The Official unofficial CPE 2000i Generator Thread

[pritch272]

8/1/2010 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: Champion Inverter and Remote Gens Promo on CPE's web site)

3/22/2011 edit: Thread renamed ...
Renamed from: Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread

3/23/2011 edit: Thread renamed at the suggestion of the Professor.
Renamed from: (Un)Official CPE 2000 Watt Inverter Generator Thread

Inverter Available August 2010



Remote Available July 2010

[-_dwh_-]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:

-=dwh=- wrote:

His 55a WFCO charger went straight to constant current bulk stage and didn't overload the generator.

The prof might be one of the <10% of WFCO users that has adequate battery wiring to kick the WFCO converter into its 14.4 volt mode, but the other 90+% of WFCO users never have greater than the 13.6 volt converter output. For generator charging, they'd be better off with a single-stage Magnetek at 13.8. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, just pointing out that the Prof's WFCO installation is not representative of most. My relative new motorhome is an example of the typical WFCO installation, where the charge voltage never once exceeded 13.6 until I swapped in a PD for the WFCO. As for pampering the batteries, when I'm in the boonies charging with the generator, I'm willing to sacrifice some battery life to reduce the generator run time.

On the one hand, you say the problem is inadequate wiring, on the other hand you say it's the converter.

I must say, that I find it hard to believe that the vast majority of WFCO 3-stage chargers just magically never go into bulk stage. In truth, I don't believe it.


In any case, I think the relevant point is that the CPE inverter gen will run a 55a 3-stage charger in bulk stage, but won't run an 80a charger in bulk stage.


But...there was something in the Professor's test results which didn't jibe - but I couldn't figure out exactly what it was. Having slept on it, now I know what it was that didn't seem quite right...I'll try to describe it...


Connect CPE to 80a PD converter/charger.
Push button for "boost mode" (bulk stage).
CPE overloads.

Okay - why does the CPE overload? Because the converter/charger is trying to pull enough current to do a constant current 80a bulk charge on the battery (that's the theory anyway).

Then...

Connect CPE to 80a PD converter/charger.
Allow PD to do a constant voltage charge for one hour.
Push button for "booost mode" (bulk stage).
CPE does not overload.


Now here's the thing - that should not have worked.


Multi-stage chargers operate in two modes. They operate as constant current chargers in bulk stage, and then they operate as constant voltage chargers in the absorption and float stages.

When the button is pushed to put the PD into bulk stage, the converter/charger should be trying to drive 80a into the battery. It should raise its output voltage however high is required to get 80a to flow, and keep doing that until the battery voltage reaches 14.4v, at which point it switches to constant voltage mode and holds at 13.6v. After 30 hours, still in constant voltage mode, it will drop the voltage to 13.2v for float stage.

That is in fact how an Iota converter/charger behaves with the IQ/4 module installed, though it stays in bulk stage until the battery reaches 14.8v or 4 hours, whichever comes first. It then does absorb stage at 14.2v for 8 hours before dropping to float at 13.6v.


Now...here's the rub.

If the PD actually behaved like a proper mult-stage charger, then when you hit the boost button, it should switch into constant current mode and pump out 80a until the battery reaches 14.4v. That should happen any time that button is pushed if the battery is below 14.4v.

But that's not what happened in the Professor's test. That's what was niggling at the back of my mind. A mystery!

So, I decided to look into it. I can't find a manual online for the charge wizard, but the PD 9200 series has the charge wizard built-in and I can find a manual for that:

http://www.progressivedyn.com/PD9200_Manual.pdf

And what did I discover?

That the PD is NOT a true multi-stage charger! It doesn't DO constant current at all. What is actually is, is simply a multi-VOLTAGE charger. What PD calls multple "modes" is actually just multiple voltages - 14.4v, 13.6v, 13.2v.

Aha! So that's what happened! When the Professor hit the boost button, the PD increased its output voltage to 14.4v, which cause SOME extra amps to flow into the batteries - however NOT the full 80a that a real constant current charger would have pumped out.

A constant voltage charger simply raises the bus voltage to a certain point, and then allows the battery to absorb however much current can overcome the battery's internal resistance.

