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noteven
Explorer III
Mar 15, 2014

Are gas engines ever going to catch up?

Our creaky old Cummins powered truck (bought used) seats 4, does about 20-23mpg bobtail and 12mpg towing a 5th wheel trailer at 22,999lbs. It's mileage is somewhere in between hauling a camper and/or towing smaller trailers. 1500 rpm to 2100 rpm in road gear. 1500 rpm to 2300 rpm in climbing gears. It's happy as can be hauling 1-1/2 tons in the bed when necessary.

Nothing I'd like better than to replace it when the time comes with a quiet gas engine truck that will haul 1-1/2 tons, or tow the 5th wheel at 22,999lbs etc and deliver the equivalent $/mile fuel economy in gasoline dollars. I would like it to maintain the hp I paid for at 5000-7000 ft. and not be too frantic in the rpm department every time it sees a hill coming.

Anything coming on the market that will fit the bill?

72 Replies

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gas engines ever going to catch up?","id":"message:1077890","revisionNum":1,"repliesCount":72,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:165179"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TravelTrailerforum-board"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1077890"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077890"},"body":"Our creaky old Cummins powered truck (bought used) seats 4, does about 20-23mpg bobtail and 12mpg towing a 5th wheel trailer at 22,999lbs. It's mileage is somewhere in between hauling a camper and/or towing smaller trailers. 1500 rpm to 2100 rpm in road gear. 1500 rpm to 2300 rpm in climbing gears. It's happy as can be hauling 1-1/2 tons in the bed when necessary.

Nothing I'd like better than to replace it when the time comes with a quiet gas engine truck that will haul 1-1/2 tons, or tow the 5th wheel at 22,999lbs etc and deliver the equivalent $/mile fuel economy in gasoline dollars. I would like it to maintain the hp I paid for at 5000-7000 ft. and not be too frantic in the rpm department every time it sees a hill coming.

Anything coming on the market that will fit the bill?","body@stringLength":"812","rawBody":"Our creaky old Cummins powered truck (bought used) seats 4, does about 20-23mpg bobtail and 12mpg towing a 5th wheel trailer at 22,999lbs. It's mileage is somewhere in between hauling a camper and/or towing smaller trailers. 1500 rpm to 2100 rpm in road gear. 1500 rpm to 2300 rpm in climbing gears. It's happy as can be hauling 1-1/2 tons in the bed when necessary.

Nothing I'd like better than to replace it when the time comes with a quiet gas engine truck that will haul 1-1/2 tons, or tow the 5th wheel at 22,999lbs etc and deliver the equivalent $/mile fuel economy in gasoline dollars. I would like it to maintain the hp I paid for at 5000-7000 ft. and not be too frantic in the rpm department every time it sees a hill coming.

