Camper and Skiing

[CptSydor]

Last summer, after spending many nights traveling around, mainly for mountain biking with our TT (300+ nights in 5-6 years), we wanted a bit less luxury and more flexibility/options and moved over to a truck camper. Ended up finding a 1983 Bigfoot which matched my F150 well (1000lbs stock/dry). It was a cheap experiment. I gutted it and rebuilt it as essentially a hard shell tent for basic camping (still in progress). It's worked well, the comforts are obviously down compared to our 25ft TT (that I had set up with SOLAR, etc), but the places we can access are incredible.

I think we are hooked on the camper life. Actually, I'd really like to get into the Van life, but having at least AWD, preferably 4x4 is essentially mandatory where I live and want to travel. After doing the rebuild of my camper, I am also not really interested in building up a van, even if I could find/convert something in AWD/4x4.

Last weekend we did our first winter camping trip for some backcountry ski touring and visiting friends skiing at a resort 5 hours up the road. It was great, but obviously heating/drying out stuff was tough. I had my small 1000w honda generator running a small space heater (on low) and a small buddy heater running before bed, or during breakfast. Nothing running during the night, mainly for security on the generator and even with a CO detector, wasn't a fan of the buddy heater running over night (being a voly firefighter and chemist). Condensation was a problem.

So moving forward, I'm seriously considering 'moving' up. That will be a F350/3500 SRW truck and buying an appropriate 4 season truck camper.
Just here asking for advice from those who travel during the winter months with a factory camper. Our winter trips would likely be 3-7 days.

How are you dealing with heating? Ideally we are camping without services, but obviously paying to plug in for a couple nights might have to be a reality (not that hard to find in ski towns). Biggest battery bank you can get to last 3-4 nights (400 amp/hr)? Solar seems to be very ineffective in winter. Install a secondary heater that doesn't require a fan? Ski storage? We aren't adverse to sleeping at below freezing (-10 seems to a limit), but we need to be comfortable and heat up the camper now and then, especially to dry stuff out.

Any advice is appreciated. Slowly combining everything I'm reading to make the best choices for us.

[ticki2]

free radical wrote:
Fwiw
I find rather silly people sugesting leaving the windows open to get the moisture out.
Heating great outdoors is not my cuppa tea.
Drawbacks of using propane I guess

Why not get a heater that blows DRY hot air in the first place.

I use Espar,dry heat and very eficient..although bit pricey

Now fortunately theres much cheaper Chinese diesel available that is exact copy of Espar,so should work just as well hopefully.
many RVers convert their rigs to use them

https://youtu.be/ogLmROa1o9E

https://youtu.be/3j5qW9kKBLM

It’s not the traditional propane heater that is causing the moisture , they are vented outdoors , it’s the occupants and the cooking and the washing . Espar is a nice system but it doesn’t solve the moisture problem .

[Kayteg1]

Campers have ventilation naturally.
I parted old camper and when I did notice earlier that electric cable box was venting the air under bathroom sink, it took parting out to notice big floor holes around the drainage pipes, who were never sealed.
I installed Chinese diesel heater in my latest conversion. They are very energy saving and quiet.
When propane heater makes coming on and off rocket, diesel heater adjust the speed depends on heat demand, idling slowly when heat is on low demand.
Have seen motorhome owners installing it with small tank that comes with it. When some smell can be an issue, you are avoiding low temperature issues and can fill it with 50-50 mix of kerosene/diesel.

[arto_wa]

free radical wrote:
Fwiw
I find rather silly people sugesting leaving the windows open to get the moisture out.
Heating great outdoors is not my cuppa tea.
Drawbacks of using propane I guess

Why not get a heater that blows DRY hot air in the first place.

I use Espar,dry heat and very eficient..although bit pricey

Now fortunately theres much cheaper Chinese diesel available that is exact copy of Espar,so should work just as well hopefully.
many RVers convert their rigs to use them

https://youtu.be/ogLmROa1o9E

https://youtu.be/3j5qW9kKBLM

Espar type Diesel heaters are great, but what's wrong with having some ventilation - are you against it?

[free_radical]

Fwiw
I find rather silly people sugesting leaving the windows open to get the moisture out.
Heating great outdoors is not my cuppa tea.
Drawbacks of using propane I guess

Why not get a heater that blows DRY hot air in the first place.

I use Espar,dry heat and very eficient..although bit pricey

Now fortunately theres much cheaper Chinese diesel available that is exact copy of Espar,so should work just as well hopefully.
many RVers convert their rigs to use them

https://youtu.be/ogLmROa1o9E

https://youtu.be/3j5qW9kKBLM

[smooth1]

The best alarm clocks are the ski patrol guys doing avalanche control work at 7am while you are nice and cozy in the resort parking lot.

