Forum Discussion
MEXICOWANDERER
Jun 30, 2017Explorer
Like most things, refining Pb or lead is not black & white.
It's relatively easy to refine to 98% purity. But that would be like 99% pure diamond or 98% pure milk.
It's getting the garbage 2% out that costs to the square of the reduction.
Go to eBay or your favorite site and ask for "Laboratory Grade" lead. It will be 99.997% pure or thereabouts. Which is a lot purer than what is required to make a good quality AGM battery. But the cost of lab grade lead is a knee-knocker.
Certain natural Pb mineral deposits are exceptionally pure. Mexico has it's share. But mining, refining and transportation drive the cost up. And suspicious buyers demand random sampling.
Recycled lead is "purified" to the standards PPM imposed by the BCI. Rather than indulge in metallurgy here, suffice it to say the recycled "lead" of today is NOWHERE as pure as it was in the 1950's and 1960's. Minute quantities of Tarlek hyperbole miracle additives may not get sorted out. Thus, US Battery's miracle "Selenium" alloy could end up in a Johnson Controls, or Exide product. The foregoing is an example not hard proven data.
What the BCI would love is 1-2% reclaimed product the numbers denoting antimony percentage.
However if you are under the delusion that a battery is a battery keep reading for my impression of the GC220 (today's moniker is "GC2"...
a) Premium manufacturers use premium grade (purer) lead and control antimony levels.
b) Grid construction is incredibly important because if the grid cure is inferior the paste applied does not "stick" well. Premature failure.
c) Cheap manufacturers use cheap paste. For instance really top drawer paste may weigh 4,000 lbs per batch. The same QUANTITY of lesser paste may weigh 3,880 lbs. Good paste is colloidal to the micron. Lesser paste is not uniform and may contain particles far larger. The paste does not "stick" to the grid well. It may green unevenly.
d) Every batch of 400 batteries being greened may need an optimum kWh of energy and BTU of heat and precise percentage of humidity and air circulation to green the batch. Now. Insert a bargain battery "Bean Counter". Nitroglycerin and Paint Shaker time?
Personally I would like to compare the difference between a bargain basement battery and a good quality GC220 as being similar to what the School of Hard Knocks pounded into my head recently.
Wal-Mart Douglas tires.
$55.00 each
2,000 miles wear. 3/32" removed
Michelin tires
$88.00 each
3,000 miles wear. Slightly less than 1/32" removed.
The only factorial that makes sense with batteries is the number of kWh service rendered for the cost. Cents (fractional) per kWh.
I GROAN when someone throws a batch of off-breed GC220 batteries at me and asks me to "cure" what ails them. Half the time they can be equalized using FAR FAR FAR more kWh than a Trojan or Rolls battery, and then they resume their evil ways (lose equality of specific gravity) 10 times faster than a good battery. Think the customer isn't going to bytch and moan? Think again. These folks drive 20 miles to save a quarter per gallon on gasoline.
Saving a hundred dollars on batteries then investing 300 dollars in time and trouble during their lifetime "Ain't Where It's At". Connected to a power post it makes little difference. In heavy off-grid service, troubleshooting, generator run time, fuel expense and inconvenience is the payback for saving money purchasing a flooded GC220.
If a user is not off-grid oriented, has no experience comparing a good flooded GC220 with a bargain GC220, and has no idea of fuel expense and generator run time I cannot see how in the world they can be a credible reference as to how good or bad any GC220 really is IN COMPARISON
It like a guy claiming "Never owned or driven a xxxxxx but I know they're not worth it - junk - full of problems - uncomfortable - fuel hogs - underpowered"
And Naio...
The first rule of government is to make ones self indispensable. They DO NOT SIMPLIFY the end goal. They complicate it. Sometimes the end goal gets shrouded so in reality achieving it is not really the objective, running circles through endless hoops ensures the agency is kept busy and essential.