Anything coming on the market that will fit the bill?","kudosSumWeight":0,"postTime":"2014-03-15T05:24:19.000-07:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"tags":{"__typename":"TagConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[{"__typename":"TagEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8b3wxMHxfTlZffDE","node":{"__typename":"Tag","id":"tag:Tow Vehicles","text":"Tow Vehicles","time":"2007-11-11T19:40:46.000-08:00","lastActivityTime":null,"messagesCount":null,"followersCount":null}}]},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:1077890_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":11599},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","canonicalUrl":null,"seoTitle":null,"seoDescription":null,"isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"archivalData":null,"searchSnippet":"Our creaky old Cummins powered truck (bought used) seats 4, does about 20-23mpg bobtail and 12mpg towing a 5th wheel trailer at 22,999lbs. It's mileage is somewhere in between hauling a camper and/o...","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","edges":[{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NjI","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077962"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NjE","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077961"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NjA","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077960"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NTk","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077959"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NTg","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077958"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NTc","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077957"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NTY","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077956"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NTU","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077955"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NTQ","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077954"}},{"__typename":"MessageEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NTM","node":{"__ref":"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077953"}}],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":true,"endCursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8aXwxMHwzOTowfGludCwxMDc3OTYyLDEwNzc5NTM","hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"customFields":[]},"Conversation:conversation:1077890":{"__typename":"Conversation","id":"conversation:1077890","solved":false,"topic":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1077890"},"lastPostingActivityTime":"2014-03-18T20:41:00.000-07:00","lastPostTime":"2014-03-18T20:41:00.000-07:00","unreadReplyCount":72,"isSubscribed":false},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077890":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1077890","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"Revision:revision:1077890_1":{"__typename":"Revision","id":"revision:1077890_1","lastEditTime":"2014-03-15T05:24:19.000-07:00"},"CachedAsset:theme:customTheme1-1744896081453":{"__typename":"CachedAsset","id":"theme:customTheme1-1744896081453","value":{"id":"customTheme1","animation":{"fast":"150ms","normal":"250ms","slow":"500ms","slowest":"750ms","function":"cubic-bezier(0.07, 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@media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n float: right;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline-block;\n padding: $theme-space-small $theme-space-xsmall;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid $goodsam-gray-700;\n float: left;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n a,\n button {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xsmall;\n text-transform: uppercase;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n padding: $theme-space-small;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n }\n }\n\n .dropup {\n background-clip: padding-box;\n border: none;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n list-style: none;\n padding-left: 5px;\n position: relative;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n\n &:hover {\n .dropdown-menu {\n display: block;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .footer-dropup-toggle {\n background: none;\n border: 0;\n padding: 0;\n\n .fa-angle-up {\n /* @include li-icon ($fa-var-angle-up, $pseudo: before, $size: $theme-type-size-base, $color: $goodsam-gray-footer);\n padding-left: $theme-space-xsmall;\n padding-right: $theme-space-xsmall; */\n }\n }\n\n .dropdown-menu {\n background-color: #fff;\n border-radius: 4px;\n bottom: 100%;\n margin: 2px 0 0;\n min-width: 160px;\n padding: $theme-space-xsmall 0;\n position: absolute;\n right: 0;\n\n li {\n border-right: 0;\n float: none;\n text-align: left;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n a {\n color: $goodsam-gray;\n display: block;\n text-transform: none;\n\n &:hover {\n outline: 5px auto -webkit-focus-ring-color;\n outline-offset: -2px;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-terms {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: column;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n padding: $theme-space-small 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0;\n }\n\n > .row {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-small;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-base;\n }\n\n &.footer-terms-order-1 {\n order: 1;\n }\n\n &.footer-terms-order-2 {\n order: 2;\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-bottom {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: $theme-space-small;\n }\n\n .footer-bottom-list-center {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n float: none;\n margin: 0 auto;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline;\n padding: 0 $theme-space-base;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid $goodsam-gray-700;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:first-child a {\n padding-left: 0;\n }\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n\n a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n }\n }\n\n a {\n display: inline-block;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n padding: $theme-space-small;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: inline;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xsmall;\n padding: 0 12px 0 $theme-space-small;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n\n.copyright {\n color: $goodsam-gray-footer;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-base;\n margin-bottom: 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-bottom: $theme-space-small;\n }\n}\n\n#gsFooterSocial,\n.gsFooterSocial {\n background: $goodsam-gray-200;\n padding: 0 calc($theme-space-small + $theme-space-xsmall);\n .footerSocialItems,\n #footerSocialItems {\n text-align: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n text-align: left;\n }\n }\n\n .footerSocialItems ul,\n #footerSocialItems ul {\n list-style-type: none;\n margin: auto;\n padding-left: 0;\n\n li {\n display: inline;\n margin: 0 $theme-space-small;\n }\n }\n}\n","texts":{"custom.footer.col01.text.01":"Home","custom.footer.col01.