Actual federal weight law rules, some questions and answers

[jmramiller]

I have per the request of a few members, stickied this post. Please note, this is not a place to argue whether a law makes sense or not, just what the laws are. If you have a question about wt laws, that appears to be NOT answered in some way shape or form, please ask, and hopefully some of the ACTUAL weights and measures LEO's will answer, or those with some actual knowledge.

In the mean time, I do thank the OP for starting this thread, altho I have taken the liberty to change the title to one I think and hope will be a bit more informative in name.

marty
TV moderator

Some on this forum suggests that RAWR per the door sticker is legally binding by federal law. Specifically by para f of FMCSA:

(f) Except as provided herein, States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle, 34,000 pounds on a tandem axle, or the weights derived from the Bridge Formula, up to a maximum of 80,000 pounds, including all enforcement tolerances. States may not limit tire loads to less than 500 pounds per inch of tire or tread width, except that such limits may not be applied to tires on the steering axle. States may not limit steering axle weights to less than 20,000 pounds or the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower.

The argument is that the last half of the last sentence "the axle rating established by the manufacturer, whichever is lower." is referring to the door sticker RAWR.

It is my contention that this actually refers to the "steering axle" which according to my English classes is the subject of the sentence. My contention is to find a standard relating to the rear axle in para f you have to refer back to the first sentence:
"States may not enforce on the Interstate System vehicle weight limits of less than 20,000 pounds on a single axle"

I would like to hear from LEO's who might have a comment on this subject. I would also love to hear from anyone who can post a copy of a citation issued for exceeding door sticker weight ratings. A link to the violated code would be nice also.

My only agenda here is to find out what really is and what really is not. I have intentionally omitted the names of those who make these claims because I want this to be about the law not people's claims.

Thanks.

[Wadcutter]

10Ton wrote:

As to the troopers being referred to as DOT. In many states there are Troopers, and then the Troopers that enforce Weights and FMCSR regs. On the door of the vehicles they drive will usually have Department of Transportation, and other info.

My response concerned the "expert" from OK referring to me specifically as a DOT officer. That's what I was specifically addressing. In IL, State Police is not DOT. DOT is a separate agency. I am very well familar with other states. I've worked with enforcement officers from almost every state and am aware of their authorities. I worked closely with and sat on several committees with FMCS and other states' MCS/weight units.

10Ton wrote:
Also, as impeccable as his credentials are, the claims that all troopers or DOT officers will always be correct on the law is false.

I never claimed such. What I did state, paraphrased, is truck drivers sure aren't the people to get legal advice from. If they were so well informed on the law then I and my brothers/sisters wouldn't have put so many out of service over the years and written so many tickets.

10Ton wrote:

Wadcutters other info is great, as well as the other LEO's however he is basing his info on IL regs and trying to convince all that the way IL does it regarding FMCSR regs applies nation wide.

Actually the Federal Motor Carrier Safety laws have been adopted in toto by every state. The feds mandated it and every state has complied. FMCSR were written by the feds and every state adopted them. It was forced on the states. The reason for the forced adoption of FMCS laws was so the interstate driver will know when he goes from state to state he's got the same laws, be it driver requirements or vehicle safety regs. To say MCS laws aren't enforced the same in every state is not at all accurate. The reason the feds mandated FMCS laws on every state is specifically so the law is enforced the same in every state.

10Ton wrote:

Others may add more items to check list in case I've left anything off, and remember, I reserve the right to be as wrong as anybody else.

My other point has been that MCS laws are something the RVer doesn't have to worry about. The RVer running down the road with his 5er doesn't come under MCS laws. MCS laws are "motor carrier" safety laws. The guy in the 5er isn't a "motor carrier". Why some continually insist on quoting MCS laws shows they have no understanding of the topic. If they want to be covered by MCS laws then ask them if they carry a log book, an extra pair of glasses, extra batteries for their hearing aids, carry their medical card, etc.

jmramiller wrote:
I also am not sure what you mean by the Fed label. You stated that in Texas one could not register a truck for more than the Fed Label. If your use of the term Fed label applies to the manufactures sticker (GVWR/gawr) then your statement would be incorrect.