CalTrans 1983. Short stint to cure electrical issues in District 9 remote stations north of Bishop. Guy who hired me Jay Adams district manager says "David, you are going to get a lot of flak. Do your job and shrug it off. You are fire-proof"
So I violated Sacramento CalTrans directives. No longer did the International 6-wheel trucks get forced into using a pair of 450 amp hour group 4 3-cell batteries in series. I exchanged them for a pair of 900 CCA group 31 6-cell batteries. Result? The 6 wheel dump trucks with 3208 cat engines started in -20F weather. The station foremen were ecstatic.
Rotary Snow plow out of service because of transfer case shift fork broken. Roads not rotaried. Remove transfer case access plate. Remove shift lever use my own not available at CalTrans Allstate 275 Super Missile Weld rod to weld fork. Reinstalled. Rotary went to work and stayed working for years afterward.
Shop foremen who hated my guts kept trying to catch me goofing off. Sorry. No spare time to good off. Roads need to stay plowed and always a shortage of equipment.
Foreman catches me running the overhead on a Detroit 8V-71 and changing injectors one day (above my pay grade).
"Look. You can not keep doing this stuff. You violated state rules about batteries. You installed alternators rated way higher in amperage than what the specification sheets in Sacramento call for....and....and....and...
YOU ARE SPOILING THE FOREMEN AT THESE FOUR STATIONS!!!! LOOK AT YOU! THIS TRUCK SHOULD WAIT FOR THE LOWBOY NEXT WEEK AND GO TO BISHOP!"
"But, Herb (his real name) they need this truck today to spread cinders" Cinders is gritty volcanic ash used to increase traction on snow and ice.
"WELL WE'LL SEE ABOUT ALL THIS!"
I did not get fired or even reprimanded. Jay Adams actually gave me a hug at the end of my tenure. And you could NOT have GIVEN me a permanent position with a Fiefdom oriented abstract goal waste of taxpayer money that government agency is.
I have made jokes about possible homicide if I had been forced to work at a battery manufacturer or other corporate entity. Believe it. It was and is no joke.
So you wonder about the EPA and lead? First, strap yourself in and go look at how the EPA operates. Then look at their productivity. Look at the real cost of their "supervision". Then go look at closed battery plants and long unemployment lines.
It's relatively easy to refine to 98% purity. But that would be like 99% pure diamond or 98% pure milk.
It's getting the garbage 2% out that costs to the square of the reduction.
Go to eBay or your favorite site and ask for "Laboratory Grade" lead. It will be 99.997% pure or thereabouts. Which is a lot purer than what is required to make a good quality AGM battery. But the cost of lab grade lead is a knee-knocker.
Certain natural Pb mineral deposits are exceptionally pure. Mexico has it's share. But mining, refining and transportation drive the cost up. And suspicious buyers demand random sampling.
Recycled lead is "purified" to the standards PPM imposed by the BCI. Rather than indulge in metallurgy here, suffice it to say the recycled "lead" of today is NOWHERE as pure as it was in the 1950's and 1960's. Minute quantities of Tarlek hyperbole miracle additives may not get sorted out. Thus, US Battery's miracle "Selenium" alloy could end up in a Johnson Controls, or Exide product. The foregoing is an example not hard proven data.
What the BCI would love is 1-2% reclaimed product the numbers denoting antimony percentage.
However if you are under the delusion that a battery is a battery keep reading for my impression of the GC220 (today's moniker is "GC2"...
a) Premium manufacturers use premium grade (purer) lead and control antimony levels.
b) Grid construction is incredibly important because if the grid cure is inferior the paste applied does not "stick" well. Premature failure.
c) Cheap manufacturers use cheap paste. For instance really top drawer paste may weigh 4,000 lbs per batch. The same QUANTITY of lesser paste may weigh 3,880 lbs. Good paste is colloidal to the micron. Lesser paste is not uniform and may contain particles far larger. The paste does not "stick" to the grid well. It may green unevenly.
d) Every batch of 400 batteries being greened may need an optimum kWh of energy and BTU of heat and precise percentage of humidity and air circulation to green the batch. Now. Insert a bargain battery "Bean Counter". Nitroglycerin and Paint Shaker time?
Personally I would like to compare the difference between a bargain basement battery and a good quality GC220 as being similar to what the School of Hard Knocks pounded into my head recently.
