Can I safely exceed the GVWR and payload on my TV?

[willdennis]

Hi all,

When I got my brand new TV 6 years ago (details in sig below), and was shopping for my first TT, I was kindly educated by some of the folks on this board on how to properly estimate how much trailer I could buy (dry weight, then estimate the "people & stuff" load) and how that would fit the max load capacity parameters of my TV (hitch weight, payload, GVWR and GCWR.) So with this information, I constructed a nice Excel spreadsheet that does all of the math for me.

The current TT is around 4800lbs dry; according to my spreadsheet calcs, I am about 100lbs over GVWR (1.4 percent) fully laden for camping. I feel the TT has been a good fit for my truck, and easy to tow (although, I haven't gone up any big mountains with it...)

Now I'm shopping around for the next TT. I'm looking at a nice TT that runs 5900lbs dry; that would put me about 250lbs (3.6 percent) over the GVWR, and also 100lbs over max payload (5.2 percent)

My question is, how concerned do I have to be about going over the published weight max's of the TV (especially now that I don't have to worry about invalidating a warranty...) Are these max's on the conservative side, and by how much can I safely exceed them realistically (like maybe up to 5 percent ??)

If it's definately NOT a good idea to go over these maxes, what could I do to increase the payload and GVWR maxes on my TV? (other than getting a bigger TV of course :P)

Thanks all!
Will

[otrfun]

BenK wrote:
. . . 99.99 percent of the time...most will never have Mr Murphy cross their path
and they typically say only happens to 'the other guy'...tell that
to that other guy...

To each, this risk management decision (gambling) is yours alone...not
what others advise...for they have no skin in your game...

I agree.

Grossly overloaded or a little bit overloaded, doesn't matter . . . it's still legal leverage for personal and criminal liability. It's an odds game. You can play the odds, no matter how good they seem . . . or you can make a sure bet with good numbers on a CAT scale ticket.

Life is a game of luck. The majority of folks go through life without experiencing an accident involving significant legal or medical implications. It stands to reason that this same majority (by their sheer numbers) is more vocal, and more willing to play the odds, take a risk, than the minority.

So, is this a case where the majority is "right"? Rather doubt it. I will say this . . . once you are *forced* to become part of the minority, your whole perspective on the odds and life change dramatically.

[BenK]

Oh...ratings has a performance specification and that is a minimum for performance
not maximums for ratings

Many don't think braking is part of performance, but it is.

As are every other aspect of a vehicle part of the 'performance specification'

That 100 lb might have the truck stop inches longer...is that going to make a
difference in all situations?

Have pushed the limits/ratings many, many times and mostly during my youth and
before the kids came along.

Even after the kids were here...got into situations where the ratings were
exceeded and lucky to have made it through...wasn't that other guy that day...

[BenK]

rhagfo wrote:
Otrfun, the example in your post is an extreme case and the owner was either not aware or just didn't care!!!!! Over tire, and axle, you really can't fix stupid!

Early in my career while still working part time through college, an
old engineer took me under his wing...taught me lots that are now my
value. Taught all the engineers working for me the same thing:

"Design it for the idiot and gorilla"...'as if they can misuse it or
abuse it...they will"

That is the 'why' of all the cautionary labels, signs, etc, etc
on all things...from the microwave to TV to vehicles to medicine
to even clothing...

Yes many like myself run over GVWR, but respect axle and tire ratings! I have seen rigs like you described, they just don't look at anything but what looks cool!

I my case we were headed to Oregon coast on a snow covered Highway 6, it was a 4X4 diesel big tires, pulling a TT toy hauler. There was a snow plow in front and we were going about 45 to 50 and the guy was about a car length behind the plow!

Any sudden movement slowing or stop of the plow he would be wrapped around it.

