J2807 will help...just a bit, as there are many, many wiggle spots for
the OEM marketing folks to play...my guess after decades in dealing with
specifications and regulatory agencies...and my internal marketing folks
Not automotive, but industrial controls for military/black-badge/gov/commercial/people-movers/etc
All spelled out in the fine print, and not just in one spot, but everywhere
where there are ratings.
Most just want a label to tell them everything. Most do NOT take the
time and effort to go out and actually weigh their whole setup.
The labels are getting better, but I still adhere to weighing it...especially
if you have after market stuff...plus whatever you load in/on the TV
My GMC 1996 Suburan K3500 SLT is listed by the OEM to Calif DMV as
5,250 lbs curb and at the local garden scales just under 7,200 lbs with
me (180), toolbox (+200lbs) and misc stuff.
But folks still believe theirs weighs in at curb. The current door
label listing cargo or payload is pretty accurate. A fellow member
used to work for one of the OEMs and owned that label process. Said
it is computer generated via each option listed. Must be accurate as
it is part of the shipping info (billing by weight)
{edit} pic of my sub
mysub mysuburban K3500Sub
the OEM marketing folks to play...my guess after decades in dealing with
specifications and regulatory agencies...and my internal marketing folks
Not automotive, but industrial controls for military/black-badge/gov/commercial/people-movers/etc
All spelled out in the fine print, and not just in one spot, but everywhere
where there are ratings.
Most just want a label to tell them everything. Most do NOT take the
time and effort to go out and actually weigh their whole setup.
The labels are getting better, but I still adhere to weighing it...especially
if you have after market stuff...plus whatever you load in/on the TV
My GMC 1996 Suburan K3500 SLT is listed by the OEM to Calif DMV as
5,250 lbs curb and at the local garden scales just under 7,200 lbs with
me (180), toolbox (+200lbs) and misc stuff.
But folks still believe theirs weighs in at curb. The current door
label listing cargo or payload is pretty accurate. A fellow member
used to work for one of the OEMs and owned that label process. Said
it is computer generated via each option listed. Must be accurate as
it is part of the shipping info (billing by weight)
{edit} pic of my sub
mysub mysuburban K3500Sub
BenK wrote:Thunderbolt wrote:
Where did you come up with a payload of 2,000 lbs ? There is no way you have that much payload. The tv would have to weigh 5,300 lbs and I know they are heavier than that. Your trailer has a gross weight of 6,813 lbs. That would put the hitch weight at around 800-1,000 lbs. Too much for that year Suburban IMHO.
Easy and most folks derived it the same way...why always advise to
go out and actually weigh it, axle by axle, fully loaded ready to
go camping. Not just the newbies asking for help, but senior advisors
here also don't understand that concept of curb being the basis for
most all the ratings
Take the OP's 7,300 GVWR minus it's curb of around 5,300 and you get
approx 2,000 of cargo/payload/etc...only if he has a curb weight
TV...Curb is the stripper with no options, other than the towing option
and one 150lb driver. Some OEMs use full up fluids (fuel) and some
a partial tankful
Below is a quote from another thread on this with more detail of my
Suburban and get: 3,350 lb cargo/payload over curb
Ditto folks referencing the MTWR...correct, as that is what the OEMs
all publish, but fine print says used a 'curb' vehicle...
This OP will most likely find that his actually weighs in around 6.5K
fully loaded. If each seat belt filled with 200 pounders...it will push
it to around 7K or more
Agree that this trailer will be at the hairy edge or more and suggest
consideration of 4.1's for the diff(s). The 5.7L is capable, but way
down in HP compared to today's ICE's.
Take a look at the below GCWR chart from GM and notice the tow rating
between the 3.73 and 4.1 for the 5.7LBenK wrote:
GCWR is fairly new rating and not listed widely, yet. Also note that many DO NOT
consider GCWR matters, so not many will have that info here on these
forums
Gotta grab these charts from the OEM the year they publish them...as they remove
them the next model/gen...as it is a source of liability for them it something
goes south (all OEMs has something go south sooner or later). This is the brochure
spec you need to get a hold of
GCWR GCWRchart
Generally, it is the curb weight + tow option + one 150lb driver + hitch + MTWR
Factored by components on the TV. Like the diff ratio, etc...also note that aftermarket
stuff like over sized tires, lift kit, etc, etc
Here is an old thread on this using my Suburban as an example
Help Understanding How Factories Detemine Truck WeightsBenK wrote:
This comes up all the time...and most who have not gone through this
before...go away to not talk about this again...deny and argue...or
some actually understand how this works-especially those who went
out and actually weighed their TV
Pure marketing with some reality sprinkled in...meaning how else can
the OEMs do this and still be competitive with the public who believes
the marketing data as gospel...AKA "King of the Hill" or "mine is
bigger than yours"
Reality, as how else can they provide a manageable level of rows/columns/etc
Meaning if they listed every option on a row with a column for the
various ratings.