I'm not sure what he's calling "fed label" is but the term "fed label" or "fed sticker" is as you described it, the label often found on the door posts.

[jmramiller]

Ken,

I have a problem with the statement you make regarding an insurance company refusing to pay a claim. If an insurance company could refuse to pay a claim due to a violation then 90% of claims would not be paid. An insurance company could no more deny to pay a claim for being overweight than they could deny a claim for running a red light. Liability insurance would pay regardless of any action taken by the owner of the policy. lein holders would also be paid. I suppose they could refuse to pay beyond that but I seriously doubt it. Perhaps someone could post a link to an article or court case where insurance payment was denied due to actions of the insured.

It is my firm belief that if insurance companies were that concerned about what RVs weigh then we would all have to supply weight tags prior to receiving our policies.

I also am not sure what you mean by the Fed label. You stated that in Texas one could not register a truck for more than the Fed Label. If your use of the term Fed label applies to the manufactures sticker (GVWR/gawr) then your statement would be incorrect. My Texas registered truck is registered well above the sticker GVWR. If the term Fed label applies to something else then please explain. To my knowledge there is no other label on my truck.

[10Ton]

I am not a LEO and will only speak of personal experience and my own opinion as to what I think to be correct.
Anyone can call the state DOT offices in any state as found on that states WEB site, although sometimes it is difficult to get through to a real live person to speak to that is actually qualified to answer your questions.
Texas allows one to register a pickup for whatever weight you are willing to pay the tax for, when using as a company vehicle hauling your own companies equipment(non-commercial), or if it is "for hire" or commercial use and in both cases the trailer has no weight applied to the registration (token trailer tag). Above 26,000# requires a DOT# as do most states. In the case of a private use pickup, it can only be registered for it's Fed label, and as Wadcutter indicates in IL, the RV trailer will have a registration fee for it's own weight rating. I believe Louisiana only allows you to register for the amount AS LISTED ON THE FED TAG reguardless of purpose(not recently verified). Each state will look at your plate and recognize the other's rules while you drive through, however, some states, like California and New York sometimes have additional rules. It's almost like going against the Fed regs, but I'm sure they will argue that they are just more strict and have added additional rules rather than ignoring Federal Regulations, as to what the states are allowed to enforce.

As to the troopers being referred to as DOT. In many states there are Troopers, and then the Troopers that enforce Weights and FMCSR regs. On the door of the vehicles they drive will usually have Department of Transportation, and other info. Most truckers call all of those types of troopers the "DOT" even if in some states that title is only used for the highway maintenance department.

Wadcutters other info is great, as well as the other LEO's however he is basing his info on IL regs and trying to convince all that the way IL does it regarding FMCSR regs applies nation wide. Not so. Also, as impeccable as his credentials are, the claims that all troopers or DOT officers will always be correct on the law is false. Doctors, Lawyers, Judges, and Carpenters all have made mistakes and do on a regular basis. Additionally some laws are either vague or misinterpreted. Otherwise, he has attempted to be very helpful to all in this discussion, and I'd put him up against any on IL regs and how they utilize the Fed regs.

Now, in case it hasn't been mentioned. The tire load rating is separate from the pounds per inch of tread width (or square inches of foot patch) which is usually generalized as axle weight, sort of like . . . the registered weight is only indicative of the amount piad to register, but is separate and different from the weight against the pavement, and possibly exceeding any other regulation. (one can be illegally over what they paid to haul when registering and be legal on Fed reg, tire load rate, axle load rate, GVWR, etc. And visa versa. One could register for a huge weight rating and be illegal on axle, or other limits, As Wadcutter has gone above and beyond to explain. Scale weight is relevant in both cases, but the fines are of totally different issues, different rules) Back to tire patch . . . there is a formula that includes tire diameter and width that determines it's foot patch size when at maximum rated inflation and with it's maximum rated load weight on board. This is how 20,000# maximum single axle weight is arrived upon as well as the entire 80,000 pounds limit, because anything beyond this applies more weight per square inch of pressure against the pavement and therefore more wear and tear on the highway as that vehicle travels along. Therefore, although undoubtedly this will never apply to an RV, big rigs pay for a permit for overweight transport for which the additional money will be paid to the road tax fund for maintaining our highways.
So, technically one could not be over the 20,000# axle weight but have narrow tires that are not rated for that amount. Texas DOT web site clearly state that a vehicle may not carry more that it's tires are rated for as seen in the last line at this address -- http://www.dot.state.tx.us/services/motor_carrier/weight_limits.htm
Wadcutter is correct in that most of the time RV'ers are rarely bothered. It is difficult to comply with all of the rules all of the time. Some states give little attention to RV's and others are a little more finicky, and have rules they simply have chosen to pay more attention to.

