly need PSW, but most things will be ok. (EDIT--corrected that based on DrewE's post)

I only want a small gen to run a battery charger, and the more amps the better, but noise is a big issue.

The PH 500 ran the Vector/B&D charger and so did the King. Those Vectors do not need PSW. However they will not give full amps with the MSW if the loaded voltage sags--but they keep running at some level of amps.

Kill-A-Watt used to measure output of each gen. The numbers are shown as what they were, no intention to compete- just to compare, since they are different watt size gens.

PH Unloaded voltage- 120.8v King unloaded voltage 122.5v

A. PH with Vector charger at 20 amps (near max load for the 500 PH)

118.4v, 4.36a, 322w, 516VA, 59.9 hz (steady) PF 0.65 DC out-21.0a

B. King with Vector charger at 40 amps (near max for the 800w continuous King.)

99.8v, 7.29a, 543w, 715VA, 59.4hz (varies slightly), PF 0.76 DC out 38a

The King started with full Vector amps of 40.4 but quickly sagged in output voltage and the Vector amps tapered with that, until it settled about as above.

The 2 stroke has a slightly smoky exhaust--lots at first then not much when running, but does not need any oil. The 4 stroke had clean exhaust but needs 15W40 oil.

Both were hard to get started today at 32F. "Starting spray" (ether?) down the spark plug hole helped with the King for that.

[BFL13]

deleted to new thread.

[MrWizard]

Barry that just so funny :B :S

[BFL13]

Good info thanks. Noted.

Trying to start from cold the pull doesn't seem very tight, but after spraying in the starter and replacing the plug, the pull is very tight and is a hard short tug, but it fires right up on that pull. You really have to brace against the gen to not pull it over while tugging the rope. Then lots of smoke which goes away as it warms up. Warmed up and running no smoke.

Side note--This is nothing like the first time I got involved with a pull cord start. Big old riding lawnmower. Guy showed me how to start it with its pull rope you got out of its tool box. You had to wind it around a pulley and tug. Started first time when he did it.

My turn--no way, pulled it many times got really frustrated thought my arms would fall off. Then another guy did it --first time started! Then I noticed he wound the rope around the other way from my way. Hmmmm. So I tried it winding it the other way around and bam-it started first pull. Arghhh! It was me being left-handed so I just naturally wound it around the other way and that was the problem. 😞

[MrWizard]

i used to do a lot of 2 stroke honda moped repair, rebuild, hop up etc..
iron cast cylinder with aluminum piston

remove the exhaust, soak in safety solvent, blow out in reverse with compressed air (air in the tail pipe)

but back on the engine and let it run until all the smoke is gone
when first started it will smoke like a fog machine
great way to kill backyard mosquitoes

amisol or other synthetic 2 stroke oil, leaves NO carbon in the cylinder or exhaust
over oiling with cheap oil clogs up everything with carbon

since it is hard to start, even with starting fluid
there are two possible problems
sticky reed valves from fuel varnish
and carbon in the head which absorbs what little fuel is getting through
all depends on how hours of run time, low hours is probably sticky reed valves
lots of hours could be carbon or both

[TomG2]

Not knowing the hours on the generator leaves open the possibility that it was not or is not broken in properly. Some require up to 25 hours of break in time.

[BFL13]

Thanks.

I am learning more how it works as I go along. It does that rum,rum,rum hunting with the charger at 20 amps, but is steady at 4 amps and 10 amps and around 30 amps on up. Just that zone around 20 amps it hunts like that.

Hard to start from cold--have to spray some starter down the spark plug hole even with the new spark plug. This King was built in July 2014 it says on it. No info on how used it is.

It is running a little better today after running through the old gas mix and some SeaFoam. All looking good so far.

[RLS7201]

You can clean up that smokey King by using Amsoil 100-1 2-cycle oil. I've been using it since 1979 in all my 2-strokes, including my dirt bikes, with no failures. The initial price of a quart is startling but do the math and you'll find it no more expensive than running 32 or 50-1 premix.
Also, when you run less oil through the main jet, you get more gas, which means a slightly richer A/F ratio. That may help with the RPM hunting, lean roll.
In my 175cc dirt bike, I had to reduce the main jet one size when I change from 50-1 to 100-1 premix.

