Theoretical vehicle Voltage regulator manipulation, update

[landyacht318]

My Alternator's voltage regulator in inside my Engine computer.

I am not always happy with the maximum voltage it chooses to allow.

My Field wires, One sees Z1 voltage( mopar) basically 13.7 to 14.9v vehicle system voltage, the other goes right to my Engine computer, both are 14 awg wiring..

Now I figure if I wanted to raise voltage I could put a resistor somewhere on this circuit.

If I wanted to reduce voltage, well, I suspect I'd have to somehow increase voltage on this field circuit.

The current voltage range allowed is 13.7 to 14.9v. Often it chooses 13.7v when the battery is still depleted, other times it chooses 14.9v when the battery is bursting full.

If the ECM voltage regulator is bypassed, the check engine light illuminates.

I'd love to be able to easily bypass it without setting off the Check engine light, and use an adjustable voltage regulator instead.

Nothing would make me happier than a dashboard mounted potentiometer with a 14.7 and 13.6 clearly delineated and a voltage regulator which obeys my desires.

Right now the full range I need is perhaps 14.5v to 13.5v.

My AGM battery recommends 14.46 ABSv at 77f, but it gets 14.7 to 14.9v often when driving. It 'seems' Ok with this. I cannot detect any capacity loss in nearly 200 50% Deep cycles over the last 23 months.

I am considering not getting a house battery at all. This AGM can so easily start my engine depleted to 30% SOC, and can handle such obscene charge currents, I think I can get away with just a feel good 12AH Asian jumper AGM which comes in most jumper packs to parallel if I ever cannot start my engine.

It Should also be stated I am not stressing this. Nothing is broke and going to Leave me stranded. I am only willing to go so far in my Quest for Ideal. More important is to not fry the engine computer trying to trick it/ bypass it entirely when trying to pick my maximum allowed voltage manually.

Honestly I get more irritated seeing 13.7v on a discharged battery when more amps are available, than I do seeing 14.9v on a fully charged one. At 14.9v and fully charged my Ammeter reads +0.0 amps.

Really hoping to better grasp externally regulated alternator Voltage regulation and entice discussion along these lines, as my knowledge is cloudy and lacking in this area. If you are the type you cannot be bothered with any manual approach along these lines, then click the back button and move on to some other thread, please.

On a related note, My recently replaced reman'd lifetime warranty alternator can produce 20 more amps at hot idle than my previous one could, but does not seem to produce as much as the previous at higher rpm, even with a battery depleted enough to still be well below absorption voltage. I've not gotten it above about 78 amps where as my previous one, when still healthy, could do almost 110amps into a depleted battery at ~3150rpm cold.

[ledcomp]

Thanks for all of the info. I will be watching this one.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The 911 series of Tranpo reg without remote have the adjustment pot potted within the terminal strip. Barrier terminal strips have on their ends four holes for mounting, right?

What Oropeza did was pot the pass-through strip. Look ma no screws holding me. Down one of the empty holes is the pot making it available from the FRONT.

If buying a 911 reg you have to know if your alternator uses an A circuit or B circuit field. A circuit controls and fondles field current between rotor and ground while B Circuit contols field current BEFORE IT GETS to the alternator. A & B are manufactuer's and rebuilders terminology. Boating and others use N for A circuit and P for B circuit. Hope this helps.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

The model number of the TRANSPO is 8313

IT MUST HAVE A SUPERB CASE GROUND. Isolate the case to chassis ground as noted above. But also note Oropeza got tired of hearing neophyte complaints about neophytes "tampering" with the voltage pot. The little white pot with the blue screw set in the green potting on the REAR of this regulator. I sorta remember these - all 150 or so...

Don't screw around. Order a genuine TYCO BOSCH relay with socket plug on Amazon. Other brands can be utter junk. This DEDICATED beauty would have 2 functions...