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col01.text.02":"About Us","custom.footer.col01.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/about/","custom.footer.col01.text.03":"Contact Us","custom.footer.col01.url.03":"https://www.goodsam.com/contact","custom.footer.col01.text.04":"FAQ","custom.footer.col01.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/faq/","custom.footer.col01.text.05":"Site Map","custom.footer.col01.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/site-map.aspx","custom.footer.col02.text.01":"Code of Conduct","custom.footer.col02.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/code-of-conduct.aspx","custom.footer.col02.text.02":"Affiliate Program","custom.footer.col02.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/affiliate/","custom.footer.col02.text.03":"Become a Good Sam Campground","custom.footer.col02.url.03":"https://www.goodsamnetwork.com/","custom.footer.col02.text.04":"Good Sam Rewards Visa","custom.footer.col02.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/creditcard/","custom.footer.col02.text.05":"About Marcus Lemonis","custom.footer.col02.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/about-marcus-lemonis/","custom.footer.col03.text.01":"RV Sales","custom.footer.col03.url.01":"https://rv.campingworld.com/","custom.footer.col03.text.02":"RV Gear","custom.footer.col03.url.02":"https://www.campingworld.com/shop/","custom.footer.col03.text.03":"RV Maintenance & Repair","custom.footer.col03.url.03":"https://rv.campingworld.com/service/","custom.footer.col03.text.04":"Good Sam Membership & Services","custom.footer.col03.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col03.text.05":"Campground Solutions","custom.footer.col03.url.05":"https://campgroundsolutions.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col04.text.01":"Helpful Articles and Tips","custom.footer.col04.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/article","custom.footer.col05.text.01":"Good Sam Apps","custom.footer.col05.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/rv-camping-apps/","custom.footer.col05.text.02":"Take Good Sam apps on your next RV Trip!","custom.footer.col05.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/rv-camping-apps/","custom.footer.col06.text.01":"Customer Service Phone Number:","custom.footer.col06.phone.number":"866-205-7451","custom.footer.col06.text.02":"Club contact number 866-205-7451","custom.footer.col06.url.02":"tel:866-205-7451","custom.footer.row01.logo.text":"Good Sam Home","custom.footer.row01.text.01":"Blog","custom.footer.row01.url.01":"http://blog.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.row01.text.02":"Careers","custom.footer.row01.url.02":"https://www.campingworldcareers.com/","custom.footer.row01.text.03":"Contact Us","custom.footer.row01.text.toggle":"Click to expand","custom.footer.row01.text.04":"Good Sam","custom.footer.row01.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/contact/","custom.footer.row01.text.05":"Camping World","custom.footer.row01.url.05":"https://www.campingworld.com/contact/","custom.footer.row01.text.06":"RV Sales","custom.footer.row01.url.06":"https://rv.campingworld.com/contact","custom.footer.row02.text.01":"Privacy Policy","custom.footer.row02.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/privacy-policy.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.02":"California Privacy Rights","custom.footer.row02.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/privacy-policy.aspx#calinevada","custom.footer.row02.text.03":"Investor Relations","custom.footer.row02.url.03":"http://investor.campingworld.com","custom.footer.row02.text.04":"Terms of Use","custom.footer.row02.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/terms.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.05":"Accessibility Commitment","custom.footer.row02.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/accessibility-commitment.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.06":"Team Member Assistance","custom.footer.row02.url.06":"https://www.goodsam.com/helping-hand","custom.footer.social.facebook.text":"Facebook","custom.footer.social.facebook.url":"https://www.facebook.com/GoodSam","custom.footer.social.twitter.text":"Twitter","custom.footer.social.twitter.url":"https://twitter.com/GoodSam","custom.footer.social.youtube.text":"YouTube","custom.footer.social.youtube.url":"https://www.youtube.com/user/goodsamrvers","custom.footer.social.instagram.text":"Instagram","custom.footer.social.instagram.url":"https://www.instagram.com/goodsam/?hl=en","custom.footer.social.pinterest.text":"Pinterest","custom.footer.social.pinterest.url":"https://www.pinterest.com/goodsam/","custom-community-footer-copyright.text":"© {0} Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All rights reserved."},"defaults":{"config":{"applicablePages":[],"description":"","fetchedContent":null,"__typename":"ComponentConfiguration"},"props":[],"__typename":"ComponentProperties"},"components":[{"id":"custom.widget.CustomFooter","form":null,"config":null,"props":[],"__typename":"Component"}],"grouping":"CUSTOM","__typename":"ComponentTemplate"},"properties":{"config":{"applicablePages":[],"description":"","fetchedContent":null,"__typename":"ComponentConfiguration"},"props":[],"__typename":"ComponentProperties"},"form":null,"__typename":"Component","localOverride":false},"globalCss":{"css":".custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-wrapper_hp49n_21 {\n background: #474442;\n\n a {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n font-weight: 100;\n\n &:focus,\n &:hover {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_sr-only_hp49n_34 {\n position: absolute;\n width: 0.0625rem;\n height: 0.0625rem;\n margin: -0.0625rem;\n padding: 0;\n overflow: hidden;\n clip: rect(0, 0, 0, 0);\n border: 0;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer_hp49n_21 {\n line-height: 1.25rem;\n /* margin-left: auto;\n\tmargin-right: auto;\n\tpadding-left: $bootstrap-padding;\n\tpadding-right: $bootstrap-padding; */\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_container_hp49n_52 {\n margin-left: auto;\n margin-right: auto;\n max-width: 73.125rem;\n padding-left: 0.9375rem;\n padding-right: 0.9375rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_row_hp49n_60 {\n /* HOTFIX - PSDS-32115 - Remove negative margins to fix mobile display */\n\n &::after {\n clear: both;\n }\n\n &::after,\n &::before {\n content: ' ';\n display: table;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col_hp49n_74 {\n float: left;\n min-height: 0.0625rem;\n padding-left: 0.9375rem;\n padding-right: 0.9375rem;\n position: relative;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-xs-10_hp49n_82,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-10_hp49n_83 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-xs-12_hp49n_87,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-4_hp49n_88,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-12_hp49n_89,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-2_hp49n_90,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-8_hp49n_91,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-10_hp49n_92,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-12_hp49n_93,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-2_hp49n_94,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-8_hp49n_95,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-12_hp49n_96 {\n width: 100%;\n}\n@media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-2_hp49n_90 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-8_hp49n_91 {\n width: 66.