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Very Low OCV on Full Batts???

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
I've been seeing lower than usual resting ocv this winter, compared to last. Figured it was either wear and tear, too high a charging voltage, or a parasitic draw.

So I tried throwing a lower voltage charge on the bank, to see if that would make any difference, as I know my four 6's prefer to be topped off at less than 15v (t.c.). On Tuesday Feb 3rd, ocv was 12.71 (use to hold strong at 12.78v, last winter), so I topped them up to within 1a @ 14.6v. But before I could give them a week or two to see the results, ocv suddenly plummeted.

Wed, ocv was 13.08. Fri, ocv was 12.88. Sat, ocv was 12.84.

On Saturday I re-wired the bank, c/w new bus bars, and hooked everything up as it would normally be, including the Trimetric, but just no fridge controls, and the cables from the charger were hooked to the bank, but not to the charger. These two cable ends were wrapped with cloth and taped with electrical tape, so they could not short out in the charger cabinet.

Mon, ocv was only 12.54!

So, I checked across all four 6v's, and voltages were all within 0.01v; all in the ~6.27v range. I confirmed the ocv with the trimetric (was rounded up to 12.6v, which is normal for the Trimetric). I switched it to amps, and the Trimetric said 0.00 amps draw. Ah's used was zero, as well. SOC was 100%. I also checked all connections.

So, I hooked up the pm4b-45, and voltage immediately rose to the bulk setting, and amps quickly tapered from 45a to 4a in 15 minutes. So, clearly the bank was full, or at least very near full. But according to the resting ocv, the bank should have been in the 75% soc range, and down at least 100 Ah's.

So why did I get a 12.54v reading on full batts???

Thanks!
51 REPLIES 51

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
P.T., Good to know, thanks!

At last check, the batts were resting, individually (i.e; disconnected) in the 6.41-6.45v range @ 28F. That was 10 days after their last top charge at 15v @ ~ 44-50F ambient.

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Hi jrnymn,

Yes you can do dip tube stirring. But if the batteries are put away fully charged, then the colder it is the less often treatment may be needed.

jrnymn7 wrote:
Hi, PT,

The bus is parked for the winter, but I have been wondering if I could stir them up, without actually having to charge them, by simply adding some rubber tubing to my hydrometer's dip tube, and occasionally doing a few re and re's of the electrolyte that's possibly concentrating at the bottom?

It would be interesting to see if SG's would rise as a result of a simple stirring?
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
Niner,

I'm on gen power only, at this point. I possibly have a few options next winter... 1) solar floating, 2) maybe storing the bank at my brothers place and grid floating, or 3) possibly renting an outdoor storage/parking spot, with hydro, for about $200/month.

Actually, option 3 would be a viable one, provided I was allowed to stay in the camper while parked in the storage lot. $200/month would be cheap winter living. (A room rental is anywhere from $400-600/month, for shared accommodations). I worked out my hydro usage, and even with running some electric heat in certain areas, like the fridge cabinet, I would use about the same amount of hydro as someone who had their work truck, or whatever, plugged into a 600w block heater for 8 hours a night. (about $25/month). So that's something I'm going to look into for next winter.

NinerBikes
Explorer
Explorer
Put an old school Sears MANUAL battery charger on them, a 10A job, plug it in, leave it on over night, let the champagne bubbles and a little bit of heat do the stirring for you.

Batteries are then top charged and stirred up.

Repeat in another 3 months or so.

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
Hi, PT,

The bus is parked for the winter, but I have been wondering if I could stir them up, without actually having to charge them, by simply adding some rubber tubing to my hydrometer's dip tube, and occasionally doing a few re and re's of the electrolyte that's possibly concentrating at the bottom?

It would be interesting to see if SG's would rise as a result of a simple stirring?

Or, maybe I could use this method?

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEViMSnOxURqMA_HInnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0dmRibmhwBHNlYwN...

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Hi jrnymn,

You can "stir" the cells by driving the vehicle.

As far as floating goes, lead acid batteries love to be kept that way, so for the best possible lifespan it is worth doing.
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
Mena,

I would tend to think SG readings would be lower, in the case of stratification... as a result of a lower concentration at the top of each cell?