1. Provide field voltage to the alternator IGNITION brush

2. Provide field power and voltage reference to the the 8313 voltage regulator.

Use sixteen gauge tinned wire throughout. It's plenty big enough for four amps of field current. The BOSCH TYCO relay should drop a mere .16 volt with a 4 amp contact load. Graft a chopped OEM ignition field supply wire to feed the relay coil. You need to tap the ALTERNATOR OUTPUT STUD for relay contacts power. Two tenths of a salvaged volt drop directed to the alternator field can mean five amperes additional output. Yes this means at rock bottom engine speed.

The 8313 is a Pulse Width Modulated Field Effect Transistor voltage regulator. it uses an NPN rather than a PNP output transistor (which I prefer). The circuit board is wave soldered.

By connecting the regulator power to the alternator output stud, if the main battery cable gets blown or disconnected the regulator could care less. The stub power wire from the alternator will maintain perfect voltage value. This is NOT THE CASE if voltage regulator power is taken at the battery.

Save the voltage drop correction buzz for something else. A system like this has been power wire upgraded resulting in NO voltage drop between alternator output stud and the battery positive post. Wiring the reg like I suggest results in inherent protection - the best kind.

Emery or file off the irridite plating around one of the two 1/4" diameter reg mounting holes. Use a quarter inch ring terminal fit for TEN TO TWELVE GAUGE wire. Double the stripped conductor and crimp. Then solder, and double heat shrink for strain relief. I used a heavy block of wood atop the wire to clamp the ring terminal to the reg case. If you need to, whittle a wood peg to keep the ring terminal centered on the mounting hole. Then solder the heck out of the terminal to case connection. Don't spare the 63/37! The other end of the wire gets exactly the same terminal treatment to a fastener on the engine BLOCK or to the alternator. The alternator is best - perhaps to one of the case screws.

[landyacht318]

LEdcomp, no worries about a partial hijack. Same topic, nearly same platform, and we got Mex contributing to the overall knowledge on the subject, so everybody wins.

When I begin these modifications I will report that 'fool the ecm' resistor value, and I might go with the transpo adjustable regulator on the Mopar casing, and I will solder dedicated ground cable from it to alternator, and perhaps thermal epoxy some an extra heatsink to the casing too.

My desire to have just the remote potentiometer is large though. I wonder what the potting material is and how hard it would be to get through to it and get some wires to it for a remote mount. If i have to i will mount the whole VR unit itself so i can reach the dial on the backside from the driver's seat.

Unnecessary yes, needed no, but I love manual control and 14.9v for hours on end when highway driving on my already full AGM is my main motivator for doing this. The 13.7v when the battery is depleted is quite annoying too.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

🙂 Try it and learn. It's great exercise. 🙂

When you touch the heatsink of that TO3 after full-fielding it for fifteen minutes - instant lesson about vsat. When you compare output potential of a vsat slumped field voltage to direct full-field you will learn about ohms law and what 1.0 volt of field voltage loss due to a fully saturated device and how it degrades ouput. MOSFET transistors are not used in today's voltage regulators for the fun of it.

Yes the Author's design will work. No, it will not field an alternator anywhere close to the wattage available with today's MOSFETs. There is little transient voltage protection in the design except for the diodes. Shoot with that design why not advance a decade and utilize a Darlington power transistor? Do that and you'll jump up to 1980's technology.

Building stuff is fun. But not at the expense of ending up with something that is akin to strapping a sundial on your wrist. There are lots of modern A and B field voltage regulators on the market with external sense leads. A 1116387 Delco reg strapped to a good heatsink with heat sink thermal grease and protected by some 18 volt TVS diodes is a beautifully small package A circuit not B circuit reg that matches the design of MoPar field circuit operation. A MOSFET reg controllable with a one watt pot 500 ohms. Mounting this critter to a heat sink in a project box will make it infinetely mpre durable than a similar regulator mounted inside a Delco alternator. The added TVS protection is great. If you wish caterpillar bulldozer grade transient voltage protection substitute Motorola MR2535 avalanche diodes.