Heat and batteries are the two big issues. You will find places for your skis inside your camper or truck, or outside under the vehicle.

A lot of campers/trailers use the catalytic (buddy style) heaters and leave two windows cracked open which really saves your batteries. You have to leave one or two windows open anyway or the condensation from the gear drying and you breathing will collect on the ceiling and drip.

We just use the camper furnace for our heat, and two group 31 batteries is plenty of amps for one night. For the second night we run the generator for two hours to give the batteries a quick charge for the second night.


Another note: we went to Stevens Pass last month and it looks like Vail Resorts is going to convert their RV lot to car parking. Not sure if there will be RV parking up there anymore.

[bb_94401]

CptSydor --

While my goal was to have my truck and TC setup to handle whatever weather came my way, be self sufficent, and have all the comforts of full utilities, it took lots of iterations and improvements to get there.

Initially I was like the majority of RVs that you see at various ski areas over a weekend. Fully winterized, lines drained and only using the heater. Basically camping in the TC and using bathrooms at the ski resort.

What showed whether the changes I had made would allow me to safely start using more utilities, in what conditions, was using several wireless (actual/min/max) thermometers and a good battery monitor like a Trimetric. Nothing like data under various conditions with my TC setup vs. peoples opinions on what to do and whether it was effective.

Initially just identify the coldest / vunerable areas inside the TC with multiple thermometers. A FLIR infrared camera would be very useful, if you had access to one, but it is pretty easy to feel the cold drafts, when it is blowing outside.

After finding the coldest spot, then monitor the min/max for the inside temp., outside temp, the coldest spot, along with how many A-hr were used over a weeked under various conditions. A-hr used for the weekend will give you an idea of battery bank size needed. A-hr also acts as a surrogate for propane use, if you are running LED lights. Alternately you can just weight the tanks before heading out and after returning on a bathroom digital scale, or some other way of assessing propane level in the tank.

If you frequent ski areas that have reserved electrical hookups, or you have enough generator capacity to run two 1500W supplemental electrical heaters (one for the basement), you can start using water and see how it goes. Alternately, if you live in snow country, you can set temperature alarms, experiment and gather lots of information in your own driveway. In addition to using the search fucntion on this forum, take the time to talk to the other RVs in the parking lot and ask what problems they have had and how they solved them.

Finally, the rule of thumb for survival when exposed to extreme environments is 3-4 hours. You'll need plans/equipment for various contingencies. You'll find that cell phone coverage is spotty at best for a lot of the highways and roads to ski areas in northwest US and Canada. A SPOT, PLB (personal locator beacon, FastFind or ResqLink) or Garmin InReach will allow you to contact Search and Resque personnel in case of a life threatening emergency for yourself or others.

[billtex]

Ski camping rocks;

[bcbigfoot]

Thanks for looking that up bb_94401, I had no idea they made such a critter. But yeh at that price other alternatives look attrative, I've also tossed around the idea of the Platnum Cat http://www.ventedcatheater.com/ unfortunately I don't have a real good place to install it.

[bb_94401]

bcbigfoot wrote:
... I have played with the idea of warping the propane tanks in a battery warmer and powering them from the 1000 watt inverter installed in the camper. ...

For tanks they do make thermostatically controlled heat blankets

A company Power Blanket makes these for cylinders as small as 20# and 30# and have dealt with the safety issue.



Unfortunately my propane compartment is so small there is no room to fit these onto the tanks. They are pricey. Two of these are equivalent in price to the Webasto Air Top 2000 STC diesel air heater price.

[bcbigfoot]

Great advice from bb-94401, I don't ski however I do alot of winter and spring fall boondocking. As bb-94401 pointed out keeping propane vaporizing at 10f and below at the rate my 30000 btu furnace uses can be a issue, I mostly solved this by getting rid of the auto change-over valve and just teeing the two tanks together, not a perfect solution if you run out of propane. I have played with the idea of warping the propane tanks in a battery warmer and powering them from the 1000 watt inverter installed in the camper. Safety issues are a concern, however I think back to when my Father would use a tiger torch to heat up propane tanks to keep the propane vaporizing in -40 weather in northern Saskatchewan, I'm such a wimp these days lol.

The other problem was cold batteries, so I installed AGM batteries and opened up the batery box to cabin air temps.. I don't remeber exact numbers but your batteries lose 25% of thier amp hr cap. going from 70f down to 10f or 0f, since you should only use the top 50% of your battery cap. you really lose half of your available amp hrs. to cold batteries. Also batteries recharge very very slowly when cold. Warm batteries will recharge in 1/4 of the time, which means much less generator run time.

[Photomike]

bb_94401 Be careful out there windchill down to -40 tonight, tomorrow and tomorrow night. Was suppose to be out that way shooting this weekend but way to cold.