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-10_hp49n_92 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-12_hp49n_93 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n@media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-2_hp49n_94 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-4_hp49n_123 {\n /* faking it; should be 33.33333333% */\n width: 25%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-8_hp49n_95 {\n /* faking it; should be 66.66666667% */\n width: 75%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-10_hp49n_133 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-12_hp49n_96 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pull-left_hp49n_142 {\n float: left;\n width: 100%;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n float: none;\n width: auto;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-bottom-20_hp49n_156 {\n padding-bottom: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-20_hp49n_160 {\n padding-top: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-30_hp49n_164 {\n padding-top: calc(0.9375rem * 2);\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-40_hp49n_168 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: 2.5rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_margin-left-20_hp49n_174 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: 1.25rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_margin-top-20_hp49n_180 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-top: 1.25rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-center_hp49n_186 {\n text-align: center;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-right_hp49n_190 {\n text-align: right;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-smaller_hp49n_194,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-small_hp49n_194 {\n font-size: 0.75rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-large_hp49n_199 {\n font-size: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-contact_hp49n_203 {\n p {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-small_hp49n_194 {\n @media screen and (max-width: 991px) {\n font-size: 1rem;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_icon-gs-app_hp49n_221 {\n margin-right: 1.25rem;\n max-width: 2.375rem;\n padding-right: 0.125rem;\n padding-top: 0.125rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: 8.75rem;\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_gsi-icon-phone_hp49n_233 {\n margin-bottom: -0.125rem;\n margin-right: 0.625rem;\n max-height: 1.25rem;\n width: 1.25rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-link_hp49n_245 {\n a,\n button {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n padding: 0 0.75rem 0 0.625rem;\n }\n\n li:last-child a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-top-links_hp49n_257 {\n padding-left: 0;\n list-style: none;\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n margin-bottom: 0.625rem;\n font-size: 1rem;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 480px) {\n flex-direction: column;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n li {\n margin-bottom: 1.25rem;\n padding: 0 1.25rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-top_hp49n_257 {\n border-bottom: 2px solid #c7c7c7;\n display: block;\n margin: auto;\n padding-top: 0.625rem;\n text-align: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n text-align: left;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-logo_hp49n_297 {\n max-height: 3.75rem;\n max-width: 8.75rem;\n padding: 0.625rem;\n padding-left: 0;\n padding-top: 0;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-list_hp49n_305 {\n display: flex;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n list-style: none;\n margin-bottom: 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n float: right;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline-block;\n padding: 0.625rem 0.3125rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid #666;\n float: left;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n a,\n button {\n font-size: 0.75rem;\n text-transform: uppercase;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0.625rem;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n font-size: 0.875rem;\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropup_hp49n_346 {\n background-clip: padding-box;\n border: none;\n font-size: 0.875rem;\n list-style: none;\n padding-left: 0.3125rem;\n position: relative;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n\n &:hover {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropdown-menu_hp49n_359 {\n display: block;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-dropup-toggle_hp49n_365 {\n background: none;\n border: 0;\n padding: 0;\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_fa-angle-up_hp49n_370 {\n /* @include li-icon ($fa-var-angle-up, $pseudo: before, $size: $theme-type-size-base, $color: $goodsam-gray-footer);\n padding-left: $theme-space-xsmall;\n padding-right: $theme-space-xsmall; */\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropdown-menu_hp49n_359 {\n background-color: #fff;\n border-radius: 0.25rem;\n bottom: 100%;\n margin: 0.125rem 0 0;\n min-width: 10rem;\n padding: 0.3125rem 0;\n position: absolute;\n right: 0;\n\n li {\n border-right: 0;\n float: none;\n text-align: left;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n a {\n color: #474442;\n display: block;\n text-transform: none;\n\n &:hover {\n outline: 5px auto -webkit-focus-ring-color;\n outline-offset: -2px;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-terms_hp49n_412 {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: column;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n padding: 0.625rem 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0;\n }\n\n > .custom_widget_CustomFooter_row_hp49n_60 {\n padding-bottom: 0.625rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-bottom: 1.25rem;\n }\n\n &.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-terms-order-1_hp49n_431 {\n 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Are gas engines ever going to catch up?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077962"},"body":"
If you think the EB engine runs rich in extended boost, where do the \"extra\", likely unburned, fuel byproducts go? I realise you believe that the fuel is used for steady cooling, but wouldn't that pollute too much? I conclude the EB does not run excessively rich because it is not allowed, and fuel requirements are normal for the power levels involved.
It goes through the cat and out the tailpipe.It goes through the cat and out the tailpipe. That's why we have dozens of post like this. And this is through a cat and the pipe still looks like diesel pipe!