Discrete regulators have their place. A properly designed discrete VR can be a reality with today's MOSFETS. Housed in a waterproof NEMA box circumvavigation grade voltage regulators are a reality. I built a total of four in the 1990's. All had ohmite 30 ohm 7-amp rated power rheostats (remote) for equalization and bet-your-life dependability. Open ocean cruising is a whole different world. I've lost track of three of the four units. Black Swan is still going after 23-years. Last I heard she was in the Aegean Sea. She changed to Lifeline batteries around eight years ago. She is running a 3825 Leece Nevillealternator with one of my remote rectifier bridges - six 300 amp 1, 625 PIV rectifiers. The monster is bound to outlast it's creator 😞

But do build the linked regulator. It's a blast to play with!

[Salvo]

There you go. Looks like a good design and easy to build. Use a standard TO3 heatsink, or contact the designer.

Still need to know the resistor value to fool the emc. The resistor simulates the field load.

This design just looks at battery voltage and activates alternator when voltage is low. As mentioned earlier, you can use existing regulator and lower input battery voltage (using diode or pot) and get similar results.

landyacht318 wrote:


http://www.amsterdamhouseboats.nl/voltage_regulator.htm

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Ain't worth it. Production parts that cost OEM 2-cents will cost you fifty cents. Then you run into things like feedback ringing oscillation, load voltage slump, the list is intimidating. The best regulators use a MOSFET that triggers on residual magnetism that generates more than MOSFET gate voltage AC in the stator. I.e. a self-exciting regulator. No ignition switch needed.

Voltage regulators require enough negative current to bias the voltage sensing voltage divider network and transistors. Not much current but the wire needs mechanical strength and superb low resistance.

One thing about "ground" wiring, people. And this is crucial..

ANY extra ground cabling can act as The One And Only Ground Cable if the primary ground cable integrity is lost. I used to insulate my regs unless the reg itself has an isolated dedicated ground. Zero continuity at 20 meg ohm for isolation between case negative and any and all electrical terminals on the reg. A blinking "1" on a DMM

Inadvertant ground loops can cause fires and feedback damage so THINK before making a ground bridge that connects engine to chassis or body. Starter motor current is a gorilla that bites. If a regulator case ground is ISOLATED from the chassis and has it's own ground wire it stops ground loops dead. But my soldering of a ground wire direct to the reg case was no joke. I used 12-gauge wire for Mechanical Strength. Soldered. Heat shrink then wire insulation clamped clamped for strain relief. Tie wrap glue pads with a screw make great plastic or steel fenderwell tie wrap mounting points for secure anchoring.

ECU regs offer temperature compensation which I like. An underhood battery can go from -30F to +150F in underca half hour. Batteries do not like engine heat. Engine heat pisses sulfuric acid off and turns it into The Blob corroding battery plates like canapes. If I do blow a wad on a 2-story 31 Lifeline it goes in the trunk. With a 120 amp Misubishi upgrade I can play musical AGMs using someone else's labor and recharge batteries fairly quickly. I woud add an external rectifier. Pass a 1 gauge cable right alongside the port side door sills wrapped in nylon spial wrap. A maybe pipe-dream.

Use CARE when choosing a voltage regulator! There is a lot of utter undependable garbage on the market and then most of the rest is ho-hum incompetent me-too's with substandard performance. A regulator that slumps more than a tenth of a volt from no load to full load is garbage.

If I go AGM in the car I need to ---- can the ECU reg and replace it with a remote adjust reg. It would be a reg with a dedicated sense terminal.

But right now I have the BORG project sticking out my --- and while I am a big FAN of heatsinking I need to do two things. One is to quit with the stupid puns and second is to go back for more shuteye. Pain as usual blew it's goddamed reville trumpet in my ear at 0300. Say "Goodnight Dick"

[landyacht318]

I thought a 94 dodge van was a magnum engine and had a serpentine belt and a much smaller alternator pulley as well as a ND alternator, which resolved the infamous dodge van lights dimming at idle reported since the 70's.

While my newer remand alternator seems to be more capable at hot idle, my older one could not handle the Lights, blower motor on high and a depleted battery. The voltage would sink to and below 12.8 if the traffic light is long enough.

My AC does not work, so there is a load you have that I do not, but I would not necessarily expect magical amperage increase at hot idle.