[CptSydor]

bb_94401 wrote:
Turned into a long post ...

One of the things we like best about our camper is the dry bath, located near the entrance. All the wet clothes get hung up on spring loaded curtain rods, while suction cup hooks hold goggles, helmets, neck gaiters, gloves and hats in the shower. A plastic box with dry-dec tiles in the bottom holds the ski boots and let the snow and parking lot dirt/sand come off without messing up the bottom of the shower. Open the bathroom vent, shut the bathroom door and crankup the propane heater to dry everything and have all the moisture exit the TC. Place the boots in front of the heater outlet in the morning. Nothing like warm ski boots for ease of getting into and first runs on cold days.

The tray in the basement holds the active skis and poles, while additional skis are held against the wall in the shower using spring loaded curtain rods with pipe insulation around them.

We run with full utilities all winter with the 22,000 BTU furnance set at 70 F all the time, heat is ducted to the basement which stays at >45 F when it is -10 F outside. Road trips are 2-3 weeks. The rest of the time the TC sits in a heated garage.

Whatever TC you settle on, get one with a winter package (double pane windowns / skylights / vent covers, more wall insulation, insulated heated basement). Even then you will need to add insulation and plug up the holes in the TC like the Range vent, the AC and uninsulated cord and propane compartments. Then at night temporarily add insulation to the windows, skylights, ceiling vents and door. That way the furnace runs less, you conserve propane and you can get by with smaller battery banks. If I were looking I'd add a non slide 10-8 Citation to the TC suggestions above.

An issue with below zero winter camping is that even with a high output furnace the vaporization rate of propane depends on the outside temperature, the wetted surface area of the propane in the tank and the humidy of the air around the tank. Just going from a full tank to 1/2 full reduces the vaporiztion rate by 2x (3x at 1/4 full) even at 60 F, but it still is enough to supply the rated BTU output of the heater. However, drop the temperature to 0 F with a 1/4 full tank and the vaporization rate can only supply 1/3 of the BTUs. At -10 F it supplies <1/4 of the BTUs. At -20 F it supplies <1/10 of the furnace BTU rating. The equivalent of turning down the gas range from High to Simmer. The net result is that the furnace needs to run longer, meaning you need a larger battery bank to keep it running. I have 440 Ahr of AGM 6 VDC batteries in two banks inside the warm space of the camper. Higher recharge rates vs. flooded batteries. Less likely to suffer freeze damage if batteries are at a low state of charge.

Depending on how insulated your camper is and how cold it is going to get below 0 F, then your propane heater will not be able to keep up with the heat loss and things will start freezing in your camper. So you need backups whether electrical heat (with a big enough generator(s) output to power them) or a diesel forced air furnace (Webasto or Eperspraecher NA aka Espar). It is forcasted to be -26 F overnight this Saturday, at Castle Mountain Ski Resort outside of Pincher Creek, AB.

Having enough generating capacity also allows you to power space heaters, electric blankets to pre-warm the bed (closed cell latex foam mattress - warmer, no condensation or mold under it), block heaters, oil pan heaters and truck battery blankets, in addtion to recharging the battery bank with an 80A converter. Generators are stored under the table inside to make them easier to start outside, when it is really cold (<-10F). Synthetic oil helps as well.

Awesome...just the type of experience/advice I was looking for. Greatly appreciate you taking the time to write it out.

Good luck at Castle Mountain in -26F (if you are staying). We were at Fernie a couple weeks ago an hit -25C, that wasn't pleasant without a proper set-up. We just got up and left after crawling out of the sleeping bags (and hit some hot springs on the way home)

[bb_94401]

Turned into a long post ...

One of the things we like best about our camper is the dry bath, located near the entrance. All the wet clothes get hung up on spring loaded curtain rods, while suction cup hooks hold goggles, helmets, neck gaiters, gloves and hats in the shower. A plastic box with dry-dec tiles in the bottom holds the ski boots and let the snow and parking lot dirt/sand come off without messing up the bottom of the shower. Open the bathroom vent, shut the bathroom door and crankup the propane heater to dry everything and have all the moisture exit the TC. Place the boots in front of the heater outlet in the morning. Nothing like warm ski boots for ease of getting into and first runs on cold days.

The tray in the basement holds the active skis and poles, while additional skis are held against the wall in the shower using spring loaded curtain rods with pipe insulation around them.

We run with full utilities all winter with the 22,000 BTU furnance set at 70 F all the time, heat is ducted to the basement which stays at >45 F when it is -10 F outside. Road trips are 2-3 weeks. The rest of the time the TC sits in a heated garage.

