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Which is the Better Battery Bank?

BFL13
Explorer II
Explorer II
Two of these
http://www.wegosolar.com/products.php?product=Surrette-S%252d550-Deep-Cycle-Wet-Lead-Acid-Solar-6V-B...

Or four of these

http://www.wegosolar.com/products.php?product=T%252d105-Trojan-Deep-Cycle-6V-Flooded-Wet-Lead-Acid-B...

For about the same AH? The prices will obviously be all over the map where you live, so pretend it comes to about the same in $/AH.
1. 1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
Photo in Profile
2. 1991 Bighorn 9.5ft Truck Camper on 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 Gas
See Profile for Electronic set-ups for 1. and 2.
68 REPLIES 68

mvas
Explorer
Explorer
pnichols wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
Hi all,

I'm loving this thread. Does anyone know much about the carbon foam batteries?


It looks like the Firefly Group 31 weights in at 75 lbs. and is a 116 AH deep cycle 12V battery:

http://www.bruceschwab.com/uploads/2016-firefly-handout-2pg-1.pdf

That means it's the same weight as the Lifeline, but 9 AH less.
On a boating forum, one person stated that their new FireFly batteries were spitting electrolyte out of the "valves". FireFly replied, "this was normal and it would stop soon". That was the only negative I have ever read about FireFly.

mvas
Explorer
Explorer
I have learned that US Battery ( or their Independent Lab ) does this for their "Cycles vs DOD" charts
* 6V Golf discharge at 75 Amps
* 8V Golf discharge at 56 Amps
* 12V Marine DC discharge at 25 Amps

I am not sure if these discharge rates are specific for only US Battery or are "standard discharge rates" based upon the batteries AH rating. It appears that we have to pay $ to obtain the exact steps of the BCIS-06 Battery Test. Apparently, the specifics are on a "need to know basis" and they do not feel the we need to know how they actually test their batteries. "Trust us" ... wink-wink

BFL13
Explorer II
Explorer II
It could be that the best battery is wasted on you! You have to look at how often you use it and for how many years and the price and so forth to see if you will ever benefit from the better battery vs the average sort of battery in your case.

Then if it turns out you can get the better one for nearly the same price as the average one, then of course , go for it. But don't pay extra for features you will never get to use.
1. 1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
Photo in Profile
2. 1991 Bighorn 9.5ft Truck Camper on 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 Gas
See Profile for Electronic set-ups for 1. and 2.

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Concorde says same .105" plates. Glad to hear others are doing battery tests. But it takes tremendous resources never mind money to really do comprehensive testing. If those pallets of batteries dis not arrive free of charge and had I not scoured the Lockheed auctions plus get the SCE bills paid for no way could I have done what I did. Be thankful for whatever you can get because comprehensive testing is a near thankless job.

Blackdiamond
Explorer
Explorer
Street price for the Trojans last time I checked was under $120/ea
03' Fleetwood Southwind 32VS
Enclosed Trailer hauling the toys
05 525 EXC KTM
15' FE350s Husqvarna/KTM
07 Rhino, long travel, 4 seater

landyacht318
Explorer
Explorer
Lifeline offers 2 different group 31 batteries
The GPL-31T is 105Ah
The GPL-31XT is 125AH
They also make on in the t-1275/ scrubber category which is s slightly enlarged footprint but an inch or 2 taller.
The GPL-30HT is 150AH and its increased weight/ capacity and only slightly inflated CCA ratings, could lead one to believe its plates are even thicker than the gpl-31XT

Most carbon foam AGM info can be found on marine forums. I will be waiting eagerly for more info from poster Maine Sail on cruisers forum or poster CMS ( same marine technician) on trawlers forum about them. I don't expect to be battery shopping for another year, or 2.

Mainesail does perform 20 hour capacity tests with all the special equipment to maintain temperature and amperage as voltage drops. He says the failure rate when a battery tests below 80% capacity skyrockets, and only foolish blue water sailors leave port with batteries testing at 80% or under.

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Thank you mvas.
Concorde says a battery becomes "unservicable" when it loses >20% of rated AH capacity. Unless things have changed this was pretty much the industry standard.

mvas
Explorer
Explorer
Some Battery Manufactures use this ...
BCIS-06
BCI Specifications for Cycle Life Testing of Electric Vehicle & Cycling Batteries

Example CYCLE for Battery Company "C":
* Marine Deep Cycle uses a modified Reserve Capacity type test at 25 amps discharge
* Larger AH batteries use a higher amps discharge rate
* If 65% DOD Cycle then draw 65% of the AH's per the C20 Rating then STOP
* Battery is recharged

pnichols
Explorer II
Explorer II
pianotuna wrote:
Hi all,

I'm loving this thread. Does anyone know much about the carbon foam batteries?