However if yours never goes above 13.5v at any rpm, even with a fully charged battery(s) , then there is a problem somewhere.

While my old alternator maxed out at 32 amps extra for loads at hot idle speed of 525 rpm, at 800 rpm there were 62 amps available and voltage would quickly rebound.

I am not sure of the outputs of my recent reman alternator but the other day was supplying 50 amps into my well depleted northstar AGM at hot idle when I expected to see it in the low 20's, if that

In the Video shown in that 'fool the ecm kit', the adjustable voltage regulator slides out of a TransPro box.

That large finned VR mex posted a pic of that has a remote montable potentiometer, the voltage range is 14 to 20. There is another large finned version that has a 13.0 to 15.5v but it has no remote potentiometer but instead claims it is obscures to prevent accidental bumping.

There is another Alternator parts video explaining how to hook it up, and it clearly shows the modern looking Blue/white potentiometer on the back mostly submerged in potting.

Heck, If I was able to put a remote potentiometer on my Meanwell, I can likely remove the potting and get to the circuit board for a remote mounted pot for next to my dashboard voltmeters. But I guess I could just thermal epoxy another finned heat sink to the casing, ground it properly, glue a dial on the existing pot and mount it where I can easily choose 14.4 or 13.6v for this battery

I saw another similar to the mopar VR, a Bosch adjustable VR




Guess if i Knew WTF this guy was talking about, I could make my own adjustable VR: But wheres the heatsinking??

http://www.amsterdamhouseboats.nl/voltage_regulator.htm

[ledcomp]

landyacht318 wrote:
My alternator has two field wires. one is a light blue wire that called the Z1 circuit, and the other is a green wire which runs directly to my engine computer. The haynes or chiltons manuals are nearly worthless for electrical diagrams. Goto Ebay motors and get a real factory service manual for your specific year.

I agree that the chilton and haynes manuals suck. I did get a factory Dodge manual. It has all the info, but there is no easy way to follow a circuit with a few branches. Most other schematics will say "see page X" this one shows a splice and you need to cross ref the splice, figure out where they go and then find the diagrams.

landyacht318 wrote:
My PCM costs about the same, I've been meaning to get a backup or have my original rebuilt. I had to resolder the 14 pin connector in January as it had a bunch of broken solder contacts. One of these was the alternator field wire connector pin. Another fed 9v to the other circuit board, and the two other broken solder joints were for the fuel injectors.

Man that was fun stalling randomly and having to wiggle the connectors and zip tie them just so, so I could drive around on both injectors, and also charge.

Now that makes me suspect the PCM even more. Sometimes it runs great and sometimes it runs good.

landyacht318 wrote:
Really if all that is required to fool the ECM, not let the smoke out and be able to employ a manually adjustable voltage regulator, is this device:


Well I am all over it, soon as finances allow.

Let me know if you find the value of the resistor and where to connect it.

landyacht318 wrote:
LEDcomp, you have a wiring issue somewhere. The adjustable regulator will likely not solve your issue, especially if you do not have and DTC stored in your computer related to the alternator.

I never had a charging code or pending code on it.

Here is one trick, more info from Mex I empoyed later than i should have.

landyacht318 wrote:
Caig Deoxit d5 spray. Disconnect battery, Disconnect ECM/PCM connectors, Flush out all old dielectric grease with regular electronics cleeaner. then spray with the D5. wait a while and wipe pins and sockets of connectors with precision swabs:

http://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-Craft-Cotton-Xsmall-TAM87103/dp/B0026IBC2O/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid...

Despite thier slathering in dielectric grease, the pins and sockets will shred the precision swabs turning them black, and progressively less so until they remain unshredded and pink with the Deoxit.

I was astounded how much oxidation was removed after I had declared the contacts pristing after blasting a whole can of CRC QED cleaner through the connectors.


Later on i cleaned every sensor connector, every connector everywhere. Felt like I took 750 Lbs of weight out of the van next time I drove it, and MPGS I lost and thought was due to taller heavier tires installed, returned.