Whatever TC you settle on, get one with a winter package (double pane windowns / skylights / vent covers, more wall insulation, insulated heated basement). Even then you will need to add insulation and plug up the holes in the TC like the Range vent, the AC and uninsulated cord and propane compartments. Then at night temporarily add insulation to the windows, skylights, ceiling vents and door. That way the furnace runs less, you conserve propane and you can get by with smaller battery banks. If I were looking I'd add a non slide 10-8 Citation to the TC suggestions above.

An issue with below zero winter camping is that even with a high output furnace the vaporization rate of propane depends on the outside temperature, the wetted surface area of the propane in the tank and the humidy of the air around the tank. Just going from a full tank to 1/2 full reduces the vaporiztion rate by 2x (3x at 1/4 full) even at 60 F, but it still is enough to supply the rated BTU output of the heater. However, drop the temperature to 0 F with a 1/4 full tank and the vaporization rate can only supply 1/3 of the BTUs. At -10 F it supplies <1/4 of the BTUs. At -20 F it supplies <1/10 of the furnace BTU rating. The equivalent of turning down the gas range from High to Simmer. The net result is that the furnace needs to run longer, meaning you need a larger battery bank to keep it running. I have 440 Ahr of AGM 6 VDC batteries in two banks inside the warm space of the camper. Higher recharge rates vs. flooded batteries. Less likely to suffer freeze damage if batteries are at a low state of charge.

Depending on how insulated your camper is and how cold it is going to get below 0 F, then your propane heater will not be able to keep up with the heat loss and things will start freezing in your camper. So you need backups whether electrical heat (with a big enough generator(s) output to power them) or a diesel forced air furnace (Webasto or Eperspraecher NA aka Espar). It is forcasted to be -26 F overnight this Saturday, at Castle Mountain Ski Resort outside of Pincher Creek, AB.

Having enough generating capacity also allows you to power space heaters, electric blankets to pre-warm the bed (closed cell latex foam mattress - warmer, no condensation or mold under it), block heaters, oil pan heaters and truck battery blankets, in addtion to recharging the battery bank with an 80A converter. Generators are stored under the table inside to make them easier to start outside, when it is really cold (<-10F). Synthetic oil helps as well.

[CptSydor]

rider997 wrote:
We camp in 0F (-18C) temps without a problem in our Arctic Fox 811.

Drying gear only becomes an issue in late spring conditions or when skiing in the rain. Our first line of defense is to waterproof our gear- this reduces the amount of water you need to evaporate while in the camper.

We arrange damp gear around the vents of our forced air propane furnace, and find that even keeping it cool in the camper at night (40F / 5C), the gear is typically completely dry by morning. We also bring resistive element passive boot heaters to dry out our boots. It is clearly necessary to crack a roof vent to reduce condensation in the camper when adding all of this additional moisture to the atmosphere.

With 300w of solar (in series) and an MPPT charge controller, our battery bank charges in even highly overcast conditions. We have about 180Ah of battery at 12V, which is sufficient for a week or more of cold weather, partially or mostly overcast camping, while running the heater, the boot heaters, and charging electronics.

The Arctic Fox is well enough insulated that we don't have problems with tank water freezing even at the aforementioned 0F outside, 40F inside. (The cold water line to the bathroom has a tendency to occasionally get frosty if it's very windy on the driver's side of the camper).

Skis go in a Yakima/Thule box on top of the camper. Poles go either there or in the basement storage tray. Boots will fit in the top box, but since they're impossible to put on when they're cold (and they suck the heat out of your feet), we typically keep them in boot bags inside the camper.

Awesome. Great information and highly appreciated.

[rider997]

We camp in 0F (-18C) temps without a problem in our Arctic Fox 811.

Drying gear only becomes an issue in late spring conditions or when skiing in the rain. Our first line of defense is to waterproof our gear- this reduces the amount of water you need to evaporate while in the camper.

We arrange damp gear around the vents of our forced air propane furnace, and find that even keeping it cool in the camper at night (40F / 5C), the gear is typically completely dry by morning. We also bring resistive element passive boot heaters to dry out our boots. It is clearly necessary to crack a roof vent to reduce condensation in the camper when adding all of this additional moisture to the atmosphere.

With 300w of solar (in series) and an MPPT charge controller, our battery bank charges in even highly overcast conditions. We have about 180Ah of battery at 12V, which is sufficient for a week or more of cold weather, partially or mostly overcast camping, while running the heater, the boot heaters, and charging electronics.

The Arctic Fox is well enough insulated that we don't have problems with tank water freezing even at the aforementioned 0F outside, 40F inside. (The cold water line to the bathroom has a tendency to occasionally get frosty if it's very windy on the driver's side of the camper).

Skis go in a Yakima/Thule box on top of the camper. Poles go either there or in the basement storage tray. Boots will fit in the top box, but since they're impossible to put on when they're cold (and they suck the heat out of your feet), we typically keep them in boot bags inside the camper.