So when the Professor first pushed the button to switch the PD to 14.4v, enough current flowed into the batteries to overload the CPE. After an hour at 13.6v, the batteries had absorbed enough that when the PD bumped up the bus voltage to 14.4v, it really made no significant difference in how much current was flowing to the batteries - and thus the CPE did not overload.

Mystery solved.


So, while I was at it, I decided to look into the WFCO as well. The only WFCO unit I saw that is rated at 55a is the 9800 series (dunno exactly which unit the Professor has but he did say it was 55a). I found a manual online for the WFCO 9800 series:

http://www.wfcoelectronics.com/documentation/manuals/Manual%20-%20WF-9800%20English.pdf


And what did I discover? That it is also a multi-voltage charger that also does not do constant current charging. It operates the same as the PD - by simply adjusting the voltage that it outputs to the bus.

So the significant difference in why one would work from the CPE and not the other really has nothing to do with their max amperage ratings. The determiniing factor is how much the battery bank can absorb at a certain bus voltage.

The bigger bank could absorb more amperage initially, and that's what popped the CPE into overload.


For reference, here is the manual for the Iota IQ/4 control module:

http://www.iotaengineering.com/pplib/IQ4manual.pdf

Where it says (last page):

"BULK STAGE - During this state, the charger will operate either at Full Current output or Constant Voltage output depending on the discharged state of the battery. A discharged battery will dictate the voltage and force the charger into constant current operation. As the battery charges, the charger transitions to a constant-voltage operation. This BULK STAGE will continue for either 225 minutes or until the battery voltage reaches the “High Trigger” value (whichever occurs first). At this point, the BULK STAGE will operate for another 15 minutes before switching to the ABSORPTION STAGE.

ABSORPTION STAGE - This state is limited to 480 minutes (8 hours) during which the charger will operate either at Full Current output or Constant Voltage output depending on the discharged state of the battery. During Full Current output, the charger is providing its full current rating and will slowly increase the battery voltage to the “Absorption Stage” voltage. At the end of the 480 minutes, the charger will revert to the FLOAT STAGE.

FLOAT STAGE - This charge state holds the batteries at Constant Voltage for a period not longer than seven days. During this state, the charger not only floats the batteries, but it can also provide load current up its maximum rating for other loads without depleting the battery capacity. The FLOAT STAGE will end when either the battery voltage drops below the “Low Trigger” point or at the end of seven days when the IQ4 initiates an equalization stage to remove sulfate layers from the battery plates. In either situation, the unit exits the FLOAT STAGE and enters the BULK STAGE."



That's the correct behavior for a proper multi-stage charger.

As far as I can tell from the online documentation and the product manuals, neither the PD nor the WFCO does constant current charging at all.

Thus they are not true multi-stage chargers. What they actually are, are variable voltage power supplies.



EDIT: Forgot to make links clickable. Fixed.

EDIT 2: For additional reference, here is the manual for a Samlex SEC series converter/charger. This is the unit I have decided to buy to replace the old Schumacher battery charger in my camper:

http://www.samlexamerica.com/customer_support/pdf/Manuals/SEC-1215A_SEC-1230A_SEC-2415A_Switch_Manua...

Note that on Page 4 it says:

"STAGE 1 - CONSTANT CURRENT OR BULK CHARGE STAGE
When the battery is low, it will try to draw larger charging current. The charger senses the current draw and limits this to the maximum permissible value (15A for SEC-1215A / SEC-2415A and 30A for SEC-1230A). Bulk charging takes place at this constant current. In this condition of constant current, the voltage measured at the charger or battery terminals will be the battery's own voltage. The constant current injected into the battery starts restoring the battery capacity and it's voltage starts rising. When this voltage approaches the threshold of battery "gassing", termed "boost or absorption voltage", the charger automatically switches over to Stage 2 - "Boost or Absorption Stage". The value of this voltage depends upon the type of battery being charged (See Dip Switch Settings). By this time, approximately 80% of the battery capacity will normally have been restored (Note: The percentage capacity restored till the point the battery reaches the boost or absorption voltage is inversely proportional to the value of the bulk charge current.)