Wal-Mart Douglas tires.
$55.00 each
2,000 miles wear. 3/32" removed
Michelin tires
$88.00 each
3,000 miles wear. Slightly less than 1/32" removed.
The only factorial that makes sense with batteries is the number of kWh service rendered for the cost. Cents (fractional) per kWh.
I GROAN when someone throws a batch of off-breed GC220 batteries at me and asks me to "cure" what ails them. Half the time they can be equalized using FAR FAR FAR more kWh than a Trojan or Rolls battery, and then they resume their evil ways (lose equality of specific gravity) 10 times faster than a good battery. Think the customer isn't going to bytch and moan? Think again. These folks drive 20 miles to save a quarter per gallon on gasoline.
Saving a hundred dollars on batteries then investing 300 dollars in time and trouble during their lifetime "Ain't Where It's At". Connected to a power post it makes little difference. In heavy off-grid service, troubleshooting, generator run time, fuel expense and inconvenience is the payback for saving money purchasing a flooded GC220.
If a user is not off-grid oriented, has no experience comparing a good flooded GC220 with a bargain GC220, and has no idea of fuel expense and generator run time I cannot see how in the world they can be a credible reference as to how good or bad any GC220 really is IN COMPARISON
It like a guy claiming "Never owned or driven a xxxxxx but I know they're not worth it - junk - full of problems - uncomfortable - fuel hogs - underpowered"
And Naio...
The first rule of government is to make ones self indispensable. They DO NOT SIMPLIFY the end goal. They complicate it. Sometimes the end goal gets shrouded so in reality achieving it is not really the objective, running circles through endless hoops ensures the agency is kept busy and essential.
CalTrans 1983. Short stint to cure electrical issues in District 9 remote stations north of Bishop. Guy who hired me Jay Adams district manager says "David, you are going to get a lot of flak. Do your job and shrug it off. You are fire-proof"
So I violated Sacramento CalTrans directives. No longer did the International 6-wheel trucks get forced into using a pair of 450 amp hour group 4 3-cell batteries in series. I exchanged them for a pair of 900 CCA group 31 6-cell batteries. Result? The 6 wheel dump trucks with 3208 cat engines started in -20F weather. The station foremen were ecstatic.
Rotary Snow plow out of service because of transfer case shift fork broken. Roads not rotaried. Remove transfer case access plate. Remove shift lever use my own not available at CalTrans Allstate 275 Super Missile Weld rod to weld fork. Reinstalled. Rotary went to work and stayed working for years afterward.
Shop foremen who hated my guts kept trying to catch me goofing off. Sorry. No spare time to good off. Roads need to stay plowed and always a shortage of equipment.
Foreman catches me running the overhead on a Detroit 8V-71 and changing injectors one day (above my pay grade).
"Look. You can not keep doing this stuff. You violated state rules about batteries. You installed alternators rated way higher in amperage than what the specification sheets in Sacramento call for....and....and....and...
YOU ARE SPOILING THE FOREMEN AT THESE FOUR STATIONS!!!! LOOK AT YOU! THIS TRUCK SHOULD WAIT FOR THE LOWBOY NEXT WEEK AND GO TO BISHOP!"
"But, Herb (his real name) they need this truck today to spread cinders" Cinders is gritty volcanic ash used to increase traction on snow and ice.
"WELL WE'LL SEE ABOUT ALL THIS!"
I did not get fired or even reprimanded. Jay Adams actually gave me a hug at the end of my tenure. And you could NOT have GIVEN me a permanent position with a Fiefdom oriented abstract goal waste of taxpayer money that government agency is.
I have made jokes about possible homicide if I had been forced to work at a battery manufacturer or other corporate entity. Believe it. It was and is no joke.
So you wonder about the EPA and lead? First, strap yourself in and go look at how the EPA operates. Then look at their productivity. Look at the real cost of their "supervision". Then go look at closed battery plants and long unemployment lines.
About Technical Issues
Having RV issues? Connect with others who have been in your shoes.24,192 PostsLatest Activity: Jan 26, 2025