Actual federal weight law rules, some questions and answers

[jmramiller]

I have per the request of a few members, stickied this post. Please note, this is not a place to argue whether a law makes sense or not, just what the laws are. If you have a question about wt laws, that appears to be NOT answered in some way shape or form, please ask, and hopefully some of the ACTUAL weights and measures LEO's will answer, or those with some actual knowledge.

In the mean time, I do thank the OP for starting this thread, altho I have taken the liberty to change the title to one I think and hope will be a bit more informative in name.

marty
TV moderator

Some on this forum suggests that RAWR per the door sticker is legally binding by federal law. Specifically by para f of FMCSA:

(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.

The argument is that the last half of the last sentence "the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower." is referring to the door sticker RAWR.

It is my contention that this actually refers to the "steering axle" which according to my English classes is the subject of the sentence. My contention is to find a standard relating to the rear axle in para f you have to refer back to the first sentence:
"States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle"

I would like to hear from LEO's who might have a comment on this subject. I would also love to hear from anyone who can post a copy of a citation issued for exceeding door sticker weight ratings. A link to the violated code would be nice also.

My only agenda here is to find out what really is and what really is not. I have intentionally omitted the names of those who make these claims because I want this to be about the law not people's claims.

Thanks.

[blt2ski]

Something needs to be pointed out here, SOME states allow up to 20K per axel no matter the tire width. Here in Wa st where I am, if you have singles on the rear, you get 500 lbs, if duals, 600 lbs. 10.8 x 600 = 6480 per tire or 12960 total.

here you RA would be a max of 20K, width total over 20K does not matter.

ALSO, as noted, plate PAID for wt is the important factor. My 2000 C2500 has an 8K plate, I can not legally per say go down the road at 8600 on the door tag, UNLESS, I bought a 10K plate, we buy in 20K increments at about 10-15 per ton, THEN I would be legal to 10K, door tag be dammed! My IHC dumptruck has a 26K plate, even tho door tag which is in office by the way, says 18200. My dually was licensed at 14K.

Another issue that may or may not effect some, HERE in wa st, one buys a min tag of 1.5 times the tare. If you truck comes in empty at 7K, typical say CC 4x4 SW rig with a manufacture plate of 8600-9900. You will have to buy a 12K plate, and you WILL be legal to 12K. A 7K x 1.5 is 10500, next higher ton is 12K.

The only state I know of that uses Rim width for max per tire per say is Indiana, and they give you 800 lbs per rim inch last I checked a decade or so ago...........

One does have to know HOW the individual states you run thru use and enforce the FBLs from a legal licensing stand point.

marty

[sacmarata]

Correct. Plated weight = licensed weight.
Your gross weight may never exceed your plated weight.
This is the biggest violation for carriers under 26,000lbs that I personally know of and for every 10 that get caught 100 get away.

[ShapeShifter]

sacmarata wrote:
No carriers GROSS (truck, trailer, load) may exceed the plated weight of the TV unless the TV is licensed for 80,000lbs and an OW/OD permit has been obtained.

Thanks for the good info! You make me feel much less worried.

A clarification please, for someone who is not sure of all of the jargon/terms, but is making an assumption based on other discussion in this thread. But you know what happens when one makes assumptions...

When you say "plated weight" I assume you mean license plates - the weight that the vehicle is registered for (and which determines the registration fee.) You do not mean the weights on the vehicle manufacturer's rating plate (GVWR, GAWR, etc.) Correct?

[sacmarata]

ShapeShifter wrote:

blt2ski wrote:
If you understand the real laws as they pertain to how much wt you can put on an axel, you would know that

Obviously, I don't know the real laws, or I wouldn't be asking the question! 😉

I've picked up some bits and pieces, but have trouble putting it all together. This thread has been very interesting, but also contains quite a bit of confusing and conflicting information. I have a tough time staying withing the manufacturer axle weight ratings on my rig (especially the 20k rear.) I understand the physical ramifications of that, but worry about the potential legal issues.

blt2ski wrote:
not over 500 lbs per inch width of tire, which is typically 10-12K per axel, you will not get an overwt ticket.

Great summary, thanks! Please double check my math: My tires are 275/80R22.5, which should give me a 275 mm tread width if I understand tire specifications properly. That's a tad over 10.8" per tire. At 500 lbs per inch, I figure that's 5,400 lbs per tire, or 21,600 for the axle.