That is a Mr Murphy moment

Forgot to mention to decide if one believes in the ratings system or not

If not, then do whatever, but know you have taken the OEM's off the
liability hook

If yes, then learn what applies to your stuff

Only 100lbs over is over and it will wear faster than if under. Albeit
not instantly

Would you folks get into an elevator with a max rating that is exceeded?
It won't instantly break, but it will sooner

Or a boat with a max person rating and add a couple more folks just
because it is just this one time...anyone know why the 150lb person
basis has been changed for boating? It is not 180lb for boat ratings
because the average back then was 150lbs and today we are 30lbs on
average heavier

Ditto anything else that has a weight rating...or any kind of rating

99.99% of the time...most will never have Mr Murphy cross their path
and they typically say only happens to 'the other guy'...tell that
to that other guy...

To each, this risk management decision (gambling) is yours alone...not
what others advise...for they have no skin in your game...

[rhagfo]

Otrfun, the example in your post is an extreme case and the owner was either not aware or just didn't care!!!!! Over tire, and axle, you really can't fix stupid!

Yes many like myself run over GVWR, but respect axle and tire ratings! I have seen rigs like you described, they just don't look at anything but what looks cool!
I my case we were headed to Oregon coast on a snow covered Highway 6, it was a 4X4 diesel big tires, pulling a TT toy hauler. There was a snow plow in front and we were going about 45 to 50 and the guy was about a car length behind the plow!

Any sudden movement slowing or stop of the plow he would be wrapped around it.

[time2roll]

blangen wrote:
One additional point on all of the very good advise above: Should Mr. Murphy ever appear, there will be police accident investigators with tape measures, cameras, etc (and insurance investigators after them) noting every detail. Even if your experience is that there has been no down-side to your over weight rating, you can bet it will come up in that investigation and, at least, it WILL become a contributing factor. Choosing to be over weight is choosing to be on the hook when/if that time comes.

Yes the 100# over might be a contributing factor. Kinda like going 2 mph over the speed limit.

Anything else will outweigh the 100#.

otrfun wrote:
I think it was more than a ton over GVWR, and the rear axle limit and GCVWR were off the carts.

Yes I agree don't do this. I speculate he was speeding also...

[otrfun]

Here's an interesting post by Zippinbye at cumminsforum.com. The thread discussed the pros and cons of running a 2500 near or over max payload vs. purchasing a 3500:

I touched on this pretty well in my previous post. So I risk beating a dead horse. But this time I'll include a "why." Quite frankly, I'm surprised to see so many members advocating operation above rated capacities. Chances are we have all done it. Just because it drives well and feels safe doesn't mean it's right, or legal. The truck in my sig/thumbnail was overweight with the pictured camper. With my 5th wheel or boat fully loaded and everybody on board, I'm always bumping up against the 9900 lb. GVWR of my 2004 SWR 3500. It just works out that I am always barely legal. I don't feel bad about that, and it handles everything very well. But I'd like more reserve capacity.

Looking back at some past practices, I know I was an idiot for overloading various trucks I have owned. Maybe it's just age and ever-increasing caution. But seeing my pool builder loose everything really hit me hard. In the early to mid-2000's he was raking in cash hand over fist. Probably around $500K annually I'd guess. Cash for a custom home. Cash for quads, boats, toy haulers, trucks, Jeeps and sand rails. Gave his parents a paid-for house. He was working hard and living large. On the way to the dunes he blew a tire, causing a multi-vehicle crash that killed one and put another in a wheel chair, plus a number of other significant injuries. Three totaled vehicles plus his own Duramax and toy hauler and its contents. I used to know the numbers, but just picture a lifted, large-tire Silverado 2500 with a 35' triple axle fifth wheel toy box behind it, riding nose high. In his case the weakest link was the big tires. They looked good, but their rating was less than the factory tires. I think it was more than a ton over GVWR, and the rear axle limit and GCVWR were off the carts. But it actually drove nice and even seemed to have sufficient braking. When the left rear tire blew, all hell broke loose. You don't need the details. His insurance policy was rendered null and void due to "wanton disregard for vehicle weight limits and reckless operation." All of his assets were attached and liquidated by various legal challenges he lost. They did not take his pool company (worthless without him), but it was rendered useless as every dollar coming in the door was preyed upon by plaintiffs attorneys. 20+ employees out on the street. He lost everything. Including his shallow, money-loving wife. Dead at 48 due to a heart attack, we think. Few friends left, and a lot of people that hated him due to pain caused to others. It could be a Hollywood movie. On top of the world to destitute in short order.

