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Working solar panel vs. idling panel-what changes at panel?

tpi
Explorer
Explorer
Just a theoretical discussion-

You have a solar panel producing full power to charge batteries. Versus an identical panel on an open circuit adjacent.

The working panel is essentially moving energy from the surface of the panel to the work. The other one isn't. Nothing free in energy transfer.

If you're up on roof observing these panels, what is different about the working panel vs. the idling panel? Is the reflectivity of the idling panel different? Is the temperature of the working panel less? It would have to be something..right? If they were both identical in reflectivity and temperature, then you would be violating some thermodynamic law....?
29 REPLIES 29

Salvo
Explorer
Explorer
The greater the panel efficiency, the cooler it becomes. A 90% efficient panel should remain close to ambient temperature. If the panel is not connected, its efficiency is 0%. It will have the highest temperature rise.

westend
Explorer
Explorer
Almot wrote:
West - if we don't collect electricity from excited electrons, they will come down to their previous low energy level. This difference of energy needs to go somewhere, in idling panel - heat, glow etc.
I would assume that the unbalanced excitation of free electrons morphs back into a balanced state when idling. If the bonds are weak or if the free electron is still "close" to the original structure, there probably is not a lot of energy dissipation going on.

Where I lose it thinking about this, is that this is not a chemical reaction but some voodoo between photons and the silicone structure. They do dope the cell to recover the energy to the cell's circuitry but this isn't a chemical reaction either, AFAIK.
'03 F-250 4x4 CC
'71 Starcraft Wanderstar -- The Cowboy/Hilton

Harvey51
Explorer
Explorer
Interesting! I see the current load on the panel will not change the light absorption properties of the silicon crystal so no visible change. The current carries away some power which tends to reduce the temperature but the remission of light (in the infrared range) from energized electrons that previously didn't make it out of the panel is reduced, reducing that cooling effect. These may well cancel each other out. If there is a reduction in temperature the flow of heat via convection and conduction will decrease and the temperature will quickly stabilize.

It takes a lot of electric power to equal what we think of as a small amount of heat flow so I doubt if there will be a noticeable temperature change.
2004 E350 Adventurer (Canadian) 20 footer - Alberta, Canada
No TV + 100W solar = no generator needed

Almot
Explorer III
Explorer III
West - if we don't collect electricity from excited electrons, they will come down to their previous low energy level. This difference of energy needs to go somewhere, in idling panel - heat, glow etc.

westend
Explorer
Explorer
From Scientific American
"How does a solar cell turn sunlight into electricity?
In a crystal, the bonds [between silicon atoms] are made of electrons that are shared between all of the atoms of the crystal. The light gets absorbed, and one of the electrons that's in one of the bonds gets excited up to a higher energy level and can move around more freely than when it was bound. That electron can then move around the crystal freely, and we can get a current.

Imagine that you have a ledge, like a shelf on the wall, and you take a ball and you throw it up on that ledge. That's like promoting an electron to a higher energy level, and it can't fall down. A photon [packet of light energy] comes in, and it bumps up the electron onto the ledge [representing the higher energy level] and it stays there until we can come and collect the energy [by using the electricity]."

There are other articles that discuss the different materials in use like Gallium-selenide, Indium, and the mix of each to harvest power at the "junction" of the solar cell.

To theorize about the thermodynamic aspects of a module, you'd have to know the available photon makeup and transfer characteristics of the silicone, things that are way beyond my paygrade.
'03 F-250 4x4 CC
'71 Starcraft Wanderstar -- The Cowboy/Hilton

tpi
Explorer
Explorer
red31 wrote:
I object to the panel cooling, I'll suggest that some photon energy is removed/used so it doesn't heat as much.

Goggle

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ye346/when_you_complete_a_circuit_with_a_solar_panel_it/


Thanks-true-it wouldn't cool, it just wouldn't heat as much. But it is cooler relative to open circuit-by the amount of energy exported from the panels as electrical energy.

I appreciate your input on this thread. This is something I've wanted to know more about for some time..

The link is very interesting...

red31
Explorer
Explorer
I object to the panel cooling, I'll suggest that some photon energy is removed/used so it doesn't heat as much.

Goggle

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/ye346/when_you_complete_a_circuit_with_a_solar_panel_it/

2oldman
Explorer II
Explorer II
tpi wrote:
Could you point me to more info on the subject?
If there was ever a subject to which google was appropriate, this is it.

Best of luck learning about it. Not an easy subject, and I have my doubts the answers you seek will be on here.
"If I'm wearing long pants, I'm too far north" - 2oldman

tpi
Explorer
Explorer
red31 wrote:
I like this answer

Now what do you do with the electron-hole pair:


- You can do nothing: It recombines, emitting infrared (which is absorbed and becomes heat in the panel)

- You can use it to drive an electron through the wiring: Some of the energy goes into the load, some in to the panel resistance, and some into the electron-hole anihalation when a returning electron falls into the hole (across a much lower energy gap).


I do think this is the answer. What energy that goes into the load is subtracted from heating the panel or reflected as infrared into space. From reading this, shorting the panel or having it open circuit would have a similar result as far as the panel heating . The short circuit load would be entirely dissipated through panel resistance-and heating.

Could you point me to more info on the subject?

At this point I'm in the camp as you take useful energy from the panel, it cools (or reflects less infrared) to the degree of energy used. That energy the panel is producing has to come from somewhere. If the panel is exhibiting no changes while being 15% efficient at producing energy, we have a perpetual motion machine.

Guys with a whole roof of panels may be subtracting 1000 watts of heat from the roof area when charging those big batteries. Don't know how it translates in real world (some could be reflected anyway), but in theory..............

grizzzman
Explorer
Explorer
red31 wrote:
So the panel should get hotter and hotter till ?


Now we need to bring thermodynamics into this?
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red31
Explorer
Explorer
So the panel should get hotter and hotter till ?

grizzzman
Explorer
Explorer
red31 wrote:
I thought current was electron 'movement'. What causes 'flow of current'?

Well seems to me you would need a demand for current for it to flow?
2019 Ford F150 EcoBoost SuperCrew
2016 Rockwood Mini Lite 2504S. TM2030 SC2030
640 Watts Solar. Costco CG2 208 AH and Lifepo4 3P4S 150 AH Hybrid. ElectroDacus. Renolagy DC to DC charger. 2000 Watt Inverter.
Boondocking is my Deal

red31
Explorer
Explorer
I thought current was electron 'movement'. What causes 'flow of current'?

grizzzman
Explorer
Explorer
red31 wrote:
What causes atoms to move?


The flow of current? Its nothing more then a semi conductor.
2019 Ford F150 EcoBoost SuperCrew
2016 Rockwood Mini Lite 2504S. TM2030 SC2030
640 Watts Solar. Costco CG2 208 AH and Lifepo4 3P4S 150 AH Hybrid. ElectroDacus. Renolagy DC to DC charger. 2000 Watt Inverter.
Boondocking is my Deal