STAGE 2 - CONSTANT VOLTAGE BOOST OR ABSORPTION STAGE
As explained above, when the battery voltage approaches the point where battery "gassing" can begin, the charger automatically switches over to the "Boost or Absorption Stage". The charger applies a constant voltage whose value depends upon the type of battery selected ( See Dip Switch Settings ). This controlled overcharge restores the balance 20% of the capacity in a minimum amount of time. As the capacity is fully restored, the charging current starts reducing. When the current reduces below the preset threshold, the charger automatically switches to the "Float or Maintenance Stage".

STAGE 3 - CONSTANT VOLTAGE, FLOAT OR MAINTENANCE CHARGING STAGE
As explained above, as the charging current drops below the preset threshold ( 1.5 to 2 amps for SEC-1215A / SEC-2415A and 2.5 A to 3 A for SEC-1230A ), it signals that the battery is 100% charged. In this "Float or Maintenance Charging Stage", the charger outputs a constant voltage of 13.5 V for 12 V system and 27 V for 24 V system. This helps in maintaining 100% capacity of the battery and also compensates for self discharge. The battery can remain connected in this stage indefinitely without the risk of overcharging or excessive loss of electrolyte."

[Old___Slow]

Hybridhunter wrote:

professor95 wrote:
.......
I personally believe it is prudent to note that CPE is agreeing to do something that it is not required under warranty to do. They (like other manufacturers) have the right to make running changes in design without obligation to upgrade older models (unless it is a safety or emissions issue). They are doing the exchange only because they want their customers to be happy. It is beginning to look like it could all backfire on them. Time will tell if they are going to be the good guys or not.

I wish I could say more or give a better reason. Your non-response numbers for your calls and e-mails are not typical of this company.

Keep customers happy? What? I would have just returned the thing and forgotten about it. I am not going to end up happy waiting for a fix to a silly problem after I have waited for a month.

And they are obligated because I agreed to not return the generators upon receiving the suggestion that I could try the control board with the longer delay.
I should have just returned it, I have no use for playing games, email tag, and ultimately what? Run me past the date where I can expect to return them?

Communication is all I am expecting, they should keep me in the loop.
I deal with many companies and buy lots of "stuff".
As an example I broke the clip on my Otterbox phone holder a week after my generator issues started.....Guess what. I received my new belt clip early last week. Now that's service.

Later you posted that the Folks at Champion ended being 'good guys' and sent the modules (control boards). Some extra stuff also. Perhaps you might give us the comparison "old to new'? Did the new ones overcome the problems mentioned in previous posts?

[Old___Slow]

professor95 wrote:

roguegaston wrote:
Here is an interesting comparison video between the Honda and the CPE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyB3w_tJxYY

I will be saving up for the Honda after viewing this video.

Jason

I thought this thread was a CPE2000i information and user result thread - not a CPE2000i against a Honda thread.

I have noticed numerous times that posts on this thread, state the 'Champion 2000i' is half the price of the 'Honda EU2000i' :?

[Wayne_Dohnal]

-=dwh=- wrote:

His 55a WFCO charger went straight to constant current bulk stage and didn't overload the generator.

The prof might be one of the <10% of WFCO users that has adequate battery wiring to kick the WFCO converter into its 14.4 volt mode, but the other 90+% of WFCO users never have greater than the 13.6 volt converter output. For generator charging, they'd be better off with a single-stage Magnetek at 13.8. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, just pointing out that the Prof's WFCO installation is not representative of most. My relative new motorhome is an example of the typical WFCO installation, where the charge voltage never once exceeded 13.6 until I swapped in a PD for the WFCO. As for pampering the batteries, when I'm in the boonies charging with the generator, I'm willing to sacrifice some battery life to reduce the generator run time.

[-_dwh_-]

Wayne Dohnal wrote:
Another result that's surfaced in this thread is how the PD converters, in spite of whatever flaws they have, are the best choice with a small generator.

I don't think so.

Letting the PD sit there in constant voltage mode to bring up the battery voltage before hitting the "boost" button to cause it to go into bulk stage constant current charging is a neat trick, but I think it's a disadvantage.

If the Prof had a smaller charger than that 80a unit, it would have been able to kick directly into constant current bulk stage and would have gotten more amps into the battery in a shorter time than letting the 80a charger idle in constant voltage mode for an hour.

