2007 Navigator No Brake Fluid at Caliper

[rowekmr]

Hello just got a 07 Navigator with 117k miles that pulled to the right when driving then to the left when brakes applied. I found out that the passenger side caliper pin were frozen and pistons kept brake pads applied.
I had both calipers and pads replaced. Afterwards when driving noticed that the brakes took a second to release when I released the brake pedal was released. With the front on jack and spinning the tires discovered that the drivers caliper was dragging now.
I replaced the drivers caliper again and brake hose and cured the dragging and the slow to release issues.
I had the passenger hose replaced and when it came time to bleed got no brake fluid out of passenger caliper bleed screw so checked the hose fitting and still no fluid then unbolted hose and got no brake fluid out of brake line itself.
Where do I start to look for the blockage?

[mich800]

rowekmr wrote:
UPDATE:
Shop diagnosed a bad ABS Pump aka HCU. I just changed on in a Mountaineer so didn't think it could happen again. I actually didn't believe the shop but gave them the go ahead.
New the HCU was 800 my cost (1,000 retail) but the shop found a good used one locally for $75 and installed it and bled the lines. I was told on the Mountaineer that the ABS pump needs to bled itself with Ford software but this truck stops fine.

Only issue is if it sits for awhile and is started the ABS light comes on but all other starts for the day it stays off. Shop manager when told of this believes the ABS module needs to be programmed (they did on the Mountaineer).

I will find out about the programming later this week.

It should stop fine now. But if you activate the anti locks it will introduce air in the system.

[rowekmr]

UPDATE:
Shop diagnosed a bad ABS Pump aka HCU. I just changed on in a Mountaineer so didn't think it could happen again. I actually didn't believe the shop but gave them the go ahead.
New the HCU was 800 my cost (1,000 retail) but the shop found a good used one locally for $75 and installed it and bled the lines. I was told on the Mountaineer that the ABS pump needs to bled itself with Ford software but this truck stops fine.

Only issue is if it sits for awhile and is started the ABS light comes on but all other starts for the day it stays off. Shop manager when told of this believes the ABS module needs to be programmed (they did on the Mountaineer).

I will find out about the programming later this week.

[Grit_dog]

Usually if a caliper is hanging up which is unlikely since you have a new caliper and brake hose, you'll feel it at all speeds and the bad one will be opposite side of the direction it pulls when you hit the brakes.
I can't explain why it won't bleed, but if it stops straight and well at lower speeds, and is only pulling a bit, tires might be suspect.
Maybe try swapping front tires side to side.
I had a recent situation where rotated tires back to front on the old Dodge, tires like new still, truck acted like alignment was bad or a caliper hanging up a little. Pulled slightly while driving and pulled harder while braking at highway speeds. Brakes weren't hanging up and alignment was good. Swapped front tires side to side and the issue went away.
Can't explain it, but that was last year and the truck still drives and stops straight. Tire appears to have zero problems. No vibration, no bulges, nada.

[rowekmr]

We traced the brake line from the caliper to the ABS/HCU and it was all hard line. The lines are not out in the open and wondered if the blockage could be in the ABS pump or Master Cylinder so I decided it's a job for the pros or as another poster stated a Master Brake Tech.

BurbMan wrote:
Rowekmr, what you are missing is that there can be other flexible lines besides just the hoses that go to the calipers. The caliper hose goes to hard line, but then you need to follow that hard line to see if it transitions to hose and back to line again somewhere. THAT may be the hose that is giving you issues. Re-read whjco's post.

[rowekmr]

I done a few brake jobs but this work is being done by a Ford tech who helps me out on his off time. He is not the master brake mechanic though but he's been working on cars for awhile.

He says he only has seen a blockage like this once so I took it to a local shop that does a lot of brake jobs to see if they can diagnose it. My buddy does side work but this looked like a long tedious job so I passed it on to a shop.

The brake pedal is firm and doesn't go to the floor like a Mountaineer we just repaired which needed a new ABS/HCU pump but that's another story lol

The truck stops normal from 0-40mph above that you can detect the truck pulling to the left when you brake hard.

BenK wrote:
Assume you have worked on brakes before and pretty much know what you are doing...if not, suggest going to a ASE Master Brake mechanic

Also assume you are waiting for the caliper & hose to fill up with brake fluid...then it will flow out the bleeder

Is the brake pedal going to the floor? Or is it stopping firmly?

If stopping firmly, there is a blockage

If going to the floor, the fluid is going somewhere (assuming the MC is in good condition)...like filling up the caliper and hose...

[BurbMan]

Rowekmr, what you are missing is that there can be other flexible lines besides just the hoses that go to the calipers. The caliper hose goes to hard line, but then you need to follow that hard line to see if it transitions to hose and back to line again somewhere. THAT may be the hose that is giving you issues. Re-read whjco's post.

[BenK]

Assume you have worked on brakes before and pretty much know what you are doing...if not, suggest going to a ASE Master Brake mechanic

Also assume you are waiting for the caliper & hose to fill up with brake fluid...then it will flow out the bleeder

Is the brake pedal going to the floor? Or is it stopping firmly?

If stopping firmly, there is a blockage

If going to the floor, the fluid is going somewhere (assuming the MC is in good condition)...like filling up the caliper and hose...

[rowekmr]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

To clear things up we did replace both brake hoses. After replacing passenger hose we discovered no brake fluid coming out at bleeder screw, or loosened caliper banjo fitting on caliper nor the hard line fitting (brake hoses removed) with foot on brake pedal.

[mich800]

Grit dog wrote:
Appears OP has replaced both front flex hoses already, or did I misread?

Yes, everyone is giving advice for things they did or not applicable. Appears they removed the flex line and no fluid at the hard line.

[Grit_dog]

Appears OP has replaced both front flex hoses already, or did I misread?

[whjco]

SidecarFlip wrote:
Replace the brake hoses they have degraded internally and are blocked. Preferrably replace them with stainless brake lines instead of the rubber. Stainless won't degrade internally over time and provide better braking power,
.

A real common problem on older vehicles.

x2. Another problem with old flexible hoses is that the interior degrades and restricts brake fluid flow just enough to allow fluid past the restriction when applied but doesn't allow the calipers to retract thereby causing the brakes to drag and overheating the pads and rotor.

However, stainless braid brake lines aren't infallible. I had a total brake failure in my 2000 Ford Excursion when the flex section of brake line between the master cylinder and the anti-lock unit blew out. The truck was 10 years old at the time this happened.

[Grit_dog]

Look at the specific bleeding procedures for your vehicle. Many newer vehicles are required to have a specific procedure for AbS brakes.

[bguy]

Go back to the other end of the steel line. Keep going til you find the problem.
Another thought, is the ABS working? You may have to activate the system to get a proper bleed.

[SidecarFlip]

Lynnmor wrote:
Yep, replace the brake hoses. In addition to normal degradation, hoses can be collapsed by rust where they go thru brackets, especially in salt states. Just think, they spread salt for safety, and destroy your brakes in the process.

Not just the brakes, but the electrical connections as well. Why, every time I'm working on a vehicle I own and have access to electrical connectors, I take them apart (Molex connectors or not) and fill them with di-electric grease