What I take from this entire string of post on this topic in order to be more prepared is . . .
1. Go to the scales and know your actual axle weights.
2. Check your tire rating.
3. Check to see if all states recognize your states style of registration as far as per max of Fed label rating, versus as per weight paid for at registration.
4. Be aware that you may need a written statement from your insurance company as to what reasons reguarding weight that they may deny covering an accident, and maybe more importantly, in what circumstances of weight overages will they guarantee to cover.

Others may add more items to check list in case I've left anything off, and remember, I reserve the right to be as wrong as anybody else.

Simply, food for thought.
Ken

[Voyager_Mike]

Wadcutter wrote:

JIMNLIN wrote:
ok we've heard from a state dot officer [IL] on IL requirements,

I'm not and never was a "state dot officer". DOT is a completely different agency than the state police. DOT does not enforce weight laws, they do not do motor carrier inspections, nor do they have LE authority.
Truckers use DOT interchangeably with state police. 2 different agencies.

JIMNLIN wrote:

your rated weight [GCVWR] which is your data plate lists as your ratings, what your axles are rated for, what your tires/wheels are rated for...and dot loves to look at all of this
your "tagged" weight which is what you have declared your ratings to be for tagging.

Don't confuse registered weight with axle and gross weights. 2 competely separate things and one is not related to the other. The only thing in common between the 2 is the word "weight" but neither law is related to the other. It's confusing for those not familar with the law. When they hear/read the word "weight" they don't understand the difference between registered weight limits and axle/gross weight limits. The OP was inquirying about axle/gross limits.
I've explained registered weights ad nauseum in the past too. Registered weight limits are really nothing more than a tax. In fact if you look at your state statute for registration fees it's likely that particular statute is titled something like "registration tax fees". You pay a certain amount of tax, ie registration fee, to haul a certain amount of weight. For example, if you want to haul 8000 lbs in your pickup then you pay the tax (registration fee) for 8000 lbs. But if you then haul 11,000 lbs in your pickup you would be subject to fine for overweight on registration, ie, didn't pay enough tax to haul 11,000. We use to do force registration in IL where if someone as described in the example was stopped then we could force the driver to purchase higher registration plates right there before he was allowed to move further. The increased registration cost was in addition to the fine. Now we just write the citation and if there's a record of additional such violations, particularly if company owned, then inspections can be done on the company and force increased registration.

pupeperson wrote:
I wish you'd add to your comments the fact that equipment on our rigs that actually carry a DOT rating, like the tires and wheels, should not be loaded beyond those limits which actually are enforceable.

I didn't want to get into discussing motor carrier safety laws since they don't apply to the RVer. Commercial drivers should have received the MCS training. For a Troop to be certified to do MCS inspections is a 3 week class and involves a couple of very detailed tests. Weight laws aren't covered in that 3 weeks of MCS training as weight laws is a completely separate course that all Troops get in the academy. As a driver you know how extensive the MCS stuff gets. From front bumper to rear bumper and literally everything in between, including the driver and any passengers. When I was doing the full inspections it usually took about 45 minutes to do a complete inspection and that was if there wasn't any problems. I have done inspections where it took the entire shift to do the inspection on just 1 rig. If I were the drivers in those rigs I wouldn't have ever left the yard. Most of the time the drivers of those rigs were happy to help as they knew there were problems and had reported them but they were told to drive anyway or the company would get another driver. Find those kinds of things and the company gets a visit.

I am a commercial truck driver. And I have been pulled over for a weight check. Several times. And it was never by a Highway Patrolman. Always by a DOT inspector. They do not drive patrol cars. They drive pickups in this state, with some funky lights on top. And I would not dare mess with one of them. Laws may be pretty uniform from state to state, but apparently the method of enforcement varies.

