Correlation between weight and "quality" build

[patperry2766]

First, notice that I put quality into question, because I have been here for going on three years now, and from what I have noticed thruout this time is that it is virtually non-existent.

That being said, some people will get a camper that is virtually free from any significant problems where as others will have a rolling horror story. I have read many posts where people swear by Jayco, and some where people swear at Jayco...guess it's just the luck of the draw or maybe unrealistic expectations.

Anyway, my question:

Is there any relationship to weight vs a better build?

I have been looking for the past two months now and several different manufactures produce similar models, but some are considerably heavier.

Are the building materials and methods getting better to where a lighter weight trailer can be just as structurally sound as one that weighs more, or is it in most cases, they're cutting corners to save weight to the point of you're towing nothing more that a flimsy shed behind your vehicle?

Have looked at Jayco, KZ and Crossroads in person but have looked at several others on-line.

[stufarmer]

When my wife and I began shopping for travel trailers our first choice was Airstream. There were several things we liked about them, then after a little homework not so much. The first on our list was the lack of a slide, the second and more important was the fact that they would void your entire warranty if you were to add to or modify its frame. They quoted, the Airstream trailers frame is not designed or built in such manner that by adding additional welding and weight to the tail end can have adverse effects on the frames ability to maintain its engineered integrity.

[patperry2766]

Lantley wrote:
Don't over think this. Materials are really a small part of the issue.
RV are assembled by piece workers. They are not paid by the hour but by the unit.
They have no real incentive to assemble things correctly/carefully. Their incentive is to assemble the RV quickly.
As long as workers are paid by the piece quality construction will be limited at best.

The YouTube video on how Jayco builds a trailer in seven hours just drives this point home on so many levels. If they are considered one of the better builders, and they are just slapped together....then how much worse are some of the other brands?

[patperry2766]

Sadly, you are correct

[goducks10]

I don't think quality would go up much even if they got paid by the hour. RV's in general are of lower quality than homes. Most fixtures are cheap. I'm pretty certain that unless you buy a high end unit that most RV buyers wouldn't buy any of the furniture, faucets, beds, cabinets, etc for their home. RV's are, with the exception of high end units not intended to be full time homes meant to be lived in for 20-40 years. They put lesser quality items in them because the average camper goes out 6 times a year and maybe has a couple week long vacations in it. The rest of the time it just sites by the side of the house or on a storage lot. So why have top end items inside while it's just sitting and not being used.

Most all come with only a one year warranty. Right there that tells you that the manufactures don't have faith in there product either.

[Lantley]

Don't over think this. Materials are really a small part of the issue.
RV are assembled by piece workers. They are not paid by the hour but by the unit.
They have no real incentive to assemble things correctly/carefully. Their incentive is to assemble the RV quickly.
As long as workers are paid by the piece quality construction will be limited at best.

[patperry2766]

The model we're most interested in are the ones that have the larger double bunks. This is what is currently offered by Forest River:

Grey Wolf 23DBH, 26C, 26DBH
Salem Hemisphere 272 BH
Heritage Glen 272 BH
Rockwood Ultra Light 2702SS, 2702WS
Surveyor 245 BHS, 291 BHSS, 296 BHDS
Windjammer 3006 WK
V-Lite 30TBSK
Vibe Extreme 272 BHS
Wildcat Maxx 30DBH
Wildwood X-Lite 262 BHXL
Palomino Canyon Cat 22RBL
Solaire 239 DSBH, 267 BHSE, 267 BHSK
Solaire Ultra Lite 239 DHBS, 267 BHSE, 267 BHSK
Solaire Ultra Light Eclipse 269 BHDSK
Puma 28-DSBH, 29-RBKS
Cherokee 274 DBH
Salem Cruiser Lite 262 BH
Evo T2850
Flagstaff Super Lite 27BESS, 27 BEWS

30 different models, some differences but alot of similarities floorplan wise, in 19 different brands. Too confusing, even if it is just slapping stickers on different models.

There has to be a better way.

[qtla9111]

BubbaChris wrote:
I suppose some of the factor is how you define Quality?

If you focus solely on initial build defects, then it seems like any of the makers can have a bad day/week/team. But then once those things are ironed out, other factors can come into play.

Is this acceptable in the automotive or electronics industry? What are the regulations for the rv industry? Are there any apart from the rolling frame? Seems like the box part is not part of this. What are the minimum standards for an rv in terms of quality and safety?

