confusion over weight I can tow

[luggage]

I want to up grade from a TAG pull behind to a 5th wheeler and I am getting different weights that I can tow safely. I have called Ford dealers, RV dealers and even the Ford Motor co and all tel me I can pull anywhere from 8000 lbs (I know this can't be right), 10,000 lbs to 12,000 lbs to 13,400lbs. I have a 2002 Ford Diesel crew cab w/70,000 miles,7.3L engine and a 3.73 rear end ratio. The Ford people told me the truck came with a standard trailer towing package. I am finding too many folks seem to throw caution to the wind and tell me "man you can pull anything with that truck" I know that's, BS. I want to buy something that I can pull on the flats and hills in Alabama but also pull in the mountains in Tennessee. Advice is appreciated.

[gijoecam]

blt2ski wrote:
WHy did you not quote my whole post. The paragraph you left off, basically said what you posted!

Because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making, and you did not say the same thing I did.

That motor as ALL the IHC V8 diesels Ford used, can be had in rigs as high as 35-40K gcwr! Does one really think/feel that this motor will not be able to handle 20K gcwr?!?!?!? Probably do just fine. Even my IDI7.3 has a gcwr in a class 6 of 35K lbs, yet ford only gave it at best a 16 to 18 gcwr!

At the end of the day, it will be payload that will kill this truck! as it does for most pickups! of any size or gvwr depending upon what it is you want to tow! Especially 5w/gooseneck style trailers!

Marty

Feel better?

You did not state that the chassis would be the limiting factor, you stated that the payload would be. I fail to see how those say the same thing...

If you'd like me to address the difference between what you wrote and what I wrote, I'd be happy to. Payload will not necessarily be the limiting factor. It's possible to use that truck to drag a farm trailer with four wheels down that weighs 30 or 40 thousand pounds, however, it would be ill-suited to that duty given, among other limiting factors, the GCWR for the truck. There are plenty of 5th wheels grossing in the 10-15K range with 1500 to 2000lbs of pin weight. Some of the combinations will work fine, others will not. Stating that the payload will be the limiting factor is a hasty generalization at best.

The chassis will be a weak link in many cases! I also did not assume an F550. IHC put the motors I quaoted in 650/750 equals! WAY bigger and stronger than a 550! Not to mention better tranny's behind it too!

Marty

I still fail to see the point... Just because a company uses a particular engine in a larger and heavier rig doesn't mean that the same engine in a lighter rig is capable of the same feats of strength, and that seems to be what you're implying. If I'm reading it wrong, then I apologize for misconstruing your statements.

[rhagfo]

wintersun wrote:
The truck's GCWR is the true limitation and is based on the engine, transmission, differential, frame, springs, brakes, wheels, etc. to generate this number. If it is 17,000 lbs. and your truck with passengers and gear weighs in at 9000 lbs. then the trailer maximum weight fully loaded is 8,000 lbs. and I would subtract 1000 lbs. and look for a 7000 lb. trailer.

The GVWR is calculated from the factory supplied frame, axle, wheel bearings, springs, rims, and tires, and it takes into account the weakest link. Usually the weakest link is the load capacity of the tires provided by the manufacturer and these can be changed. It is never the rear axle and wheel bearings as with Ford they are rated to at least 8900 lbs. and with GM and Dodge it is 10,900 lbs. - minus the 3000 lb. weight of the truck at the year and the 7000 plus pound rating is greater than the 6200 total of the rear tires (6200-3000=3200 lb. max payload).

There are easy answers but they are not correct answers and it takes some diging and some math to work backwards from the GCWR for the truck and doing some weighing of gear and passengers. The manufacturers use a standard passenger weight of 150 lbs. and with a crew cab that can be a total weight allowance of 600 lbs. which may be a great deal less than the actual total passenger weight.

Wintersun, are saying it is NOT OK to exceed GCVWR, but if you put better than stock tires (and springs) on your truck you CAN exceed GVWR??
I see GCVW controlled more by power plant and gear ratio than brakes and springs.