I'd venture a bet that at least half the 30+ foot fifth wheel/travel trailers we see going down the road behind a SRW truck are out of compliance with one or more weight limits. To some extent I blame the sellers of trucks and RVs who don't educate their customers. Usually they sell only one or other, so there is no vested interest in cautionary advice. But as enthusiast truck owners on this forum, we all have access to the information necessary to put together a safe and legal tow. Still scratching my head trying to understand why some would advocate overloading a 2500, or any truck.

Okay, off my soap box. Carry on and order a nice truck that will meet your needs.

[willdennis]

Need-A-Vacation wrote:

Have you actually weighed your rig combo at a CAT Scale?

Yes, and the results tied in nicely with my estimation spreadsheet.

Need-A-Vacation wrote:

Have you add any accessories to your Chevy: step bars, tonneau cover/truck topper, etc?

Yes, and the weights for that are reflected in the spreadsheet.

Need-A-Vacation wrote:

Did you install the 3.73 gear set? If not, it was my understanding that only the Max Tow trucks with the 6.2 had the 3.73's. The 5.3 trucks had a max of the 3.42's.

I do have the 3.42 gear ratio, which allows (per Silverado 1500 brochure) a max 9500# tow load. Of course, I can't get near that without exceeding other specs...

Here's a pic of the spreadsheet I developed showing the calcs for my current TT...

[blt2ski]

LarryJM wrote:
A vehicles GVWR is not generally limited by any one physical attribute since the individual GAWRs almost always exceed the stated vehicle GVWR to allow for loading variances. A vehicles GVWR is mainly set by the strict FMVSS safety braking performance certification and that's whyt the GVWR is always listed on that sticker on the driver's side door label. Thus according to the Federal government if you exceed the GVWR then you are no longer operating that vehicle in conformance with the federally mandated safety standards. It is extremely expensive to run and document a vehicle thru the federally mandated braking performance protocals and get it thru all the hoops to have it certified for a particular vehicle GVWR. Of course the other major factor that is GVWR is how the vehicle is classified and what other general FMVSS standards it has to meet or what classification that GVWR makes it. One area I'm not sure of is say you test and get for example an F-350 certified for a GVWR of 14,000 can you sticker it at say 9,500 (for state registrations/taxing purposes), w/o tested that same exact vehicle at that second 9,500 GVWR??? ... that I don't know and never asked the brake expert I got most of my other info on this from.

Of course then it really gets complicated when you hook a towed vehicle up since no that combo is surely over the GVWR of just the vehicle alone and while a lot of trailers have brakes what happens when you hook one of say these 2K trailers that don't require brakes up to a vehicle that is say already within 500lbs of it's door sticker GVWR???????. Now you have a vehicle with a certified braking system of say 10,000lbs that weighs 9500 by itself, but is trying to stop a total weight of 11,500 lbs clearly 1,500 lbs over the 10 certified braking performance????

Larry

Larry,
You "MAY" be able to register the F350 at 9500 lbs, depending upon how that state does it licensing laws. BUT, that is the max you can go down the road at weight wise, before being considered overweight if weighed at say 9501+ lbs.
Some states like here in Washington, you take tare times 1.5 then to the next highest ton. OP's rig is will swag 5000 lbs empty. 5000 x 1.5 = 7500, next higher ton is 8000. That is the LEGAL weight he has to pay for, legal weight he would be legal to run down the road at etc etc. Washington state does NOT follow the manufacture warranty/performance ratings on the door tag. My two sons have half ton trucks, both are about 4800-5000 lbs empty, both have 8K registrations. My C2500 is also empty about 4800 lbs. I too have an 8K registration. If I get pulled over at the moor sticker gvwr of 8600, I would be considered 600 lbs overweight, and ticketed accordingly, OR, since I am under the 500 lbs per inch of tire max, I would probably get a 10 day "up the gvw to 10K" notice, then sent on my way.

