Anyone have floor problems in ultralight trailer?

[EcoBullet]

Today I was looking at a local dealership and a salesman told me they quit carrying ultralight trailers like the Bullet because after a few years the floors get spongy since they are so flimsily built. This makes no sense to me. Our Bullet is not very old, but it has caused no problem, unlike it's predecessor, which leaked through the slide and the floor developed a VERY soft spot and was no older than our Bullet is now.

I think the salesman is full of it. What do you think?

BTW, the Bullet has been a good trailer, but we are planning to downsize since we are now empty-nesters and don't need the bunkroom.

[Seattle_Lion]

WoodGlue wrote:
When you're talking about mushy floors, I'd be willing to bet that 99% of those floors affected are using OSB! OSB and Luaun are a set-up for a failing floor.

WoodGlue

What evidence do you have to back up that sweeping indictment?

[CKNSLS]

myredracer wrote:
One thing about overall floor and frame construction I don't like is with all the enclosed under-bellies these days, you have absolutely no idea how well things were designed or how good the workmanship is. I'd love to see what the joists, frame and everything else looks like under our TT or ones on a dealer's lot, but I can't.

It's great for the manufacturers because they can hide all kinds of problems under the coroplast. They can call the construction heavy duty or whatever they want, but what does it really look like? And if it's related to the frame in any way, they just direct you to the frame manufacturer to duke it out with.

I was at one RV show last year and I was jumping (lightly) on the floor in one TT with a BAL/Norco Ultra-frame to see how solid it felt (I'm not a heavy person either at well under 200 lbs). Some guy came in who I'm pretty sure was a dealer or factory rep. and he freaked out and said don't do that or you can go through the floor. Maybe he knows something the rest of us don't. Not very re-assuring if that's all it takes to go through a TT floor.

Your the exception. 99.5% of buyers will never look underneath a trailer before purchase.

[WoodGlue]

When you're talking about mushy floors, I'd be willing to bet that 99% of those floors affected are using OSB! OSB and Luaun are a set-up for a failing floor.

WoodGlue

[myredracer]

One thing about overall floor and frame construction I don't like is with all the enclosed under-bellies these days, you have absolutely no idea how well things were designed or how good the workmanship is. I'd love to see what the joists, frame and everything else looks like under our TT or ones on a dealer's lot, but I can't.

It's great for the manufacturers because they can hide all kinds of problems under the coroplast. They can call the construction heavy duty or whatever they want, but what does it really look like? And if it's related to the frame in any way, they just direct you to the frame manufacturer to duke it out with.

I was at one RV show last year and I was jumping (lightly) on the floor in one TT with a BAL/Norco Ultra-frame to see how solid it felt (I'm not a heavy person either at well under 200 lbs). Some guy came in who I'm pretty sure was a dealer or factory rep. and he freaked out and said don't do that or you can go through the floor. Maybe he knows something the rest of us don't. Not very re-assuring if that's all it takes to go through a TT floor.

[westend]

myredracer wrote:
I know one downside to OSB is in a horizontal application, it doesn't do well if it gets wet for too long. I have to wonder if a spongy floor sometimes could be due to a water leak. Personally, I hate OSB. It's heavy, it smells awful and it gives you awful slivers. I assume the smell is formaldehyde off-gassing.

I wonder what spans they typically use for floor joists in TTs? If they are using 24" centers, by building code standards I just looked up, the OSB would have to be 23/32" or 3/4" thick T&G. For 16" centers, it should be 5/8". Do they ever use 16" centers? I really have to wonder if OSB that use sometimes is just too thin for the joist spacing? I sure can't see them using 3/4" OSB in a TT esp. if they call it an ultra-lite.

Are you sure OSB is rated for a higher load? It's been a while since I've been involved with the building code aspects but this is from a plywood manufacturer: Plywood is a highly stable panel. When exposed to moisture or high humidity,plywood is up to seven times more resistant to thickness swell than substitute wood-based (OSB) panels. Plywood also returns to its original dimensions when it dries. Plywood is stronger than substitute wood-based panels in the four important engineering strength properties of bending, tension, compression and planar shear and plywood weighs up to 40% less than substitute wood-based panels of equivalent thickness. Plywood is a highly impact-resistant panel and continues to perform even when wet. I wonder if different grades of plywood are used in different regions of the US & Canada? We get a lot of rain around here and I know it's the choice of structural engineers (at least in BC).

Our house is 100% plywood because I designed & built it myself. 🙂 OSB is really common on spec houses and townhouses but rainscreen assemblies are now required on exterior walls which is something that came out of the leaky condo crisis of the 80s.

westend wrote:

myredracer wrote:
Some sub-floors are OSB and some are plywood. I would expect more potential trouble with OSB. Our TT has plywood which is one of the reasons we bought it. I wouldn't buy one with OSB.

