UPS Ideas ?

[BFL13]

This could be for an RV where there have been posts about TV receivers etc getting knocked out by slow switching 120v power inputs. In this case it is in the stick house. I have jury-rigged something using RV equipment, but looking for a better answer.

The internet to the house has two things that need plugging into 120v, so when we have a power outage we lose the internet. This can be bad for working at home situations, eg. The laptops, etc, have their own batteries of course.

I have rigged up a 27DC battery with a 300w MSW inverter, and plugged the two things into that. I have a spare deck mount converter on the battery and the converter is powered by stick house 120v. So that all works for being a UPS. However, the converter fan comes on every so often and is annoying. The inverter's fan is quiet so no problem there. It all gets as much air as possible.

So what do people do who know more about all this tech stuff? Thanks for any ideas.

I did run a kill-a-watt on it all to see what the power needs are. (all figures rounded off and averaged where they bounce around some)

1. Phone company equipment (two plug-ins) in stick house receptacles- total- 15w, 28VA, PF 0.55

2. In inverter receptacles- 14w, 31-40VA, PF 0.3- 0.46 jumping around.

3. All running off inverter and from the converter's 120v input-
45w, 58VA, PF 0.76

So drawing about double what it takes straight (58 vs 28 VA), but not worried about that increase in the hydro bill 🙂 . It is more about the converter's fan noise.

[BFL13]

CJW8 wrote:
I run a 400VA UPS in my RV to keep my Satellite powered when I swap power sources from onboard generator to portable generator to inverter. I do this because it takes 5 minutes for the satellite to reboot.

I am not familiar with RV satellite set-ups, but if you didn't have a UPS unit, could you just plug a 300w inverter into the Winegard 12v socket and run the receiver part from that all the time? (While the TV set is plugged into RV 120v on the "main inverter" or shore power or gen)

[Gdetrailer]

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
I remember my first Tripp Lite forty years ago....

400 watt square wave.

I connected it to a 90 watt high pressure sodium lamp

SQUEAL. WHISTLE........SCREEEE.......

Hatfield and McCoy. The lamp ballast definitely did not like square wave.

Note: modified sine wave did not exist then. The inverter was heavy and cost $400

Correct you are!

Yes, I HAVE encountered that old "squarewave" UPS in my travels as a Electronic Tech.. Was a field UPS that came back out of the field for the company I was working for at the time with dead batteries.. Was used for the POS (Point of Sale) system for a chain of stores.. Needless to say, we REPLACED it with a bit more modern MSW APC..

I was working as a "Bench Tech" at that time and my job was to setup new systems from scratch and repair all returned equipment for all of the companies customer sites.

I used to repair cash drawers, printers, the Server and workstation PCs and yes, the UPS units back then.. Those older UPS units really were not designed with battery replacement in mind and were a challenge.. Most UPS units simply needed new batteries with only a few unrepairable.. The dirt ugly case UPS units (customer sites often refused equipment with any plastic discolored, dents or scratches could not be returned to the field so they often ended up in my car.

I still have a couple of those older APCs plus a Minuteman laying around but after 30+yrs and multiple battery changes I have been slowly replacing with much newer Tripplites since the newer Tripplites are more stable with a generator than the older technology APC/Minuteman/Tripplite UPS units. Not to mention the older UPS units I have are getting really long in tooth and well past the EOL for reliability.

[Gdetrailer]

CJW8 wrote:

BFL13 wrote:
Looking at some UPS units. Not too clear how long the battery lasts, eg.

This one says it has a sealed lead acid battery and you can get replacement batteries for it

"APC 1000VA UPS Back UPS Pro mini tower backup power supply ..... Hot swappable batteries Ensures clean, uninterrupted power to protected equipment while batteries are being replaced"

"Hot swappable" means what exactly? Are there two in it so it keeps running while you swap out one at a time? Can you recharge the battery after the power comes back on?

I have seen those "power box" things that seem to do what I want that you can recharge, but I don't know about fan noise with them if any.

Yes, it has 2 batteries, sometimes one is smaller than the other. The bigger one is the main battery and since they are in parallel, you can pull the main and install a replacement.

While that UPS has TWO 12V batteries, they ARE identical in size and they ARE in series for 24V.

"replacement pack" looks like this..



See HERE

Which ARE nothing but a standard 12V 12Ahr AGM battery, nothing special to write home about.

"hot swap" is sort of a misnomer and overused word, in the case of small consumer size UPS units it means it IS designed for the CONSUMER to be able to replace the batteries.

This typically means there is a fairly easy way to open the battery compartment, you WILL STILL HAVE TO POWER DOWN ALL ATTACHED EQUIPMENT AND UNPLUG THE UPS!!!!

Newer APC and Tripplite UPS units have a removable front panel to gain access to the battery compartment..

Much older designs did not have a easy to get to battery compartment and required one to remove the top of UPS, often also requiring disconnecting some circuit board connections and even removing or moving the circuit board.