I believe Ford has tuned the EB engine to not require excess fuel during boost and the Ford EB is just as efficient, likely more efficient, than the GM 5.3L V-8 while under power. The 3.5L EB makes 365HP/425ftlbs while the 5.3L makes a competitive 355HP/383ftlbs.
Believe what you want. All you need is a scan gauge and an Ecoboost to find out.


Then we may compare the Ford 3.5L EB to the GM 6.2L EcoTec3 V-8 for power. The EB makes 365HP/425ftlbs and the EcoTec (ET) makes 420HP/460ftlbs. Ford is discontinuing the 6.2L in 1/2 tons, so the 3.5L might get more, yet untapped, power.
I agree, this may be the case.

When at cruise, the turbo merely \"idles along\", spinning freely with intake and exhaust flows. The only impediment is the slight drag of the bearing which robs very little power.
Tell you what, you take an exhaust backpressure test per-turbo and then take a post-turbo test and see if you think the same way.

The final item I can't get by, is the physical fact that the turbo derives all it's power from free, formerly unused exhaust heat. The turbo uses this \"free\" energy to eliminate pumping losses while it emulates a larger displacement engine. The effective \"free\" reduction in pumping losses is why I believe a turbo'd engine can be more BSFC efficient than a N/A counterpart. I think Ford, and some European manufacturers, believe it too.
LOL, this is the biggest fallacy of all. Some really good reading that will explain why turbo's are not free energy.

For now we will have to agree to disagree I guess. I do appreciate the argument, as it helps weigh the truth.