I'm not really sure what exactly defines "ultra-lite". I think it's more of a marketing ploy to suck people into thinking their TV can handle the weight.

It's not always about a single material subfloor. Some mfgs. use a composite structure of luan or cheap plywood and foam. Although this type of sandwich construction has a lot of strength along it's shear face axis, it is hard to get real strength through the composite core axis. I would venture that the "spongy floor" complaints happen in high traffic areas, around the entry or in front of the sink cabinet.

FWIW, if your S&B house or apartment was built in the last 20 years, you'll probably find OSB is under your feet. OSB is rated at higher load and water resistance than interior plywood. Mostly true for roof sheathing, as well but depends on geography for that.

I have my own feelings about OSB vs plywood, especially by the application. The fact is that these sheathing products are rated to their use, not all plywood or OSB being the same. Given the same dimension and rating, OSB has a slight edge, mostly because of the void-free nature vs plywood.

In our trailers, you can bet that the mfg's engineers have spec'd the floor sheathing to meet the ragged edge of capacity (in most cases). There have been a few posts on this forum and others about failures of a composite floor. Once the bond between foam and sheathing loosens or the foam parts, internally, there is nothing to keep the structural integrity of the floor. Additionally, it is miserable to repair whereas a single subfloor sheet can be cut out and replaced without the hardship that the composite panel presents.

IMO, there is no place for foam in a floor being a part of the structural, load bearing capacity. If it was as good as the engineers proclaim it to be, everyone that owns scaffold plank would be replacing their aluminum plank with composite panels, tomorrow.

[TomG2]

I placed 1/2" plywood over the high traffic areas in my new Rockwood a few years ago and traded it off when it was two years old. I did not like that "sinking feeling" after a few months of use.

[Seattle_Lion]

I think that the RV industry is a "bleeding edge" consumer of new building technologies. In some cases it causes unwitting buyers of this technology to suffer, like the early ultralights. OSB is a good example of a nice idea that needed maturity. Plywood is a very mature product and most of the kinks have been worked out. However, it is heavy and has structural limits. Plywood's ability to avoid warping and delaminating when wet depends on the cement between plys. Surface treatment is also critical since water can infiltrate through the top or bottom ply.

OSB on the other hand, has the "glue" as part of the structure itself. Unlike plywood, OSB is almost a casting...resin permeates everything. If the resin is not waterproof, then the OSB could literally dissolve. If the resin is water and mold resistant, then the OSB becomes an almost monolithic construction material. Laminated walls, floor, and roof actually make a lot of sense. Our camper has luan, foam, and aluminum sandwich walls, floors, and roof. I weigh 250 lbs and I can't make the floor flex at all. Even the slides, which have OSB over aluminum floors exhibit excellent rigidity.

You do get what you pay for. A cheap ultralight may indeed scrimp on materials and cut closer to the bone on structural parts. I get the feeling that while build quality is still deplorable, the engineering in even economy trailers has improved. Part of the reason is that we buyers can talk to each other on forums like this one. The word spreads quickly when a company makes junk.

[Seattle_Lion]

myredracer wrote:
I know one downside to OSB is in a horizontal application, it doesn't do well if it gets wet for too long. I have to wonder if a spongy floor sometimes could be due to a water leak. Personally, I hate OSB. It's heavy, it smells awful and it gives you awful slivers. I assume the smell is formaldehyde off-gassing.

I called Kodiak about the OSB they use in floors and other places. They claim that there is exterior and marine OSB, both don't suffer from the moisture issues of earlier versions. I did pull away the carpet on one of the slides and saw the OSB. I purposely wet it and let it sit. The water just evaporated without penetration. I realize that isn't scientific, but it does make me feel better.

[DBH_MI]

We owned an R-Vision Trail-Lite with the sandwich floor for 5 years and never had a problem. Other R-Vision owners did. In 2010 Forest River decreased the spacing of the aluminum tubing in their sandwich floors to 16 inches to help combat the sagging floor syndrome. Only time will tell if that was sufficient.

With regard to the OSB-plywood debate, both depend on the quality of the glue to maintain structural integrity when wet. Having dealt with house floor decks with both materials, it is true that OSB will swell more than plywood when wet, but the dimensional stability claim for plywood when it is dry again is pure BS. I have had to saw kerf plywood to get it to lay flat again and have never had to do that with OSB.

[dockmasterdave]

Just checked the gulf stream site. It says amerilite floors are 5/8 thick glued and screwed, joists 13" on center. not everything called an ultralite is "poorly built". Even came with full 2 yr warranty and 12 year roof warranty.

[Pool]

We have a 2009 bullet 295bhs found a few leaks but caught them quick, dried and now no issue. (Window seal, water connection) Kids jump all over the floor so I would hear any hollow spots.

[myredracer]

I know one downside to OSB is in a horizontal application, it doesn't do well if it gets wet for too long. I have to wonder if a spongy floor sometimes could be due to a water leak. Personally, I hate OSB. It's heavy, it smells awful and it gives you awful slivers. I assume the smell is formaldehyde off-gassing.