So I take it my legal limit is 21,600 on the rear axle, and I'm within my limit. But the legal limit on my front axle would only be 10,800 on the front, even though the front GAWR is 13,000 pounds. According to my last weigh slip, my actual front axle weight is 12,240. So I was worried all this time about my rear axle, when it turns out the front is my problem? Yikes! :E

So I guess I need wider tires on my front? I don't think I have room for 315's, but that's what it sounds like I need... 😞

transamz9 wrote:
Floats are the big wide tires that you see on the front of a lot of dump trucks and heavy haul semis.

Thanks! I was guessing something along these lines, but you know what happens when you guess and make assumptions, especially about trade jargon. :S

In many states the legal limit on steer axle is 20,000lbs and tire size is not even considered unless applying for an Overweight/Over dimensional permit. Only then is tire size considered.

So essentially, you could run around all day WITHOUT an OW/OD permit at 20,000lbs on your steer with only 7.5 inch tires and be legal, but once you obtain an OW/OD permit you are illegal.

This is a great example of how complicated weight/dimension laws are.
Additionally, there is Federal Bridge Formula that must be abided by in some states but not others.

In KY:
Max legal steer axle and single axle = 20,000lbs
Max tandem axle = 24,000lbs
Max triaxle = 48,000lbs

No carriers GROSS (truck, trailer, load) may exceed the plated weight of the TV unless the TV is licensed for 80,000lbs and an OW/OD permit has been obtained.

[sacmarata]

The lbs column is calculated at 700lbs per rim inch X 2 (Industry standard)

7.5 R 16.0 LT - 7.5 - 10,500lbs
8.75 R 16.5 LT - 8.75 - 12,250
9.5 R 16.5 LT - 9.5 - 13,300

LT 225/75R 16 - 8.8582677 - 12,402lbs
LT 245/75 R 16 - 9.6456693 - 13,504
LT 215/85 R 16 - 8.4645669 - 11,850
LT 235/85 R 16 - 9.2519685 - 12,953
215/75 R 17.5 - 8.4645669 - 11,850
225/70 R 19.5 - 8.8582677 - 12,402
245/70 R 19.5 - 9.6456693 - 13,504
265/70 R 19.5 - 10.433070 - 14,606
255/70 R 22.5 - 10.039370 - 14,055
245/70 R 22.5 - 9.6456693 - 13,504
265/75 R 22.5 - 10.433070 - 14,606
295/75 R 22.5 - 11.614173 - 16,260
295/80 R 22.5 - 11.614173 - 16,260
285/75 R 24.5 - 11.220472 - 15,709

[sacmarata]

Ill post some common tire sizes, thier cross section in inches and the total lbs per axle.

[ShapeShifter]

blt2ski wrote:
If you understand the real laws as they pertain to how much wt you can put on an axel, you would know that

Obviously, I don't know the real laws, or I wouldn't be asking the question! 😉

I've picked up some bits and pieces, but have trouble putting it all together. This thread has been very interesting, but also contains quite a bit of confusing and conflicting information. I have a tough time staying withing the manufacturer axle weight ratings on my rig (especially the 20k rear.) I understand the physical ramifications of that, but worry about the potential legal issues.

blt2ski wrote:
not over 500 lbs per inch width of tire, which is typically 10-12K per axel, you will not get an overwt ticket.

Great summary, thanks! Please double check my math: My tires are 275/80R22.5, which should give me a 275 mm tread width if I understand tire specifications properly. That's a tad over 10.8" per tire. At 500 lbs per inch, I figure that's 5,400 lbs per tire, or 21,600 for the axle.

So I take it my legal limit is 21,600 on the rear axle, and I'm within my limit. But the legal limit on my front axle would only be 10,800 on the front, even though the front GAWR is 13,000 pounds. According to my last weigh slip, my actual front axle weight is 12,240. So I was worried all this time about my rear axle, when it turns out the front is my problem? Yikes! :E

So I guess I need wider tires on my front? I don't think I have room for 315's, but that's what it sounds like I need... 😞

transamz9 wrote:
Floats are the big wide tires that you see on the front of a lot of dump trucks and heavy haul semis.