Like a row for 4x4 and columns for MTWR, Payload, GCWR, etc
Then a row for 4x4 & AC and columns for MTWR, Payload, GCWR, etc
Then a row for 4x4 & AC & power seats/windows/locks and columns for
MTWR, Payload, GCWR, etc
and so on, and so on, and so on...betcha that would be dozens of sheets
and even more confusing than what we have now...where they define or
put into context with the fine print
This is my Suburban, as I've actually weighed it at a county weights
and measure certified (their sticker for that year) to be accurate
enough for commerce (sell by weight and charge money for that weight)
That 5,250 Lb CURB is on the California DMV data base and is provided
by GM, the OEM of my GMC Suburban. Against the VIN number.
These Calif SMOG test reports are official state documents and are
also legal documents that I'd use if I need to prove anything about
the data on my SMOG test/registration/etc
Have noodled what options I'd have to unbolt, cut out, etc in order
to get my Suburban down to the listed 'curb'...There wouldn't be any
carpet, sound insulation, 4x4, AC, automatic, etc, etc, etc
"Test Weight" is the 'curb' weight, not the actual...again, have
actually weighed it at a county weights and measure certified scale
at my local garden centerBenK wrote:
My Suburban GMT400/1996 was before the weight stickers on the the newer
TVs door...
So here are my numbers:
5,250 curb
8,600 GVWR
3,350 lb cargo/payload over curb
My 2014 smog certificate...note that this is an official state
document and the info supplied by each OEM for that VIN...mysub mysuburban mysubsmog mysmog
mysubGVWR mysubdoor mysubdoorlable doorlabel subdoorlable
Mine weighs in around 7,200 at the local garden scales, county
weights&measure certified, with me (180) and toolbox (+200) and misc stuff (+50)
Also has full up option package, SLT, 4x4, big block, and over sized
wheels and tires
8,600 minus
7,200
1,400 lbs cargo/payload
All with a 6,000 RGAWR...that AAM rates at 10,000 GAWR. The 6K GAWR
GM lists is around 2,000 more than most 'half ton' TVs
Oh...also ordered the F60 option...which is the 1 ton front snow plow prep package
My FGAWR is 4,250 and near most half ton's rear GAWR.
And here is the glove box RPO code label listing every option that
my Sub left the factory with...plus I've added lots of stuff...how
many pages would the matrix listing each and each combo of options
take to list MTWR, GCWR, etc...
mysubrpo suburbanrpo mysuburbanrpo
{edit}...here is my 1980 Siliverado C10 Big Ten (1500HD of it's era)
and note the 'curb' vs GVWR
Ditto what would I have to unbolt/cut-out/etc to get it down to 'curb'
mytrucksmog mysilveradosmog trucksmog silveradosmog
Actual weight at the dumps...me (180), nephew (180), bed cap (~250),
over sized tires/wheels, tools, extra coolant, extra oil, etc, etc
This scale also had the county weights and measure certified sticker
mytruckweight truckweight silveradoweight truckdumpweight
vs it's door ratings label
mytruckdoorlabel truckdoorlabel mytruckgvwr truckgvwr
This one addresses diff ratio and how it affects MTWR/GCWR
changing gear ratio? myth?
Wow! So much input. Much appreciated! I'm really learning a lot about ratings and how they come up with them. My question to you is will the new J2807 standard change the game?
Thunderbolt wrote:
Where did you come up with a payload of 2,000 lbs ? There is no way you have that much payload. The tv would have to weigh 5,300 lbs and I know they are heavier than that. Your trailer has a gross weight of 6,813 lbs. That would put the hitch weight at around 800-1,000 lbs. Too much for that year Suburban IMHO.
Easy and most folks derived it the same way...why always advise to
go out and actually weigh it, axle by axle, fully loaded ready to
go camping. Not just the newbies asking for help, but senior advisors
here also don't understand that concept of curb being the basis for
most all the ratings
Take the OP's 7,300 GVWR minus it's curb of around 5,300 and you get
approx 2,000 of cargo/payload/etc...only if he has a curb weight
TV...Curb is the stripper with no options, other than the towing option
and one 150lb driver. Some OEMs use full up fluids (fuel) and some
a partial tankful
Below is a quote from another thread on this with more detail of my
Suburban and get: 3,350 lb cargo/payload over curb
Ditto folks referencing the MTWR...correct, as that is what the OEMs
all publish, but fine print says used a 'curb' vehicle...