Richard

PS: many thanks for all your various battery/inverter/converter research and sharing.

[BFL13]

My best bet is to go "all RJ" (never mind that he actually has dozens of various meters scattered around in his rig), and never use the Kill-a-Watt ever again. Ignorance is bliss.

If the King sounds like it is running nicely, and the Vector is cranking out steady amps, that's all I need to know! 🙂

[MrWizard]

I think if you had them on an oscilloscope, you would see a smoother slope/curve from the PH, ( until you zoomed in on the digital micro s stepping of the wave form) but also a higher voltage peak which is the reason for the lower PF reading

While the king is a true synchronous rotating mass generator, the peak voltage is not as high, but the magnetic field and current are more evenly distributed, over the power cycle
Just my opinion

[BFL13]

I returned the Powerhouse. Not a hit against that gen as such, but the King will do the job for me I expect.

I got the new spark plug and some Seafoam, so the plan is to put that in the gas that's in there now and let it run till it runs out of gas. Then I'll put my own new gas mix in and carry on from there.

The fun has just begun! 🙂

Meanwhile I guess we learned some more about dBs and un-learned some more about VA and PF. Oh well, as long as we can still go camping. 🙂

[TomG2]

To the OP; Thanks for the information and the testing. The alternates may not work for you, as some keep saying, but it is your nickel and your time. It also may be that you get nearly one hundred percent of the performance necessary for twenty percent of the price. I am NOT saying that you are getting the best generator in the world for pennies on the dollar, just that you might be happy with your bargain models.

[BFL13]

I have had no issues running my converters on MSW. They don't care. That includes the Parallax 7355 when I forget to turn it off when on inverter. 🙂

OK, I got things set up again and ran the King with the 40 amper at its 20 amp setting to check out the Kill-A-Watt results at that power draw from the King. 122.8 unloaded

114v, 3.44a, 300w, 387VA, 60.1 Hz, PF 0.78 (was 0.76 at DC 38amps) On the inverter-gen it was:

118v, 4.36a, 322w, 516VA, 59.9 Hz, PF 0.65

So I have no clue what is going on with that. I thought I had a handle on all this VA and PF business, but not anymore 😞 the watts seems to come out right for the charger specs though, in these and the previous examples

The King didn't like running the Vector at only 20 amps. The engine hunted up and down the whole time going "rum, rum, rum, rum" and also there was some knocking or banging in there too.

As soon as I changed to the 40 amp setting, the Vector ramped up the amps and when passing through 30 amps, the King's engine steadied and kept steady while the Vector finished reaching 40 amps. Then it settled back down to about 37.5 amps and the King settled at about 100 volts and was running like it should IMO.

I will have to learn more about that with experience. When charging the Vector will eventually start to taper amps, so I wouldn't like to hear that engine starting to hunt once amps got below 30.

I need a new spark plug and my own gas mixture in there, some Sea Foam and all that, to get past the unknowns from it being a used one. Then I will know if this is all normal or what.

If I didn't have the Kill-A-Watt, I wouldn't know the voltage sag and would not be concerned! ( RJ's philosophy 🙂 It sounds great running at 99 volts!

[MrWizard]

It's only for occasional use
And not a lash up, for regular use
The king would let him recharge a little faster
But my choice would be the the power house and 20 amp charge

[time2roll]

MrWizard wrote:
#1 .. The taller Honda will not fit the storage space

BFL13 wrote:
So that recommendation includes getting a bigger storage compartment in the Truck Camper, or shooting a dog or two, so there is room enough for the Honda. 🙂

Yes I would find another spot for the Honda. Rear bumper, rear box, attach to ladder, under the sink, front mount, roof rack, in the cab or virtually anything else before I started to monkey with either of those other two in an attempt to cobble something together.