Thanks! I was guessing something along these lines, but you know what happens when you guess and make assumptions, especially about trade jargon. :S

[transamz9]

ShapeShifter wrote:

transamz9 wrote:
Actually on the rig in your siggy 18,000 is all you are allowed per axle on your drives without a permit. Now if you was to go to a single drive then yes 20,000. Your front is good for only 12,000 without a permit and then 16,000 unless you put floats on.;)

For the benefit of us non-technical folks who don't know the specs of various vehicles, could you please explain how you came up with the numbers? Start with being more specific about the rig you're referring to, I see several in that signature that you could be speaking about.

And what do you mean by "floats"?

The rig I was referring to is the Freightliner. If he were to be weighed as a commercial vehicle. Floats are the big wide tires that you see on the front of a lot of dump trucks and heavy haul semis. If this picture works, these are "floats" "super singles"

[transamz9]

blt2ski wrote:

ShapeShifter wrote:

transamz9 wrote:
Actually on the rig in your siggy 18,000 is all you are allowed per axle on your drives without a permit. Now if you was to go to a single drive then yes 20,000. Your front is good for only 12,000 without a permit and then 16,000 unless you put floats on.;)

For the benefit of us non-technical folks who don't know the specs of various vehicles, could you please explain how you came up with the numbers? Start with being more specific about the rig you're referring to, I see several in that signature that you could be speaking about.

And what do you mean by "floats"?

If you understand the real laws as they pertain to how much wt you can put on an axel, you would know that tandem axels as the truck in question, the max is typically 34K lbs, but some areas allow 36K lbs or 18K per axel max. A front you can get up to 20K lbs, with floats as some call the tires, or super singles is another. THere is a small portion of the wt law that you need enough tire width also, hence the floats. If you use a typcal 10-12" tire, you get a minimum max of 500 lbs per inch width of tire, or 5-6K lbs per tire, up to 12K per axel. If you have 20" wide tires, then you get the full 20K per axel.

At the end of the day, it is not about how much the manufacture rates the truck for, it is how you are able to spread/bridge a load across the road itself. IE point loading is what the CVEO is taxing and fining you if you get above those loads.

There is no frigen way a pickup pulling a trailer will generally speaking be overweight in how a CVEO enforces the wt laws. IF they have purchased enough GVW, and are not over 500 lbs per inch width of tire, which is typically 10-12K per axel, you will not get an overwt ticket. I've been pulled over a few time at 150% of my manufactures gvwr, NEVER have I gotten an overwt ticket, as I have been under the point load/road bed limits of the law. That is what we are ticketed on, not the manufacture ratings.

Marty

Yes! You explained it way better than I ever would have been able to. I do have a typo in my post that I will correct and that is 17,000 instead of 18,000. I should proof read better. As far as I know the Federal law is 17,000 per axle on the rears unless single axle.

[blt2ski]

ShapeShifter wrote:

transamz9 wrote:
Actually on the rig in your siggy 18,000 is all you are allowed per axle on your drives without a permit. Now if you was to go to a single drive then yes 20,000. Your front is good for only 12,000 without a permit and then 16,000 unless you put floats on.;)

For the benefit of us non-technical folks who don't know the specs of various vehicles, could you please explain how you came up with the numbers? Start with being more specific about the rig you're referring to, I see several in that signature that you could be speaking about.

And what do you mean by "floats"?

If you understand the real laws as they pertain to how much wt you can put on an axel, you would know that tandem axels as the truck in question, the max is typically 34K lbs, but some areas allow 36K lbs or 18K per axel max. A front you can get up to 20K lbs, with floats as some call the tires, or super singles is another. THere is a small portion of the wt law that you need enough tire width also, hence the floats. If you use a typcal 10-12" tire, you get a minimum max of 500 lbs per inch width of tire, or 5-6K lbs per tire, up to 12K per axel. If you have 20" wide tires, then you get the full 20K per axel.

At the end of the day, it is not about how much the manufacture rates the truck for, it is how you are able to spread/bridge a load across the road itself. IE point loading is what the CVEO is taxing and fining you if you get above those loads.