Marty

[mowermech]

Personally, I would load it up and drive it.

[Need-A-Vacation]

Will,

Have you actually weighed your rig combo at a CAT Scale? If not, go weigh your set up so you know all your weights, including the tv ra weight. Have you add any accessories to your Chevy: step bars, tonneau cover/truck topper, etc?

I ask because we had the (almost, not sure if you have 4wd or not) same truck as you towing our last tt at ~7200lbs/ ~910lb tw. Our '10 Chevy 1500 CCSB 4x4 5.3/3.42/6spd was about 200lbs over the gvwr, but only 50lbs UNDER the rear axle rating.... We did have a cab high fiberglass topper on the bed, spray in bed liner, and that was with a tool box, 4 bikes, and I think a cooler in the bed. As you can see we now have a 2500HD as a result, which ended up with us buying a larger trailer.... So depending on just how you load you may actually end up being over more than you think, and possibly over the RAR if you don't know your current RA weight when loaded for a trip.

I did have a set of LT LR C Cooper A/T3's which were way more stable than the factory p rated tires. But being over the GVWR and very close to the RAR we decided to step up the HD.

Did you install the 3.73 gear set? If not, it was my understanding that only the Max Tow trucks with the 6.2 had the 3.73's. The 5.3 trucks had a max if the 3.42's.

I will say I never felt we were lacking power when towing ~7200lbs, even when we were loaded a little heavier (in the tt) for our big trip. But that is here in Michigan.

In regards to what is an ok amount to go over the ratings, I have found everything posted from "There is at least a 50% reserve capacity above the raging" to "The margin of the rating to the breaking strength is not as much as people think":..... Only the manufacture and the engineers can say for sure, which I am guessing they will never tell.

Good luck in your decision as only you can decide what is safe for you and your family!!!! But please remember to Include all of our families in that decision as well.

[blangen]

BenK wrote:
There is only one person responsible for the setup...the driver...even
if they did NOT choose the parts & adjust it all. You can have a 1,000
printouts of folks saying 'sure you can'...'been doing it for decades
with no problems'...opinion consensus them all...again they have no
skin in the game...only the driver does

The OP is asking about GVWR, which has an 'R' in the acronym, which is
'RATING' from that OEM. The other acronyms also have that 'R' in there

That number rating is their MAXIMUM for that product.

All of the specifications from any OEM is their contract to you that
also comes with a warranty (with terms). Most on any vehicle sold for
public roads here in North America also has regulatory agency certifications
to that 'R'...

Then those specifications has fine print that modifies all of the specifications
listed on all their stuff

I do NOT ever say you are good for it, or any such thing...but...provide
the info to make the risk decision (AKA gambling)

Note that all things designed/engineered for public consumption are
NOT for the good days out there...but...for that day Mr Murphy crosses
your path.

Either you have the right sized/rated/etc or not spot on...there will
be no time to go back to the store for bigger/better/etc...nor will
there be time to re-adjust anything

Many consume the OEM's design margin thinking they are good for it...well
maybe for a while, but things will wear out sooner than later and that
day Mr Murphy crosses your path...will there be enough to MANHANDLE
the situation?

All of my offroaders and trucks have gotten bigger over time. Realized
both that I have my family along and that I'm not as invincible as
thought was back in my 20's...been there done that too many times...

One additional point on all of the very good advise above: Should Mr. Murphy ever appear, there will be police accident investigators with tape measures, cameras, etc (and insurance investigators after them) noting every detail. Even if your experience is that there has been no down-side to your over weight rating, you can bet it will come up in that investigation and, at least, it WILL become a contributing factor. Choosing to be over weight is choosing to be on the hook when/if that time comes.