His 55a WFCO charger went straight to constant current bulk stage and didn't overload the generator.

As I see it - for running off a small generator - a fully-automatic 55a charger would be a better choice than an 80a charger that you have to let idle for an hour and then manually kick into bulk stage.



There is also the batteries to consider...

Most battery manufactures recommend that charge current be around 10-15% of the battery's 20hr amp*hour rating. If someone had batteries with that spec - such as Trojans - then an 80a constant current charger would be the right size for a 600-800ah battery bank. For a battery bank of less capacity, the 80a charger would likely be too much charger anyway.

(Yes, I know some batteries, in particular some AGMs can handle larger charging currents. The Optima and Concorde AGMs effectively have no charge current limit as long as you watch the temps so as to not to overheat the batteries.)

[DSchmidt_2000]

professor95 wrote:

Poor Costco. If that was the dude's motivation - believing the store will take anything back

Don't read anything into what the guys motivation was - that statement from me was that if it didn't work out for his needs he could return it no problem. I didn't mean to suggest he did this soley to do the testing for the video and then return it.

[Wayne_Dohnal]

I thought this thread was a CPE2000i information and user result thread - not a CPE2000i against a Honda thread.

I think some of this is unavoidable because the Honda provides a well understood baseline for comparison. Now that the CPE2000i is being characterized pretty well, the comparisons should migrate to "Honda vs. CPE" threads of their own. I've been unable to restrain myself from posting comparisons here, and have tried to be respectful of the fact that it is a CPE thread.

I think it's pretty clear now that the CPE2000i has carved out a new power class for name-brand inverter generators (unless the Yamaha 2000 is more or less the same, which I don't know). It's similar to the situation of the Yamaha 2400 being in its own power class. While the CPE2000i isn't a Honda 2000 killer, I think it should be a pretty effective Honda 1000 killer.

Another result that's surfaced in this thread is how the PD converters, in spite of whatever flaws they have, are the best choice with a small generator. Probably anything less than the Yamaha 2400.

I don't have the twin Hondas but I've read plenty of times that when one is shut off, like if out-of-gas, the other keeps going. You can refuel the stopped unit and then restart it with no power interruption if the running unit doesn't go into overload. Possibly nobody knows what happens if they lose sync, since they sync to the power that's coming into the inverter's output, and it's "impossible" for 2 units to lose sync. When starting up, the inverter won't begin producing power unless it's able to sync itself to the existing power, if there is any.

[professor95]

DSchmidt_2000 wrote:
.

Is the paralleling of the CPE's non-trivial? Someone posted issues turning one off with the other running?

I made that posting and it was trivial. What it comes down to is once the two units are synchronized, turning off one of the two units or removing the sync cable causes the other to immediately go into overload. This is a software issue designed to kill the power if sync is lost before connected equipment is destroyed. While it was a barrier to accomplishing what I wanted (start a RV A/C with two and then turn one off allowing a single unit to sustain the A/C) it is a good equipment safety design. BTW, I can disconnect power from unit #2 and sustain the 15K BTU A/C off of one unit - I just cannot turn the engine off or disconnect the sync cable.

My use of the parallel kit with two CPE units has not indicated any operational problems that I can determine. The twins provide a heck of a lot of power - more than a 30 amp RV can use before the RV main breaker flips.

Not having a set of Honda twins with the parallel kit I do not know if the same safety feature exists. Now that I have reviewed the data, I would hope that the Honda will also turn off the units if sync is lost.

Poor Costco. If that was the dude's motivation - believing the store will take anything back - including generators bought, used and returned after the storm passes. The loss has to be paid by somebody - guess who? Fortunately, Costco keep records of who returns and how often. Too many dishonest returns can get you nothing when a honest return is necessary. I resent having to pay more for a product because people abuse such a policy.

[roguegaston]

Everyone has their own requirements...

If possible, I want to have one generator, I want it to be as small and light weight as possible, I want it to be as low noise as possible, I want it to run my PD4000 in 14.4V boost mode (when needed) and I want it to start and run my 9,000BTU A/C. From the video, the Honda could start the saw, where as the CPE could not. I am guessing that this startup may be similar to my A/C startup.