There is no frigen way a pickup pulling a trailer will generally speaking be overweight in how a CVEO enforces the wt laws. IF they have purchased enough GVW, and are not over 500 lbs per inch width of tire, which is typically 10-12K per axel, you will not get an overwt ticket. I've been pulled over a few time at 150% of my manufactures gvwr, NEVER have I gotten an overwt ticket, as I have been under the point load/road bed limits of the law. That is what we are ticketed on, not the manufacture ratings.

Marty

[ShapeShifter]

transamz9 wrote:
Actually on the rig in your siggy 18,000 is all you are allowed per axle on your drives without a permit. Now if you was to go to a single drive then yes 20,000. Your front is good for only 12,000 without a permit and then 16,000 unless you put floats on.;)

For the benefit of us non-technical folks who don't know the specs of various vehicles, could you please explain how you came up with the numbers? Start with being more specific about the rig you're referring to, I see several in that signature that you could be speaking about.

And what do you mean by "floats"?

[transamz9]

dascom2000 wrote:
Now this is a long lived and delightful thread. As I can finally see through my glazed eyes, I come to the common sense understanding that:

1: Do not put more that 20K# on an axle without a permit.
2: Do not exceed the equipment's safe capacity. (tires, suspension, etc)
3: Do not violate bridge and roadbed loading rules where you are driving
4: Work hard to pass the attitude test short of giving up your rights
to be left alone if following the above.
5: Tell me more about how many college kids can fit into a VW bug.GVCW


I am working real hard to not exceed my equipment's limits, I know what they are. If I don't fail the above, might I still have trouble? 🙂

Actually on the rig in your siggy 17,000 is all you are allowed per axle on your drives without a permit. Now if you was to go to a single drive then yes 20,000. Your front is good for only 12,000 without a permit and then 16,000 unless you put floats on.;)

[sacmarata]

dascom2000 wrote:
Now this is a long lived and delightful thread. As I can finally see through my glazed eyes, I come to the common sense understanding that:

1: Do not put more that 20K# on an axle without a permit.
2: Do not exceed the equipment's safe capacity. (tires, suspension, etc)
3: Do not violate bridge and roadbed loading rules where you are driving
4: Work hard to pass the attitude test short of giving up your rights
to be left alone if following the above.
5: Tell me more about how many college kids can fit into a VW bug.GVCW


I am working real hard to not exceed my equipment's limits, I know what they are. If I don't fail the above, might I still have trouble? 🙂

Theres always the potential for trouble. I have CVE contact me frequently asking what to do with a carrier. Weight & dimension laws are complex to say the least and even CVE officers can't keep up with all of em. The above notations are a great start but theres so much more that changes depending on specific state laws/regs.
The most common mistake I see is a carrier loaded in excess of the plated weight and carriers overloaded the trailers GVWR.

Mostly campers get left alone but when CVE officers get right out of the academy, they are ready to save the world and will stop/hassle anyone they suspect might have ANY violation right down to loose ball joints or improper tire inflation.

[dascom2000]

Now this is a long lived and delightful thread. As I can finally see through my glazed eyes, I come to the common sense understanding that:

1: Do not put more that 20K# on an axle without a permit.
2: Do not exceed the equipment's safe capacity. (tires, suspension, etc)
3: Do not violate bridge and roadbed loading rules where you are driving
4: Work hard to pass the attitude test short of giving up your rights
to be left alone if following the above.
5: Tell me more about how many college kids can fit into a VW bug.GVCW


I am working real hard to not exceed my equipment's limits, I know what they are. If I don't fail the above, might I still have trouble? 🙂

[Skalleknull]

gdavidg wrote:

_Adam_ wrote:
Two things...

First... editted... Wasn't inteded to start a flame war.

Second... I have a dodge truck and the RAWR on the door jamb sticker is far less than what the actual manufacturer specifies to to be - In this situation, who is the manufacturer, Dodge or AAM, and whose specification is right or most correct?

what is AAM and where do I go to look at the axle rating for my 3500 srw 2010 Dodge diesel?

Who are the regulating authorities in the State of Washington for commercial vehicles?

Thanks for your input,.

AAM 11.5" is between 11k and 12k from AAM. Dodge derates it for a number of reasons. Two main reasons is Hardware around it and Marketing (Gives them room to grow as the competition grows).

The AAM 11.5" is used on Dodge 2500, 3500 SRW, and 3500 DRW. GM uses a 14bolt that is basically the same axle.