Magic electrical juice. After the application of d5 or d100 to remove oxidation from electrical contact surfaces, I applied Deoxit gold or Deoxit shield to protect them. I smushed dielectric grease into the already reseated connectors, but I did not pack the connectors together with dielectric grease then reseat them as is the common practice.

Deoxit is great stuff, I need more D5 but I do have shield. Im a little concerned about removing the 3 PCM connectors. Other connectors have been brittle. Did the PCM connectors give you any problems? I guess I need to pull them to do a PCM swap anyway.

LandY - Sorry for kind of hi-jacking your thread. I can start a new thread if you like. I just figured we are both trying to make these Dodge charging systems work. Let me know and again thanks for the help.

Or maybe I shouldn't thank you, this project was on the back burner but now it looks like I need to get it out of storage and revisit this again. 🙂
That engine cover and the captain seats are a bear in that van.

[ledcomp]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Good technicians are LAZY technicians. I just got through sending the company a double-digit IQ grade, list of questions. I don't even wanna pop the hood and trace down the wire to the ECU. But before anyone grabs a 24" Stihl and goes to work allow the company to respond.

Well, I definitely fall under the lazy technician catagory. The problem i'm sure you are aware of is that it is a plesant surprise when a mfg/distribution tech can answer a question with an intelligent answer. I have run into a few in the RV industry like Shure Power and Best Converter.

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Case grounding is common on both A and B field circuit external regulators. For years I SOLDERED a wire with a 1/4" ring terminal atop a reg mounting hole. Both in the 540-series of Ford external regs and the 8312 series of MoPar external regs.

Do you have any idea how much current is on the ground path of these external regulators or better yet, what gauge wire for a 4' run?

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
One of the two wires on the MoPar alternator is IGNITION SWITCHED POSITIVE. The other wire goes to the ECU. Disconnect one wire and use a test light to verify which is which. Key on but engine off. Remember this terminal.

Prepare to voltage probe this wire while it is connected charging with every accessory in the car switched ON. Drain the battery a little before starting the engine. Start the engine using a volt drop check. Meter positive probe on the alt output stud the neg probe on the field wire connection I told you not to forget.

Half a volt drop is too much. Fix it even if you have to do it using a Bosch type relay. Low voltage is low field current which is low alternator output. Total all-out ampere potential. If voltage drop is seen fix it.

I will check that next time I pull the engine cover, that happens as little as possible, what a pain in the *ss. How much drop is acceptable? Even if I pull power from the battery and go through a bosch relay I will still have 0.2 volt drop. Would that be acceptable?

Thanks for the help on this one guys, this is one of those long term persistant problems that iratate me. The funny thing is that it has been this way for the 3 years that i have had it. It is still on the battery I put in when I got it, It allways starts right up. I just dont like to see 12.8 volts at idle with lights and A/C on.

[landyacht318]

My alternator has two field wires. one is a light blue wire that called the Z1 circuit, and the other is a green wire which runs directly to my engine computer. The haynes or chiltons manuals are nearly worthless for electrical diagrams. Goto Ebay motors and get a real factory service manual for your specific year.

Once I was in Baja with an InOP alternator and 3 heavily depleted batteries, and replaced the green wire to no avail. It disappeared into a wiring harness and I though it felt broken under the insulation. I think it was a 14 awg wire, and i replaced it with 12awg. Still there.

My PCM costs about the same, I've been meaning to get a backup or have my original rebuilt. I had to resolder the 14 pin connector in January as it had a bunch of broken solder contacts. One of these was the alternator field wire connector pin. Another fed 9v to the other circuit board, and the two other broken solder joints were for the fuel injectors.

Man that was fun stalling randomly and having to wiggle the connectors and zip tie them just so, so I could drive around on both injectors, and also charge.

Really if all that is required to fool the ECM, not let the smoke out and be able to employ a manually adjustable voltage regulator, is this device:


Well I am all over it, soon as finances allow.

LEDcomp, you have a wiring issue somewhere. The adjustable regulator will likely not solve your issue, especially if you do not have and DTC stored in your computer related to the alternator.