No problem with that at all Wes. I agree. :)
I hope in the future I can supply you with some dyno sheets and numbers.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2014-03-18T20:41:00.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2014-03-18T20:41:00.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":319},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:TravelTrailer/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:TravelTrailerforum-board/message:1077890/message:1077962","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:375251":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:375251","uid":375251,"login":"Sport45","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2001-09-24T12:08:19.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-3.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:41"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:375251"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077961":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1077961","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077961":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:375251"},"id":"message:1077961","revisionNum":1,"uid":1077961,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TravelTrailerforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1077890"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1077890"},"subject":"Re: Are gas engines ever going to catch up?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077961"},"body":"
Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Me Again wrote:
More big gas engines. Chris

PT Boats


Chris, did you see the burn rate? Over a gallon a minute at cruise. :E If I remember right I think it was over 3 gallons a minute for emergency speed (WOT). :E

No wonder the Germans went with diesel in most of there stuff. :B


But they didn't win. :)","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2014-03-18T17:33:10.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2014-03-18T17:33:10.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":319},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:TravelTrailer/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:TravelTrailerforum-board/message:1077890/message:1077961","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:57583":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:57583","uid":57583,"login":"Thunderbolt","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2003-07-03T06:01:32.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-10.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:57583"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077960":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1077960","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077960":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:57583"},"id":"message:1077960","revisionNum":1,"uid":1077960,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TravelTrailerforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1077890"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1077890"},"subject":"Re: Are gas engines ever going to catch up?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077960"},"body":"I learn something new every day. :)

wilber1 wrote:
Thunderbolt wrote:
Exactly what I was thinking. That is why high compression gas engines mad today are run on premium. Premium has a lower flashpoint and todays fuel would not handle that compression.


Not all of them, new technologies are changing that. Mazda's new engines are using regular gas with 13:1 compression ratios.
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post was stupid.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"32","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2014-03-18T03:33:30.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2014-03-18T03:33:30.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":319},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:TravelTrailer/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:TravelTrailerforum-board/message:1077890/message:1077958","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:386400":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:386400","uid":386400,"login":"Jarlaxle","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2006-11-18T05:19:46.000-08:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-9.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:41"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:386400"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077957":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1077957","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077957":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:386400"},"id":"message:1077957","revisionNum":1,"uid":1077957,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TravelTrailerforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1077890"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1077890"},"subject":"Re: Are gas engines ever going to catch up?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077957"},"body":"
wilber1 wrote:
Thunderbolt wrote:
Exactly what I was thinking. That is why high compression gas engines mad today are run on premium. Premium has a lower flashpoint and todays fuel would not handle that compression.


Not all of them, new technologies are changing that. Mazda's new engines are using regular gas with 13:1 compression ratios.


That's hardly new. My LT1 Caprice called for 87 octane gas...with 10.5 compression and iron heads!","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2014-03-17T16:43:26.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2014-03-17T16:43:26.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":319},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:TravelTrailer/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:TravelTrailerforum-board/message:1077890/message:1077957","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"customFields":[]},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077956":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1077956","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077956":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:386400"},"id":"message:1077956","revisionNum":1,"uid":1077956,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TravelTrailerforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1077890"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1077890"},"subject":"Re: Are gas engines ever going to catch up?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077956"},"body":"
Wes Tausend wrote:
Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Good gravy Wes, the writers background that wrote that article is in photography and writing!!
No engineering at all. Nothing. No thermal dynamic's background. Nothing. He's a photographer not an engineer!! His only auto background is he owns some cars with different cylinder combo's and different drive combinations and likes to play with their electronics. LOL It would be like me writing about music because I own several CD's. :R LOL


Here is what Holley ENGINEERS say about turbo BSFC.


Build your turbo or N/A engine here. See if the injectors they recommend are a lower flow rate for the turbo engine or N/A engine. Check it out.


Another fuel injection site that says trubo's have a higher BSFC. See what their engineers say on what size injector to pick.


Anther turbo site that talks about BSFC figures. Check it out.


Another site that talks about turbo BSFC.

All of these companies and 100's more have engineers that know this stuff inside and out. They all have people with engineering backgrounds. All of them.

Now, what are the chances that all of these companies engineers (and more) don't have a clue on what their talking about and the photographer and writer guy that you linked to does? Come on, the answer is 0 and you and I both know it.

There are pluses and an minuses for turbo engines. The plus is they can make a lot of power way down low with a very small engine.