I wonder what spans they typically use for floor joists in TTs? If they are using 24" centers, by building code standards I just looked up, the OSB would have to be 23/32" or 3/4" thick T&G. For 16" centers, it should be 5/8". Do they ever use 16" centers? I really have to wonder if OSB that use sometimes is just too thin for the joist spacing? I sure can't see them using 3/4" OSB in a TT esp. if they call it an ultra-lite.

Are you sure OSB is rated for a higher load? It's been a while since I've been involved with the building code aspects but this is from a plywood manufacturer: Plywood is a highly stable panel. When exposed to moisture or high humidity,plywood is up to seven times more resistant to thickness swell than substitute wood-based (OSB) panels. Plywood also returns to its original dimensions when it dries. Plywood is stronger than substitute wood-based panels in the four important engineering strength properties of bending, tension, compression and planar shear and plywood weighs up to 40% less than substitute wood-based panels of equivalent thickness. Plywood is a highly impact-resistant panel and continues to perform even when wet. I wonder if different grades of plywood are used in different regions of the US & Canada? We get a lot of rain around here and I know it's the choice of structural engineers (at least in BC).

Our house is 100% plywood because I designed & built it myself. 🙂 OSB is really common on spec houses and townhouses but rainscreen assemblies are now required on exterior walls which is something that came out of the leaky condo crisis of the 80s.

westend wrote:

myredracer wrote:
Some sub-floors are OSB and some are plywood. I would expect more potential trouble with OSB. Our TT has plywood which is one of the reasons we bought it. I wouldn't buy one with OSB.

I'm not really sure what exactly defines "ultra-lite". I think it's more of a marketing ploy to suck people into thinking their TV can handle the weight.

It's not always about a single material subfloor. Some mfgs. use a composite structure of luan or cheap plywood and foam. Although this type of sandwich construction has a lot of strength along it's shear face axis, it is hard to get real strength through the composite core axis. I would venture that the "spongy floor" complaints happen in high traffic areas, around the entry or in front of the sink cabinet.

FWIW, if your S&B house or apartment was built in the last 20 years, you'll probably find OSB is under your feet. OSB is rated at higher load and water resistance than interior plywood. Mostly true for roof sheathing, as well but depends on geography for that.

[JiminDenver]

I have seen people complain that when they walk into a Ameri-lite that they can see the things that make them lighter. What you can't see is a solid floor on 13 inch centers or a frame and construction much like the other Gulfstream products. The things you can see like a plastic sink, toilet or OSB in the cabinets have no impact on our camping, a soft floor under my 230 lbs would.

On the flip side, maybe the ultra light trailers that have all of the pretties inside making you feel good but instead take the weight out of the floor, frame and construction are the ones to worry about.

[soren]

Colliehauler is dead on. In the early 2000s we bought a Trail-lite hybrid, and camped extensively with a couple who bought the exact same unit. These were built with laminated structure on all six sides. It has aluminum tubing spaced at remarkable distances, IIRC 30" on center in some areas, expanded styrene blocks to fill in the space,and layers of THIN Luan plywood glued to each side. The floor was slightly stiffer, since the thin Luan was doubled there. I'm a big guy, and noted that within a few months of regular use, I could feel the floor deflecting between supports. By the second season, it was apparent that the floor was starting to sag, and felt soft in traffic areas.

In 2002 we did an extended family vacation from the east coast, to San Diego to Alaska and back. By the time we returned it was apparent to me that the unit was simply too lightly built for the kind of camping we enjoyed. The frame had sagged on both ends to the point that the lower kitchen cabinets had torn off the wall and there were other signs that it wasn't going to be a "keeper".

By comparison, the other family with the same model, still has theirs today. The only reason it still rolls is that the hubby is a true farmer. As in, nothing ever gets tossed out, you use everything until it's scrap, and if you can't fix it yourself, learn how. This guy took a week vacation to rebuild the floor, including adding a considerable amount of structural steel work to the underside to keep the floor from totally failing, and replacing a lot of luan underneath, as it had significant rot. He also bought a carport to protect it from the rain and snow it gets hammered with, since the roof has developed a significant sag. Unless it is parked with the front or back tilted way up, it pools a lot of water on the roof. At this stage the trailer is significantly heavier than new, and it has no real value, since even a quick glance underneath would make it clear that it is really a patched up mess.

[EcoBullet]

Thanks to all for your time and knowledge. I now feel somewhat better about the salesman. Although he may be guilty of putting all ultralights in the same basket, there may be some truth in his story.

I also feel secure with the trailer I'm looking at, since it is the Keystone Premier, and our Bullet has been fine. Keystone is promoting the Premier as one of their premium lines and I doubt they would risk putting out shoddy products in them. Hopefully they learned from their experience with the Zeppelin.