Here is one trick, more info from Mex I empoyed later than i should have.

Caig Deoxit d5 spray. Disconnect battery, Disconnect ECM/PCM connectors, Flush out all old dielectric grease with regular electronics cleeaner. then spray with the D5. wait a while and wipe pins and sockets of connectors with precision swabs:

http://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-Craft-Cotton-Xsmall-TAM87103/dp/B0026IBC2O/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?ie=UTF8&qid...

Despite thier slathering in dielectric grease, the pins and sockets will shred the precision swabs turning them black, and progressively less so until they remain unshredded and pink with the Deoxit.

I was astounded how much oxidation was removed after I had declared the contacts pristing after blasting a whole can of CRC QED cleaner through the connectors.


Later on i cleaned every sensor connector, every connector everywhere. Felt like I took 750 Lbs of weight out of the van next time I drove it, and MPGS I lost and thought was due to taller heavier tires installed, returned.

Magic electrical juice. After the application of d5 or d100 to remove oxidation from electrical contact surfaces, I applied Deoxit gold or Deoxit shield to protect them. I smushed dielectric grease into the already reseated connectors, but I did not pack the connectors together with dielectric grease then reseat them as is the common practice.

[ledcomp]

landyacht318 wrote:
This style of voltage regulator always needed an excellent ground or it would overcharge. I'm not sure huge wire is needed. The video recommends connecting the VR and the alternator casing, he said nothing about hooking a 4 gauge wire between the two. Did you talk with the guy?

I'm a ways away from actually trying it out. Don't think I need the whole Kit with plug and play harness.

I personally think that 4AWG is overkill, I was thinking 8 or 10AWG. I'm sure Mex would know better than me. The regulator case ground is not carrying the full alternator load. I have no idea how much load and voltage drop are acceptable.

This is also a project that is on the back burner for me. Every time I take out the factory manual and start tracking down wires I get pissed off because whoever drew the schematics broke down all of the systems to a page or two. The problem is that when a wire is common to two circuits it is difficult to follow the current path. Its like trying to see the big picture through a microscope.

I was hoping that I could find someone that has done this. I didn't want to be the guinea pig and let all of the magic smoke out of my PCM. My PCM cost $200, so its not the end of the world. I am going to check a few things Mex recommend, then I might replace the PCM. I would like it to work stock but I am starting to think that the stock design sucks.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Good technicians are LAZY technicians. I just got through sending the company a double-digit IQ grade, list of questions. I don't even wanna pop the hood and trace down the wire to the ECU. But before anyone grabs a 24" Stihl and goes to work allow the company to respond. Won't cost a nickel.

Case grounding is common on both A and B field circuit external regulators. For years I SOLDERED a wire with a 1/4" ring terminal atop a reg mounting hole. Both in the 540-series of Ford external regs and the 8312 series of MoPar external regs.

One of the two wires on the MoPar alternator is IGNITION SWITCHED POSITIVE. The other wire goes to the ECU. Disconnect one wire and use a test light to verify which is which. Key on but engine off. Remember this terminal.

Prepare to voltage probe this wire while it is connected charging with every accessory in the car switched ON. Drain the battery a little before starting the engine. Start the engine using a volt drop check. Meter positive probe on the alt output stud the neg probe on the field wire connection I told you not to forget.

Half a volt drop is too much. Fix it even if you have to do it using a Bosch type relay. Low voltage is low field current which is low alternator output. Total all-out ampere potential. If voltage drop is seen fix it.

[landyacht318]

This style of voltage regulator always needed an excellent ground or it would overcharge. I'm not sure huge wire is needed. The video recommends connecting the VR and the alternator casing, he said nothing about hooking a 4 gauge wire between the two. Did you talk with the guy?

I'm a ways away from actually trying it out. Don't think I need the whole Kit with plug and play harness.

[ledcomp]

Landy
If you are going to use an external regulator similar to the one in the above link be careful. The metal case or the regulator and alternator case have to be bonded togeather with a heavy gauge wire and virtually no voltage drop/ resistance or bad things can happen.