[LarryJM]

A vehicles GVWR is not generally limited by any one physical attribute since the individual GAWRs almost always exceed the stated vehicle GVWR to allow for loading variances. A vehicles GVWR is mainly set by the strict FMVSS safety braking performance certification and that's whyt the GVWR is always listed on that sticker on the driver's side door label. Thus according to the Federal government if you exceed the GVWR then you are no longer operating that vehicle in conformance with the federally mandated safety standards. It is extremely expensive to run and document a vehicle thru the federally mandated braking performance protocals and get it thru all the hoops to have it certified for a particular vehicle GVWR. Of course the other major factor that is GVWR is how the vehicle is classified and what other general FMVSS standards it has to meet or what classification that GVWR makes it. One area I'm not sure of is say you test and get for example an F-350 certified for a GVWR of 14,000 can you sticker it at say 9,500 (for state registrations/taxing purposes), w/o tested that same exact vehicle at that second 9,500 GVWR??? ... that I don't know and never asked the brake expert I got most of my other info on this from.

Of course then it really gets complicated when you hook a towed vehicle up since no that combo is surely over the GVWR of just the vehicle alone and while a lot of trailers have brakes what happens when you hook one of say these 2K trailers that don't require brakes up to a vehicle that is say already within 500lbs of it's door sticker GVWR???????. Now you have a vehicle with a certified braking system of say 10,000lbs that weighs 9500 by itself, but is trying to stop a total weight of 11,500 lbs clearly 1,500 lbs over the 10 certified braking performance????

Larry

[nohurry]

Odds are higher that you'll be struck by lightning than you'll be weighed "legally" with that combo. waaay worse setups are traveling our highways everyday. Buy it, and enjoy. Nobody keeps a truck forever, and when it's time for a new one you can upgrade. 😉

[willdennis]

Thanks everyone for the info and opinions... I just didn't know if the published weight ratings are from the legal team or the engineers 🙂

I have found lots of good info in this thread.

Guess I'll just have to make a decision based on all the info I've absorbed here and elsewhere...

Nite all!

[JIMNLIN]

OP.... The truck makers GVWR and payload numbers have no legal meaning (anywhere) as far as a overload condition. The tire placard payload sticker became mandatory in '06 so lots of vehicles on the road don't have a tire sticker.

The vehicle manufacturer may choose any GVWR he wants up to and including the sum of the GAWRs.
I found this some years ago on a prior NHTSA homepage;
GUIDELINES FOR CALCULATING GVWR

Manufacturer Specifies GAWR and GVWR
(Letter of May 6, 1974 to Heavy & Specialized Carriers Conference of American Trucking Associations): snipped for length

“….it is the manufacturer who specifies the values (GAWR and GVWR), and he is free to specify whatever values he himself decides are correct. Both NHTSA in its compliance tests, and the Bureau of Motor Carrier Safety on the road, will judge the vehicle on the basis of the values assigned. Therefore it is in the interest of the manufacturer to assign values which accurately reflect the load-bearing ability of the vehicle and its suspension.”

“The Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) and the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) are defined by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) as determinations made by the manufacturer. (49 CFR 571.3). As a general matter NHTSA finds that the manufacturer is most familiar with the complexities of this product and is most qualified to assign these values.”

And
(Letter of May 6, 1974 to Heavy & Specialized Carriers Conference of the American Trucking
Associations):

“The sum of the GAWR’s must at least equal the specified GVWR to avoid overloading the axle systems, and the GAWR sum may, of course, exceed the GVWR. Typically the manufacturer balances the commercial advantage of specifying a higher GVWR against the expense of higher
GAWR’s”. GAWR Determination Includes Tires, Wheels, Brakes and Suspension.
...................................................

Fleet Fords website says; note #4
Front and rear GAWRs will, in all cases, sum to a number equal to or greater than the GVWR for the particular
vehicle.
Ford markets a 11200 GVWR and a 10000 GVWR F350 SRW in the same exact truck according to Fleet Ford spec sheets. Example is a F350 SRW 6.7 diesel crew cab 4x4 172" wheel base same 5600 FAWR and 6290 RAWR same tires and wheel packages.

Being over a GVWR number or a tire placard payload number does not mean the vehicle is unsafe. If that was so then every commercial truck on the road is unsafe.