[blt2ski]

gijoecam wrote:

blt2ski wrote:
That motor as ALL the IHC V8 diesels Ford used, can be had in rigs as high as 35-40K gcwr! Does one really think/feel that this motor will not be able to handle 20K gcwr?!?!?!? Probably do just fine. Even my IDI7.3 has a gcwr in a class 6 of 35K lbs, yet ford only gave it at best a 16 to 18 gcwr!

Just because the engine and transmission were the same doesn't mean that the chassis, suspension, brakes, and axles of an F250 have the same capabilities as those of an F550. Point is: the issue isn't the limits of the motor, it's the limits of the truck as a whole system of components.

WHy did you not quote my whole post. The paragraph you left off, basically said what you posted! The chassis will be a weak link in many cases! I also did not assume an F550. IHC put the motors I quaoted in 650/750 equals! WAY bigger and stronger than a 550! Not to mention better tranny's behind it too!

Marty

[Ric_Flair]

You need a dooley. Everyone needs a dooley.

[gijoecam]

blt2ski wrote:
That motor as ALL the IHC V8 diesels Ford used, can be had in rigs as high as 35-40K gcwr! Does one really think/feel that this motor will not be able to handle 20K gcwr?!?!?!? Probably do just fine. Even my IDI7.3 has a gcwr in a class 6 of 35K lbs, yet ford only gave it at best a 16 to 18 gcwr!

Just because the engine and transmission were the same doesn't mean that the chassis, suspension, brakes, and axles of an F250 have the same capabilities as those of an F550. Point is: the issue isn't the limits of the motor, it's the limits of the truck as a whole system of components.

[gijoecam]

Bob Landry wrote:
Why would Ford build a diesel truck and not put a tow package in it?

They haven't in the last couple of decades... But there is a difference between the base towing hardware and the heavy duty trailer towing hardware. Depending on the generation of truck, that can include a bunch of upgrades including things such as heavy duty hitches, 5th wheel preps, suspension changes, engine cooling system components, trans coolers, charging system upgrades, specific gear ratios, different mirrors, and integrated brake controllers just to name a few. The specific differences vary a lot over the last several generations.

All those differences can mean the difference between being able to tow a 10,000lb trailer or a 23,000lb trailer.

[Bob_Landry]

Why would Ford build a diesel truck and not put a tow package in it?

[DSteiner51]

luggage wrote:
I want to up grade from a TAG pull behind to a 5th wheeler and I am getting different weights that I can tow safely. I have called Ford dealers, RV dealers and even the Ford Motor co and all tel me I can pull anywhere from 8000 lbs (I know this can't be right), 10,000 lbs to 12,000 lbs to 13,400lbs. I have a 2002 Ford Diesel crew cab w/70,000 miles,7.3L engine and a 3.73 rear end ratio. The Ford people told me the truck came with a standard trailer towing package. I am finding too many folks seem to throw caution to the wind and tell me "man you can pull anything with that truck" I know that's, BS. I want to buy something that I can pull on the flats and hills in Alabama but also pull in the mountains in Tennessee. Advice is appreciated.

Appears he already has the answers as he has already called the manufacturer and KNOWS best.

[wintersun]

The truck's GCWR is the true limitation and is based on the engine, transmission, differential, frame, springs, brakes, wheels, etc. to generate this number. If it is 17,000 lbs. and your truck with passengers and gear weighs in at 9000 lbs. then the trailer maximum weight fully loaded is 8,000 lbs. and I would subtract 1000 lbs. and look for a 7000 lb. trailer.

The GVWR is calculated from the factory supplied frame, axle, wheel bearings, springs, rims, and tires, and it takes into account the weakest link. Usually the weakest link is the load capacity of the tires provided by the manufacturer and these can be changed. It is never the rear axle and wheel bearings as with Ford they are rated to at least 8900 lbs. and with GM and Dodge it is 10,900 lbs. - minus the 3000 lb. weight of the truck at the year and the 7000 plus pound rating is greater than the 6200 total of the rear tires (6200-3000=3200 lb. max payload).