Found a real nice writeup on how to replace the batteries in said APC..

HERE

Some older "select" APS units had an OPTIONAL EXTERNAL battery pack which could be added on which might be what some folks are thinking of.. But, not many consumer size UPS units offer external battery configurations any more..

The only ones I am finding now are 48V expansion packs which are for APC units larger than 2200VA..

[MEXICOWANDERER]

I remember my first Tripp Lite forty years ago....

400 watt square wave.

I connected it to a 90 watt high pressure sodium lamp

SQUEAL. WHISTLE........SCREEEE.......

Hatfield and McCoy. The lamp ballast definitely did not like square wave.

Note: modified sine wave did not exist then. The inverter was heavy and cost $400

[CJW8]

I run a 400VA UPS in my RV to keep my Satellite powered when I swap power sources from onboard generator to portable generator to inverter. I do this because it takes 5 minutes for the satellite to reboot.

[CJW8]

BFL13 wrote:
Looking at some UPS units. Not too clear how long the battery lasts, eg.

This one says it has a sealed lead acid battery and you can get replacement batteries for it

"APC 1000VA UPS Back UPS Pro mini tower backup power supply ..... Hot swappable batteries Ensures clean, uninterrupted power to protected equipment while batteries are being replaced"

"Hot swappable" means what exactly? Are there two in it so it keeps running while you swap out one at a time? Can you recharge the battery after the power comes back on?

I have seen those "power box" things that seem to do what I want that you can recharge, but I don't know about fan noise with them if any.

Yes, it has 2 batteries, sometimes one is smaller than the other. The bigger one is the main battery and since they are in parallel, you can pull the main and install a replacement.

[Gdetrailer]

BFL13 wrote:
I changed the OP jury rig UPS to being in the garage so that's it for now. I am on inverter all the time for those internet devices on a long 120v to the kitchen, and the converter is plugged into house 120v in the garage.

Thanks everyone for the good info on real UPS set-ups and what applies to RVs too. On that, feel free to use this thread for more examples of RV UPS set-ups. Interesting topic!

Sounds like a plan..

However, I will give you another idea which while not a cheap setup, it is real cool way to build your own expandable UPS..

TRIPPLITE APS1250



This is a industrial INVERTER WITH built in CHARGER AND AUTOMATIC SWITCHING (ATS). The only thing that is missing is the battery you supply!

This inverter gives you an honest 1250W, its rating is not based on VA and is built like a tank.

" Portable dual-outlet power source for power applications, such as power tools and computers, as a vehicle inverter, standalone AC power source or extended-run UPS. Ideal for RVs, fleet vehicles and emergency vehicles.

Delivers clean 120V AC power from AC or DC power source
1250W continuous output power; 2500W peak power
Auto-transfer switching option for UPS operation
Protects against blackouts, surges and EMI/RFI line noise
Rugged polycarbonate housing resists moisture and impact

1-year limited warranty"


Reliable Power for Mobile, Emergency and Remote Sites

Generates safe, stable, computer-grade 120V AC power from 12V battery bank
Ideal for powering tools, saws, motors, pumps, portable lighting, appliances and computer equipment in heavy-load conditions
Designed for easy installation in RVs, over-the-road trucks, fleet vehicles and emergency vehicles
Functions as a vehicle inverter, standalone AC power source or extended-run UPS
Features 2 front NEMA 5-15R outlets
Unlimited runtime with variety of user-supplied batteries


Meets Normal and Peak Power Demands

1250W of continuous power
1850W of reserve power up to 1 hr.
2500W of peak power up to 10 sec. to accommodate surge power demands during equipment startup and cycling
Automatic overload detector, built-in cooling fan and resettable AC circuit breaker protect unit from damage


Automatic Transfer Switching

Transfer relay switches to inverter power during blackout in 16.6 ms
3-position switch enables Auto, Charge Only or System Off mode
DIP switches configure high and low voltage auto-transfer


3-Stage 30A Battery Charger

Serves as battery charger when external 120V AC power is supplied and powering connected equipment
Protects battery from overcharging and overdischarging
Low-battery protection prevents excessive battery depletion
DIP switches configure wet/gel charging profiles


Optional Remote Control Capability

RJ45 communication port allows connection of optional remote control module, such as Tripp Lite’s APSRM4


Front-Panel LEDs

Indicate load level, battery charge level, shutdown status and system fault status


Rugged Polycarbonate Housing

Resists moisture, vibration and impact
Built-in mounting feet for installation on any rigid horizontal surface
Grounding lug connects unit to earth ground or vehicle grounding system
Built-in 6 ft. AC power cord with NEMA 5-15P plug connects to AC power source


Pricey at $550 but has endless expansion capabilities..

They do have a smaller 750W unit (APS750) priced at $300, has 20A charger built in..

[Gdetrailer]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

Also have a couple of Tripplite 1300VA units, 5 yr old and a 1 yr old) ...