Mike

[wny_pat1]

Mike Up wrote:
While the public at large is protected from commercial overweight trucks, looks like none commercial or recreational vehicles can cause harm to anyone on the public roadways from overload conditions without any legal protections for the public.

How about this? 24 states require all registrants of commercial vehicles to obtain Federal DOT numbers. In some states, pick-up trucks are issued "Commercial" license plates. New York state is one of those states. The minute you register a pick-up in NYS for 10,000 lbs or more gross weight, they want you to apply for a Federal DOT Number. The minute you register with the FMCSA and put a DOT number on your pick-up, you fall under their regulations. If you do not have the DOT number and are ticketed for it you have to appear before the judge and prove that you are not required to have a DOT number. The following is from: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration-licensing/registration-USDOT.htm

"Some States Require USDOT Numbers
In select states (see green highlighted states or list below), all registrants of commercial motor vehicles, even intrastate and non-Motor Carrier registrants, are required to obtain a USDOT Number as a necessary condition for commercial vehicle registration.

(On their page there is a map showing the states that require this)

Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming."

[rsh_757]

JetAonly wrote:
With out Hijacking the thread, how do the manufacturers decide what the GVWR is for a vehicle?

They up it every year just a little more than the highest posted rating of the year before 🙂 Then they remove seat padding, first aid kit and use more aluminum/plastic to make the truck lighter.

[JetAonly]

With out Hijacking the thread, how do the manufacturers decide what the GVWR is for a vehicle?

[Wadcutter]

Mike Up wrote:
Sorry to bring this up a couple months after the fact. Here's what I got from the thread by policeman. Now I didn't read all as I have a severe headache.

You should have read the prior posts it would have saved you the trouble of posting. What you posted is pretty much exactly what I've said all along in this thread.
I enforced weight laws and taught weight laws for a lot of years and was recognized by the courts as an expert in weight laws.
But thanks for reenforcing.

[Mike_Up]

Sorry to bring this up a couple months after the fact. Here's what I got from the thread by policeman. Now I didn't read all as I have a severe headache.

The sticker on the door means nothing. This is just the manufacturer stating the limits of the vehicle. So payload, GVWR, and GAWRs mean nothing legally.

The sticker can be used by the manufacturer for warranty related issues though.

Legally, the 20K, 35K, and 80K lbs come into play for commercial but not RVs. However if a motorhome is grossly overloaded visually, an officer can use the same rules but they'll likely not be close to these ratings.

How about tire ratings, are these used at all?? Didn't seem to see a definite answer to this.

So legally, the registered plate rating is what's used for law enforcement. Hence, the typical 1/2 ton "7000 lb" plate that's common in Indiana.

On a side note that I didn't see referenced, how about a crash/accident.

In legal or court proceedings, can't the manufacturers ratings be used. I know in a civil proceeding, anything can go.

So what I took out of this is that the manufacturers sticker means nothing legally with possibly the tire rating meaning something legally.

Otherwise, the registered license plate weight rating rules all legalities for the GVW of the vehicle.

While the public at large is protected from commercial overweight trucks, looks like none commercial or recreational vehicles can cause harm to anyone on the public roadways from overload conditions without any legal protections for the public.

Thanks for clearing this up, good to know.

Have a good one.

[pupeperson]

Here's a little more grist for the mill. I read the following in the June issue of Trailer Life Magazine, page 108. It is the answer by the "Trailer Life Tech Team" to a question regarding the differences in actual sticker weight ratings on the different, generically similar trucks from the various manufacturers --- Why are some rated higher or lower than others? I quote:

"Each manufacturer has its own guidelines for determining its tow ratings, and they are proprietary. Many variables can determine a tow-rating limit."

I believe the above statement, by supposedly qualified individuals, lends credence to the position that the stickers have little or no import in law, and are strictly advisory in nature --- like the proverbial mattress tag.

Apparently, the stickers have few if any common standards upon which they are based, as differentiated from a DOT tire rating, for instance.