I have no means to float my bank, at present. I could possibly do it next winter with solar, but is it even worth the bother?

pianotuna
Nomad III
Nomad III
Hi,

As the speed of the chemical reaction slows considerably for ever 10 degrees C that the temperature drops, the damage from stratification is lower the colder it gets.

jrnymn7 wrote:
But, can allowing stratification to occur over the winter months, be detrimental to my bank?
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

mena661
Explorer
Explorer
jrnymn7 wrote:
But, can allowing stratification to occur over the winter months, be detrimental to my bank?
Yes, but I don't think the effects of stratification will show themselves that quickly. Over time, yes, but not over a winter. Besides, with GC's there isn't THAT much stratification to begin with. There's quite a bit with mine, so much so that MEX recommended that procedure I mentioned before. MEX does say that proper float increases battery life by quite a bit. I'd concentrate on getting that float fairly close to ideal. And I believe getting the float right is as simple as setting a voltage and checking SG a month later to see if it's at baseline. If it is, good, if not, up the voltage some.

On stratification, you should see a higher SG when that's happening (not sure how much higher on GC's and marine hybrids). When my batts water levels start to decrease, my SG goes up from 1.285 to as high as 1.300. I know when it goes up I have a higher concentration of acid. When I add water and apply a "stirring" charge, the SG goes right back down to normal.

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
mena661 wrote:
jrnymn7 wrote:
I'm wondering if it's something that occurs in all temperatures, or just in very cold temps?
The resting voltage on my batts (12.82) has not changed but the coldest I've ever checked them was 47F/8C (this was battery temp not ambient). I top charge once a month.

EDIT: Let me correct the top charge. That should say, I perform a de-stratification charge once a month (tall batteries require this...you guys don't have to do that).


Mena, this is one of the things I'm trying to determine... what is best for my batts during winter storage? 1)Floating, 2) no floating, with the occasional de-stratification charge, or 3) no charging at all?

It appears the occasional de-stratification charge, at too low a voltage, can do more harm than good. But, can allowing stratification to occur over the winter months, be detrimental to my bank?

jrnymn7
Explorer
Explorer
There appears to be a suitable (t.c.) voltage that results in both high SG's and high resting ocv. This is, of course, battery specific. What works for my four 6's will obviously not work for a size 31 12v, for instance. What I'm about to say applies to what I have observed with my particular 6v GC-2's, and may or may not apply to a different battery type.

I believe Mex alluded to this "ideal" voltage in his 'antimony poisoning of neg plates thread', when he said;

"What I mean is progressive excess float voltage does a lot of damage. What is "excessive"? A certain voltage will render electrolyte a full specific density. A very specific amount of current will maintain that density. Anything less, the specific gravity slumps. Anything more, antimony starts packing its bags.

Note the crucial intention of the word PROGRESSIVE. Excessive charging voltages held for inordinately long periods of time will also cause antimony to take a hike." (end)

My batteries were over charged on several occasions last season, as the PEAK 40's voltage became higher as the season went on. Did this result in negative plate poisoning? I don't know. Are there times my bank appears to exhibit signs of heavy sulfation? Yes, but then taking into consideration temps, charging voltages, etc. reveals it is simply a matter of interpreting things in their proper, full context.

My conclusions at this point are, two things can result in lower resting ocv... too high a top charge voltage, on warm batts, and too low a top or float voltage, on cold batts . (I do not know the effects of too low a float voltage on warm batts, as I do not float my batts). At the same time, a lower top charge voltage on warm batts can result in higher resting ocv, and yet result in lower SG readings. So there is sweet spot, it seems, where both SG's and ocv have good results, and voltage is not so high that it causes antimony poisoning. Very cold / ever changing temps obviously make finding this sweet spot rather elusive.

But one thing is clear, de-stratification charging 'full', or very near full COLD batts, at too low a voltage, results in much lower resting ocv, and perhaps slightly lower SG's. So my question is, does this also ring true for warm batts? And if so, what is the effect, if any, of charging, to full, with a converter that drops to 13.6v, long before the batts are even near full? Do either the SG's or resting ocv's do well with this type of charging? And how would even warmer temps effect the results, even if that 13.6v was temp compensated? (I now know how cold temps would effect things). Likewise, how does 4 stage charging, i.e; the occasional 'de-stratification' charge, by said converter, at say 14.4v, effect SG's and resting ocv?

NinerBikes
Explorer
Explorer
Camp more, worry less. You'll know when they've lost capacity, worry about it more once the temperatures warm up. Think of the temps causing your batteries, capacity and voltage wise, going into hibernation in such cold temperatures... they'll wake up again come spring and warmer days, if you aren't cycling or using them.

09FLSTC
Explorer
Explorer
Did you think of removing that cloth? Maybe try a concrete floor ๐Ÿ™‚

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Lots of antimony on the negative plates can increase quiescent discharge 500% and completely disrupt apparent linkage of SOC (SG/OCV).