I guess I could buy the CPE from Costco, try it out and then return it if needed. However, I will probably save and purchase a Honda instead.

Jason

[DSchmidt_2000]

professor95 wrote:

Why would he buy two CPE2000i units when he had a Honda 2000i?

Since he has two (but no parallel kit - why?) he could run circles around the single Honda with the CPE units synchronized together.

Probably because he was:
- in Costco and knew he could take them back
- Costco doesn't sell parallel kits
- to answer some questions regarding the CPE2000i unit

but I'm just guessing. He did say he had the Honda for 5 years and ran it hard so maybe he's just planning for its replacement.

I'm glad people are testing things. The more the better so people wondering what to get are better informed.

Is the paralleling of the CPE's non-trivial? Someone posted issues turning one off with the other running?

His first test of the saw on the CPE was successful. The second test was off the saw's brake, which would be an extremely high current start.

What?! The saw's brake is done by shorting the motor leads. This braking is on whenever the switch is released.

Edit: I may be wrong on how the braking is done on this saw's motor - regardless I don't see how the startup current can be higher the 2nd time.

[professor95]

bruno1138 wrote:


Excellent write up professor, unfortunately, we'll have to wait a good long while to see how well the cpe 2000i stacks up against the other choices in this generator class in terms of proven longevity and reliability...

Thank you for the write-up kudos, but I am somewhat puzzled that the "proven" concern continues to pop up :@. The CPE2000i has been out a full year. Collectively, hundreds of thousands of usage hours have been logged. Mechanical failures have been virtually non-existent. The majority of problems that have been noted relate to fast overload timing and inability to sustain a true 2,000 watts. In excess of 250,000 units have been shipped in that year (not a documented number). Meanwhile units like the Honeywell have failed miserably and complaints/problems on the Generac 2000 are high. Now, if you are speaking of a five or ten year longevity comparison, we will have to wait and see 😉

[professor95]

MrWizard wrote:
I think the Professor is just talking in general
The first chinese generators did not have an RV plug,
CPE saw the market, then they brought out an electric start model, then the new model with wireless remote, then the inverter model,
Wait long enough and something new will come out,
There will probably be something new , but when?
Six months or 12 ?

DrBaker wrote:

professor95 wrote:
wait for CPE to introduce their bigger and better model(s)

I've been following this thread fairly regularly, but don't recall seeing any info on this. What sizes and improvements might we see in the future? Any ETA?

CPE is a progressive company. It is no secret that they plan on introducing models other than the current 2000i. But, like the Wiz said - no specific future model info or dates are available.

[professor95]

roguegaston wrote:
Here is an interesting comparison video between the Honda and the CPE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyB3w_tJxYY

I will be saving up for the Honda after viewing this video.

Jason

Why would he buy two CPE2000i units when he had a Honda 2000i?

Nothing new. Unless you plan on running a 12" Hitachi miter saw I sure would not forget the CPE and save $$$$ for the Honda.

Since he has two (but no parallel kit - why?) he could run circles around the single Honda with the CPE units synchronized together.

As for his statement that he did not believe the CPE would run 1600 watts - BS! The ability to easily run 1600 watts has been proven with my video tests and meters. He is just making an unsupported opinion.

His first test of the saw on the CPE was successful. The second test was off the saw's brake, which would be an extremely high current start.

Looks to me like the little machine did a pretty good job. I thought this thread was a CPE2000i information and user result thread - not a CPE2000i against a Honda thread.

[MrRchitty]

DSchmidt_2000 wrote:

roguegaston wrote:
Here is an interesting comparison video between the Honda and the CPE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyB3w_tJxYY

I will be saving up for the Honda after viewing this video.

Jason

Interesting test. Thanks!

He makes a statement without backing it up with meters at the end of the video.

We've been saying this all along. The Champion is not a Honda. Dollar for dollar the Champion is the best value. If you're gonna spend about a thousand dollars you'll get more with the Champion.

[DSchmidt_2000]

roguegaston wrote:
Here is an interesting comparison video between the Honda and the CPE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyB3w_tJxYY

I will be saving up for the Honda after viewing this video.

Jason

Interesting test. Thanks!