It looks like the Firefly Group 31 weights in at 75 lbs. and is a 116 AH deep cycle 12V battery:

http://www.bruceschwab.com/uploads/2016-firefly-handout-2pg-1.pdf

That means it's the same weight as the Lifeline, but 9 AH less.
2005 E450 Itasca 24V Class C

pnichols
Explorer II
Explorer II
Well, I guess then that when battery shopping one most throw out the "best looking manufacturer's charts" ... then what they're left with is battery weight. It's pretty hard to skew, screw up, or put a spin on that.

The Group 31's I installed last year weighed a bit over ~72 lbs. each. Only Lifeline beat them with one of their Group 31's at ~75 lbs. each. I assume at the very least that means the (most equivalent) Lifeline model was 75 divided by 72 = 1.047 times "a better battery".

Whatawegonnado when we're all using lithium and can't compare by weight anymore??
2005 E450 Itasca 24V Class C

pianotuna
Nomad II
Nomad II
Hi all,

I'm loving this thread. Does anyone know much about the carbon foam batteries?
Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

landyacht318
Explorer
Explorer
Battery A claims their battery will have 80% of its original capacity at 1000 cycles to 50%

Battery B claims to have 50% of its original capacity at 1000 cycles to 50%

Look how easy that was to Skew.

Do you see the percentage of remaining capacity listed on either Concorde or Rolls' data sheets? Or How that level was determined?

Now if there was a standard, number of cycles accumulated say when 100% recharges were achieved at an initial c/5 rate at 77F and full recharge to occur within X amount of time with 14.X as a max voltage, cycled the exact same way, with no room for any variables, until 80% of original capacity was measured, then I might compare results among different manufacturers, and possibly see the data as somewhat valid to how the battery will last in actual non laboratory usage.


How do they determine 50% SOC? Specific gravity, or KWH delivered? Under what size load, what percentage of battery capacity? 20 hour rate, 25? 50?, 100?
Do you see this info listed as the test parameters anywhere by either manufacturer?

If they determine 50% by KWH delivered, do they estimate how fast 100Ah capacity declines to 99AH capacity and make the battery deliver only 49.5AH of the original 100AH for the next 50% cycle?

Do they use AH or KWH?

There are so many ways to skew testing results.

Anybody who believes marketers or marketing literature, in this day and age of 'maximum profit, baby needs a new diamond', is seriously deluded. Professional liars trained to separate one from their money, and eager lemmings waiting at cliffs edge because they got the message something was to occur.

Accumulated lab cycles likely have little to do with durability in actual use, how an Rv'er or a boater uses a battery. No one really bothers to reach 100% SOC promptly after every single recharge, and no doubt the battery in the laboratory did, It had to. And it likely did so at the charge rate which would make their battery appear to be the best. where battery A might prefer double the current compared to battery B due to denser plate paste material or stronger Acid or glass separator density, or perhaps a dozen other factors I remain ignorant of.

If 100% recharges after every cycle, then sulfation occluding the plates is likely not an issue in capacity decline, but failure, or passing below X amount of original capacity, is instead probably from plate erosion.

Not only can there be no comparison from flooded battery from manufacturer A to AGM from manufacturer B, but since we have no idea of the test parameters and what constitutes failure in the laboratory's mindset, which is then to be further massaged by the marketers so the ceo can buy his mistress a new diamond, these cycles until failure graphs are basically meaningless when compared to each other.

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Comparing apples to hand grenades when casting wide-net "6 volt versus 12 volt" statement. Many examples in each voltage. BCI group ID would help. ๐Ÿ™‚

pnichols
Explorer II
Explorer II
landyacht318 wrote:
Can't compare numbers across manufacturers, they do not use the same testing protocol, as there is no standard.


It's pretty hard to skew, screw up, or put a spin on - number of cycles versus depth of discharge testing and it's results ... other than out-and-out lie about it. The same goes for a battery's weight.

This thread reminds me of something: Many folks seem to think that (all other specs being about equal) two deep cycle liquid acid 6 volters in series are somehow superior to two deep cycle liquid acid 12 volters in parallel. I wonder if that somehow superior reasoning still applies to two deep cycle AGM 6 volters versus two deep cycle AGM 12 volters?

FWIW, last year when I was researching for the purchase of two new AGMs for our rig, a Rolls-Surette battery marine supplier in Florida told me that RS was having Fullriver supply certain models in the RS line until RS got their AGM production up and running. I bought an equivalent Fullriver model through a local supplier at that point.
2005 E450 Itasca 24V Class C

MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Explorer
Dart Board Commentary?

R&S L16 plates are almost twice the thickness of a group 31 Concorde battery. It's best to maintain a minimum degree of relavence when doing comparisons. My 2 volt cells have positive plates again twice the thickness of the L16. And each cell holds 3 gallons of electrolyte.

Once again - it's all about compromise. Gain in one area fall back in another. Weight/Lifespan/Cost/Performance

The trick is to find out which battery is best for you. Then how to manage it to best effect.