[wildnfree]

I think someone posted way back on page two or three that these Federal regulations only apply when you are on the NN or National Truck Network of Federal highways, unless a particular state has passed state laws to use those regulations on other highways. If you look at a map of the NN there aren't many highways on that map.
If you aren't on those particular highways other regulations from each individual state would apply.

[nevadanick]

I keep it simple, my truck and trailer weigh approx 15,000 so i license for 16,000 and dont worry about anything or anyone else.

[pupeperson]

Hook47 said: "So now Goodyear is making law? Read the load inflation table, you can increase by 9% with no decrease in speed from the usual 55 MPH. Also, can increase by 16% if you don't go past 45 MPH which is usually the minimum hwy speed. "

No. Goodyear isn't making any law I know about. They (and others) do provide tires that match the ratings that comply with the standards (law) the DOT recognizes in which they specify weight, pressure and speed, each of which is a component of the tires' rating.

By slowing down, one may make some modest increases in weight capacity. One can also add some pressure and carry a bit more. BUT (there's always a BUT) this makes your tires carcass far more susceptible to bruising or breaking from impacts they could otherwise easily absorb. Separations are also more likely from the heat buildup within the tire. Also, I know of no one (thankfully) that drives around impeding trafic at 45 mph down the freeway with grossly overloaded tires/wheels. Even restricting ones' speed to the 55 mph you mention in your post is unlikely over time, at least it is in this part of the country (Nevada. Open roads with speed limits of from 65 to 75 mph for the most part.)

It's possible to mount some tires (implement rated) that are not DOT rated on rims that will fit the hubs on our trucks which can then be used to carry tremendous loads over rough terrain at slow speeds, not to exceed 35 mph. But these tires are of little import to the average RVer or even commercial hauler for that matter.

The tires to which I referred are DOT rated at the weight and pressure I posted, including a speed rating of 75 mph, which is far more in line with what people might actually limit themselves to than some particular percentage of overload at reduced speeds and increased pressures you mention.

I think you might be giving the average person who possesses little actual knowledge of how tires are built and/or rated just enough information to be dangerous to themselves and others. I personally wouldn't advocate exceeding the tires DOT rating. Even exceeding the ST rated tires speed rating of 65 mph on my trailer is spooky to me. Can hardly wait to change them out for some LT rated tires I won't have to worry so much about.

[azcamping]

.

[hook47]

pupeperson wrote:

Yes. That is correct, to a point. I believe it is unreasonable to list loads that cannot be carried at highway speeds. I also think it would be difficult to explain those precise nuances to most folks, including those who might give you a ticket for exceeding the weight rating molded on the tire sidewall. Increasing pressures above the listed maximum is normally limited to 5psi and 5mph and applies predominantly to ST rated tires

So now Goodyear is making law? Read the load inflation table, you can increase by 9% with no decrease in speed from the usual 55 MPH. Also, can increase by 16% if you don't go past 45 MPH which is usually the minimum hwy speed. Plus, on a DRW TV, you will be able to exceed the axle rating without exceeding the tire ratings, I believe. Also, I do believe that from reading the various posts by LEO's that they would be the last one to look at an RV'ers tires and write them up!

What I am trying to get across is that ratings are not cast in concrete, and many times are variable depending on various criteria.

azcamping wrote:
"For all of those folks that want the OEM ratings to be law, how about going out and loading your pickup truck (that is the class of truck we are dealing with, right?) to a weight significantly over the door sticker. Then, go find..."

Uh, no.

I think the OEM ratings should at the very least be respected during the warranty period.

So, after the warranty is over you can dis-respect the ratings? This is a post about legalities, not warranties. Also, the OEM would have to comply with the The Magnuson-Moss Federal Trade Commission
Warranty Act (United States Code Annotated Title 15 Commerce and Trade Chapter 50 Consumer Product Warranties 15 Section 2302) and basically prove what you did caused the failure, if there was one.

For those that "respect" the OEM ratings and actually know what they are and what they weigh, that is great. No disrespect to that point of view. Those that exceed them and know and operate their vehicle accordingly, great. Those that don't have a clue...

I find it amusing that we go roundy round every once in awhile on this subject, then it just dies. Until the same folks that ask the question about legalities and don't like the answer find a new way to ask the question. Then we are off and running again!

Oh well, until next time,Merry Christmas, y'all...:B