This OP will most likely find that his actually weighs in around 6.5K
fully loaded. If each seat belt filled with 200 pounders...it will push
it to around 7K or more
Agree that this trailer will be at the hairy edge or more and suggest
consideration of 4.1's for the diff(s). The 5.7L is capable, but way
down in HP compared to today's ICE's.
Take a look at the below GCWR chart from GM and notice the tow rating
between the 3.73 and 4.1 for the 5.7L
BenK wrote:
GCWR is fairly new rating and not listed widely, yet. Also note that many DO NOT
consider GCWR matters, so not many will have that info here on these
forums
Gotta grab these charts from the OEM the year they publish them...as they remove
them the next model/gen...as it is a source of liability for them it something
goes south (all OEMs has something go south sooner or later). This is the brochure
spec you need to get a hold of
GCWR GCWRchart
Generally, it is the curb weight + tow option + one 150lb driver + hitch + MTWR
Factored by components on the TV. Like the diff ratio, etc...also note that aftermarket
stuff like over sized tires, lift kit, etc, etc
Here is an old thread on this using my Suburban as an example
Help Understanding How Factories Detemine Truck WeightsBenK wrote:
This comes up all the time...and most who have not gone through this
before...go away to not talk about this again...deny and argue...or
some actually understand how this works-especially those who went
out and actually weighed their TV
Pure marketing with some reality sprinkled in...meaning how else can
the OEMs do this and still be competitive with the public who believes
the marketing data as gospel...AKA "King of the Hill" or "mine is
bigger than yours"
Reality, as how else can they provide a manageable level of rows/columns/etc
Meaning if they listed every option on a row with a column for the
various ratings.
Like a row for 4x4 and columns for MTWR, Payload, GCWR, etc
Then a row for 4x4 & AC and columns for MTWR, Payload, GCWR, etc
Then a row for 4x4 & AC & power seats/windows/locks and columns for
MTWR, Payload, GCWR, etc
and so on, and so on, and so on...betcha that would be dozens of sheets
and even more confusing than what we have now...where they define or
put into context with the fine print
This is my Suburban, as I've actually weighed it at a county weights
and measure certified (their sticker for that year) to be accurate
enough for commerce (sell by weight and charge money for that weight)
That 5,250 Lb CURB is on the California DMV data base and is provided
by GM, the OEM of my GMC Suburban. Against the VIN number.
These Calif SMOG test reports are official state documents and are
also legal documents that I'd use if I need to prove anything about
the data on my SMOG test/registration/etc
Have noodled what options I'd have to unbolt, cut out, etc in order
to get my Suburban down to the listed 'curb'...There wouldn't be any
carpet, sound insulation, 4x4, AC, automatic, etc, etc, etc
"Test Weight" is the 'curb' weight, not the actual...again, have
actually weighed it at a county weights and measure certified scale
at my local garden centerBenK wrote:
My Suburban GMT400/1996 was before the weight stickers on the the newer
TVs door...
So here are my numbers:
5,250 curb
8,600 GVWR
3,350 lb cargo/payload over curb
My 2014 smog certificate...note that this is an official state
document and the info supplied by each OEM for that VIN...
Mine weighs in around 7,200 at the local garden scales, county
weights&measure certified, with me (180) and toolbox (+200) and misc stuff (+50)
Also has full up option package, SLT, 4x4, big block, and over sized
wheels and tires
8,600 minus
7,200
1,400 lbs cargo/payload
All with a 6,000 RGAWR...that AAM rates at 10,000 GAWR. The 6K GAWR
GM lists is around 2,000 more than most 'half ton' TVs
Oh...also ordered the F60 option...which is the 1 ton front snow plow prep package
My FGAWR is 4,250 and near most half ton's rear GAWR.
And here is the glove box RPO code label listing every option that
my Sub left the factory with...plus I've added lots of stuff...how
many pages would the matrix listing each and each combo of options
take to list MTWR, GCWR, etc...
mysubrpo suburbanrpo mysuburbanrpo
{edit}...here is my 1980 Siliverado C10 Big Ten (1500HD of it's era)
and note the 'curb' vs GVWR
Ditto what would I have to unbolt/cut-out/etc to get it down to 'curb'
mytrucksmog mysilveradosmog trucksmog silveradosmog
Actual weight at the dumps...me (180), nephew (180), bed cap (~250),
over sized tires/wheels, tools, extra coolant, extra oil, etc, etc
This scale also had the county weights and measure certified sticker
mytruckweight truckweight silveradoweight truckdumpweight
vs it's door ratings label
mytruckdoorlabel truckdoorlabel mytruckgvwr truckgvwr
This one addresses diff ratio and how it affects MTWR/GCWR
changing gear ratio? myth?