The minus is they sap a lot of power when out of boost mode because the turbin clogs up the exhaust when in cruise mode. The only reason the Ecoboost can be so efficient is because it's is such a small engine when unboosted. Even then it can only barely, and I do mean barely, beat out MOST mid size V8's for fuel mileage.

Here is a V8 N/A that has better mileage and close to the same HP.

I have driven and built turbo and supercharged engines for over 30 years and let me tell you, they are inefficient when out of boost. It's physics. They are not too bad when in boost, but they take fuel to cool them off. Even as advanced as the Ecoboost is, it uses fuel to cool things off just like I do now and did 30 years ago.

What % of the time was I in boost on the street? About 3 to 5% so that makes for a not so efficient engine most of the time. Mine was a turbo V8 so it sucked fuel no matter what I was doing.

I'm not knocking turbo's. I love them obviously and know all about there attractions and detractions! As a side note, I always chuckle when people here ask for a 500 HP turbo gasoline V8 for towing. They have no clue what asking for or what they will get if it ever happens. :B


Turtle,

Sorry, I just can't get by the fact that Ford is making the EcoBoost (EB) work. It's all possible because of relatively new Direct Injection (DI), the key factor missing in all your links above. I believe the EB runs at similar fuel levels as Naturally Aspirated (N/A) engines do. All your links refer to racing considerations, so I understand the engineering is legit for that perspective.

If you think the EB engine runs rich in extended boost, where do the \"extra\", likely unburned, fuel byproducts go? I realise you believe that the fuel is used for steady cooling, but wouldn't that pollute too much? I conclude the EB does not run excessively rich because it is not allowed, and fuel requirements are normal for the power levels involved.


Many turbo engines do, I suspect the EB included. I have seen numbers (hard ECM data) indicating that a Hyundai Genesis runs RICHER than 10:1 at WOT. An owner indicated that long runs near or at WOT actually resulted in soot on the back of the car. The owner of a MazdaSpeed 3 on the same forum noted the same thing after a track day.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2014-03-17T16:41:58.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2014-03-17T16:41:58.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":319},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:TravelTrailer/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:TravelTrailerforum-board/message:1077890/message:1077956","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"customFields":[]},"User:user:200154":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:200154","uid":200154,"login":"wilber1","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2002-12-16T19:57:18.000-08:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-5.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:200154"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077955":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1077955","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077955":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:200154"},"id":"message:1077955","revisionNum":1,"uid":1077955,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TravelTrailerforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1077890"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1077890"},"subject":"Re: Are gas engines ever going to catch up?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077955"},"body":"
Thunderbolt wrote:
Exactly what I was thinking. That is why high compression gas engines mad today are run on premium. Premium has a lower flashpoint and todays fuel would not handle that compression.


Not all of them, new technologies are changing that. Mazda's new engines are using regular gas with 13:1 compression ratios.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2014-03-17T11:03:12.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2014-03-17T11:03:12.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":319},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:TravelTrailer/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:TravelTrailerforum-board/message:1077890/message:1077955","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"customFields":[]},"User:user:88040":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:88040","uid":88040,"login":"Wes_Tausend","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2008-12-04T08:50:27.000-08:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-9.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:88040"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077954":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:1077954","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:1077954":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:88040"},"id":"message:1077954","revisionNum":1,"uid":1077954,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:TravelTrailerforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:1077890"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:1077890"},"subject":"Re: Are gas engines ever going to catch up?","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:1077954"},"body":"
Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Good gravy Wes, the writers background that wrote that article is in photography and writing!!
No engineering at all. Nothing. No thermal dynamic's background. Nothing. He's a photographer not an engineer!! His only auto background is he owns some cars with different cylinder combo's and different drive combinations and likes to play with their electronics. LOL It would be like me writing about music because I own several CD's. :R LOL


Here is what Holley ENGINEERS say about turbo BSFC.


Build your turbo or N/A engine here. See if the injectors they recommend are a lower flow rate for the turbo engine or N/A engine. Check it out.


Another fuel injection site that says trubo's have a higher BSFC. See what their engineers say on what size injector to pick.


Anther turbo site that talks about BSFC figures. Check it out.