FYI, according to their own specs, that unit will give less than 2 minutes of "ride through" when the output is above 650W.

You DO realize that "UPS" units are spec'd by the V/A (Volt/Amperes), actual "wattage" of the unit IS lower than the V/A.

I remember my disappointment many yrs ago when I realized my first UPS which was a APC 450 VA unit could only handle 2.8A of 120V load or 336W if you like.

Read up on VA ratings.. HERE

Actual output wattage on UPS units will always be LESS than the VA rating.

Every consumer grade UPS I have worked with ALL have "ride through" times at or near MAX wattage loads of 2-5 minutes or so.

IF you need more "ride through" time you simply buy a higher VA unit which will have a larger capacity battery.

Most small UPS units have nothing more than a 10ahr-12Ahr battery pack, low wattage UPS units will have a 12V pack, higher wattage like a 1300VA will have a 24V battery bank.. Get into 2200 VA and you start getting into UPS units which offer EXTERNAL battery bank expansion capability.

As an exapmple, my main computer plus router plus a network hub plus a inkjet printer all powered on consume 100W, that is just under 1/6 of the max capacity of the 1300VA UPS that they are attached to.

Run time with all powered up gives me pretty close to 20 minutes.

IF I only have the router and hub powered that same UPS easily runs 1.5 hrs or a bit more.

I HAVE seen these UPS units run for 2 hrs with no load on.

The whole original idea of a UPS is to ALLOW you enough time to SHUT DOWN your computer gracefully. Over the yrs folks have "discovered" that these UPS units can do a lot more than just run a computer.

If one wanted to, one COULD pretty much make ANY UPS run longer by simply removing the existing small 10-12Ahr AGM battery and connecting it to a much larger EXTERNAL battery of your own choice.

The limitation is mainly the Ahr size of the battery that can fit inside that case, although, I will have to warn folks that most UPS units are not designed for long term battery operation so cooling the unit can become an issue for passively cooled fanless units (IE the low VA small surge protector styles).

[BFL13]

I changed the OP jury rig UPS to being in the garage so that's it for now. I am on inverter all the time for those internet devices on a long 120v to the kitchen, and the converter is plugged into house 120v in the garage.

Thanks everyone for the good info on real UPS set-ups and what applies to RVs too. On that, feel free to use this thread for more examples of RV UPS set-ups. Interesting topic!

[wa8yxm]

BFL13 wrote:
I have rigged up a 27DC battery with a 300w MSW inverter, and plugged the two things into that. I have a spare deck mount converter on the battery and the converter is powered by stick house 120v. So that all works for being a UPS. However, the converter fan comes on every so often and is annoying. The inverter's fan is quiet so no problem there. It all gets as much air as possible.

Now save for the MSW (I would use a PSW) that sounds like something I'd do.:)

Seriously for your use that is likely find if it's not bothering the TV or internet when it cuts over to Inverter. If it does go with a PURE sine wave or TRUE sine wave (Same thing) I'd also suggest AGM battery for use indoors.

Had you not already purchased the inverter/battery set up I'd recommend a good Computer UPS from someplace like BEST BUy.

What do I use

Xantrex Freedom 2000 xc and about 500 amp hours worth of house batteries in an RV.. Before that I used a Prosine 2000 I like the prosine better (Way easier to install) But they quit making 'em.

NOTE: When I had I think it was Dish Network and used a MOTOSAT automatic dome.. It reset whenver the blasted power switched over.

Now I use OTA tv with a Dish parent company Digital converter (Uses same remote as the Sat Receiver but less buttons, Same menus Says DISH on it) it does not reset. In fact if power goes out the only thing I might notice is a slight dimming of lights or slowing of a fan till I look about at the indicator lights I have scattered about and they are dark.

[MEXICOWANDERER]

My UPS is 100% home made
Made with a Samlex 600 watt pure wave inverter.with. <20ms switchover time

[BFL13]

time2roll wrote:

BFL13 wrote:
A really keen graduate of rv.net school would also organize a solar panel on the garage roof to help run the whole thing. 🙂

At home? https://www.tesla.com/solarpanels

Solar City installed mine 7 years ago and have fully paid for themselves.

Only one problem with that---our back yard facing South. Not much sun on that side of the roof most of the year. Good patio shade though! 🙂

[time2roll]

BFL13 wrote:
A really keen graduate of rv.net school would also organize a solar panel on the garage roof to help run the whole thing. 🙂

At home? https://www.tesla.com/solarpanels

Solar City installed mine 7 years ago and have fully paid for themselves.

[BFL13]

I might just move the jury rig set of spare RV stuff into the garage where it can't be heard and run a long 120v wire with a receptacle on it marked "inverter" to the kitchen where the two things needing a UPS are.

Learned on this forum about using long 120v instead of long 12v. A really keen graduate of rv.net school would also organize a solar panel on the garage roof to help run the whole thing. 🙂