There are easy answers but they are not correct answers and it takes some diging and some math to work backwards from the GCWR for the truck and doing some weighing of gear and passengers. The manufacturers use a standard passenger weight of 150 lbs. and with a crew cab that can be a total weight allowance of 600 lbs. which may be a great deal less than the actual total passenger weight.

[Ivylog]

blt2ski wrote:
A 5w will need 2000-2500 lbs of pin weight!

A 5er does not need more than 10% pin weight, they just build them this way so they can put cheaper tires and axles under it.
OP, find a 5er with 7K axles and big 16" tires so you can load it heavy on the rear (less pin weight) or even mount a generator on the rear, not up front. Your weak link is the 4R100 tranny which rarely makes it much past 100K miles before needing rebuilt if you do much towing with it. You need to do something like this to it.
I often gross over 26K with my 02 and on flat ground pull in OD with 3.73 axles.

[gijoecam]

luggage wrote:
I have a 2002 Ford Diesel crew cab w/70,000 miles,7.3L engine and a 3.73 rear end ratio.

According to the Diesel Supplement Manual they provided originally with the truck, that configuration is good for a 20,000lb GCWR and a maximum 10,000lb trailer weight for a tag trailer. There is a note below the chart that says, "Fifth Wheel maximum trailer weights can be calculated by subtracting the GVW from the GVWR." In other words, 20,000lbs minus the ACTUAL weight of your truck equals the maximum 5th wheel weight your truck is rated to pull.

So what's the actual number for your truck? Depends how much it weighs, and your available payload over the rear axle. Run your truck over a scale and see how much it weighs, then check the REAR GAWR on the door sticker, and go from there.

[blt2ski]

rhagfo wrote:

sail2liv wrote:
Stay 1000 lbs below GCWR.....Stay below TV front/rear axle WR...weigh TV at CCAT with people/cargo for camping and add 5th wheel hitch weight to that...if one not installed....try and load a 100 lbs where the hitch will be before you weigh to get a better picture of axle weight on each axle...then you can apply the numbers to see what size trailer you can get.....Subtract rear axle weight from rear axle WR to get pin weight...Subtract TV total axle weight + 1000 from GCRW to get max trailer weight.....this is a starting point then apply all the number and make sure your vehicles fall in correct limits.....good luck

It's a diesel, the best Ford ever put in it's trucks, take it right up to the GCVWR!

That motor as ALL the IHC V8 diesels Ford used, can be had in rigs as high as 35-40K gcwr! Does one really think/feel that this motor will not be able to handle 20K gcwr?!?!?!? Probably do just fine. Even my IDI7.3 has a gcwr in a class 6 of 35K lbs, yet ford only gave it at best a 16 to 18 gcwr!

At the end of the day, it will be payload that will kill this truck! as it does for most pickups! of any size or gvwr depending upon what it is you want to tow! Especially 5w/gooseneck style trailers!

Marty

[rhagfo]

sail2liv wrote:
Stay 1000 lbs below GCWR.....Stay below TV front/rear axle WR...weigh TV at CCAT with people/cargo for camping and add 5th wheel hitch weight to that...if one not installed....try and load a 100 lbs where the hitch will be before you weigh to get a better picture of axle weight on each axle...then you can apply the numbers to see what size trailer you can get.....Subtract rear axle weight from rear axle WR to get pin weight...Subtract TV total axle weight + 1000 from GCRW to get max trailer weight.....this is a starting point then apply all the number and make sure your vehicles fall in correct limits.....good luck

It's a diesel, the best Ford ever put in it's trucks, take it right up to the GCVWR!

[JIMNLIN]

Looking at Fords '02 fleet service spec sheets shows a '02 F350 DRW crew cab 3.73 axle 7.3 diesel has a 12500 lb tow rating.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/topics/techspec.html.

Check it out to your satisfaction.