Another site that talks about turbo BSFC.

All of these companies and 100's more have engineers that know this stuff inside and out. They all have people with engineering backgrounds. All of them.

Now, what are the chances that all of these companies engineers (and more) don't have a clue on what their talking about and the photographer and writer guy that you linked to does? Come on, the answer is 0 and you and I both know it.

There are pluses and an minuses for turbo engines. The plus is they can make a lot of power way down low with a very small engine.

The minus is they sap a lot of power when out of boost mode because the turbin clogs up the exhaust when in cruise mode. The only reason the Ecoboost can be so efficient is because it's is such a small engine when unboosted. Even then it can only barely, and I do mean barely, beat out MOST mid size V8's for fuel mileage.

Here is a V8 N/A that has better mileage and close to the same HP.

I have driven and built turbo and supercharged engines for over 30 years and let me tell you, they are inefficient when out of boost. It's physics. They are not too bad when in boost, but they take fuel to cool them off. Even as advanced as the Ecoboost is, it uses fuel to cool things off just like I do now and did 30 years ago.

What % of the time was I in boost on the street? About 3 to 5% so that makes for a not so efficient engine most of the time. Mine was a turbo V8 so it sucked fuel no matter what I was doing.

I'm not knocking turbo's. I love them obviously and know all about there attractions and detractions! As a side note, I always chuckle when people here ask for a 500 HP turbo gasoline V8 for towing. They have no clue what asking for or what they will get if it ever happens. :B


Turtle,

Sorry, I just can't get by the fact that Ford is making the EcoBoost (EB) work. It's all possible because of relatively new Direct Injection (DI), the key factor missing in all your links above. I believe the EB runs at similar fuel levels as Naturally Aspirated (N/A) engines do. All your links refer to racing considerations, so I understand the engineering is legit for that perspective.

If you think the EB engine runs rich in extended boost, where do the \"extra\", likely unburned, fuel byproducts go? I realise you believe that the fuel is used for steady cooling, but wouldn't that pollute too much? I conclude the EB does not run excessively rich because it is not allowed, and fuel requirements are normal for the power levels involved.

I believe Ford has tuned the EB engine to not require excess fuel during boost and the Ford EB is just as efficient, likely more efficient, than the GM 5.3L V-8 while under power. The 3.5L EB makes 365HP/425ftlbs while the 5.3L makes a competitive 355HP/383ftlbs.

While not under power, the GM 5.3L is running more efficiently on four cylinders, or 2.65L. Perhaps Ford feels the 2.7L EB will equal this mpg (not yet released) since the effective easy-cruise displacement is nearly equal. I concede the yet unreleased 2.7L EB will not likely match the 5.3L power. But Ford may still be able to claim the coveted \"Best mileage in Class\".

Then we may compare the Ford 3.5L EB to the GM 6.2L EcoTec3 V-8 for power. The EB makes 365HP/425ftlbs and the EcoTec (ET) makes 420HP/460ftlbs. Ford is discontinuing the 6.2L in 1/2 tons, so the 3.5L might get more, yet untapped, power.

When at cruise, the turbo merely \"idles along\", spinning freely with intake and exhaust flows. The only impediment is the slight drag of the bearing which robs very little power.

The final item I can't get by, is the physical fact that the turbo derives all it's power from free, formerly unused exhaust heat. The turbo uses this \"free\" energy to eliminate pumping losses while it emulates a larger displacement engine. The effective \"free\" reduction in pumping losses is why I believe a turbo'd engine can be more BSFC efficient than a N/A counterpart. I think Ford, and some European manufacturers, believe it too.

For now we will have to agree to disagree I guess. I do appreciate the argument, as it helps weigh the truth.

Wes
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Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Me Again wrote:
More big gas engines. Chris

PT Boats


Chris, did you see the burn rate? Over a gallon a minute at cruise. :E If I remember right I think it was over 3 gallons a minute for emergency speed (WOT). :E

No wonder the Germans went with diesel in most of there stuff. :B


PT boats did much better than the Sterlings in the CG Cutters. 83' Cutter 60 GPH/Engine to 18.5 knots. PT Boat 66 GPH/Engine to do 35 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