[atreis]

Most of those brands are little more than slapping different stickers onto the same trailer, made at the same factory. So - let's assume they all are for a moment. Since I can't find figures (after about 30 seconds of looking) for FR sales for last year, let's be generous and assume they sold 100,000 units.

Going through their website, picking a single brand (Palomino) of each type, and counting floorplans (probably missing a few - again, being generous) I get:

PuP: 12
TC: 13
Lightweight TT: 15
TT: 0 (same as lightweight tt - most mfg steps should be similar)
Destination: 7
Fiver: 12

Total: 59 floorplans

If there are some floorplans that are different in other brands, that would just increase this number. If some of the TT should have been counted, that also would just increase this number. This number also doesn't include ANY driveable RVs, which are included in the RVIA figures. Again, that would just increase this number. Therefore, the number below is WRONG - it should be smaller.

If they made the same number of each, they would have made ~1700 of each unit. No where near enough units to invest in mass production design and fabrication equipment.

If you look at the floorplans for the trailers that are generally listed in the well-built category of lightweight trailer, they tend to have very few floorplan options. Another possible correlation: The number of floorplans available is inversely correlated with the average quality.

[patperry2766]

Forest River has:
13 brands of toyhaulers
18 brands of 5th wheels
28 brands of travel trailers.

Excessive duplication of product lines. They could easily get rid of a few product lines that are virtual duplicates from one another, centralize production, increase automation, R&D, and have better economies of scale.

Just a thought...why doesn't Warren Buffet think of this since Berkshire Hathaway owns them

[atreis]

sushidog wrote:
You'd think if someone could have opened up an RV plant and done a better job of design and construction they would have already done so ...

Some have. See previous posts with brands that are known for building quality lightweight trailers (CampLite, Lance, Scamp, Casita, and more ...).

Problem is people get distracted by other things - the trailer that costs 2k less and is slightly bigger - and bypass the better built one.

In terms of computerized design, etc... That is assuming you're going to be making a lot of them. The general rule-of-thumb for car companies is that they have to sell 100,000 cars of a particular model before they'll make a profit on that model. Trailer models aren't made at anything like those volumes.

From this page total RV shipments of all models across all manufacturers total between 250 and 350,000 a year. The end result is that each is essentially hand-built (just like low-volume cars) which leads to a great deal of variability and the need for good quality control (costs money) and a willingness to fix errors (costs more money)...

[patperry2766]

If I'm gonna spend $30K + on a trailer, shouldn't I have a certain level of expectations about build quality?? Just because I'm not gonna use my RV as often as my truck, that doesn't give them the right to arbitrarily decide that all trailers in a certain price range should be poorly designed, assembled and start falling apart within a few months of use.

When someone calls and asks my opinion (not holding my breath) I would tell them that people trade up, and if you give them a well designed, sturdy, reliable and affordable ( it can co-exist), then when people do trade, they will be more likely to look at the current mfg because they had a good experience with them.

I think there are a few builders who do make a very reliable product that alot of people are very happy with (Scamp, Casita and a few others) but they don't have a floorplan that will fit my needs.

I'm not naive enough to think that things wont break and stuff does happen, but when you're already starting out with a marginally designed and assembled trailer, then the effects will be amplified.

[sushidog]

You'd think if someone could have opened up an RV plant and done a better job of design and construction they would have already done so - perhaps an auto manufacturer who has similar experience. I agree that most are not built as well as cars, because they are built to a price point, not a quality standard.

However if you think there is a business opportunity to do better, and make some money then hire some quality folks for top dollar, build a superior rig, set a fair price and sell it. The world is your oyster! Or maybe its not so easy to consistently build high quality rigs, sell them for a fair price and turn a decent profit?

Remember people need to buy a car to go to work and make money, whereas most RV buyers only want to buy an RV for recreation, spending money. Reliability is important, but not as much as price for something built for occasional use, rather than the daily commute. The vast majority are not willing or able to pay Prevost prices, even if they intend to live in it full-time.

Look at the new Bowlus brand that was recently resurrected. An airstream type lightweight built to exacting standards. You should be happy with its quality. And for only $100,000+ it can be yours. No they can't build you this light weight 2 wheeled trailer for $70-$80k and turn a profit. You may indeed decide it's worth it and order one. But you can't buy a premade one as they only custom build them to order. There are too few people wanting them (at the price they must sell them for) for the company to scale-up production. And if they do ever scale up to mass production for the price to fall, so will the build quality.

Computerized design and robotics have greatly improved auto production line build quality, but so far the machines necessary to completely automate an RV plant would be price prohibitive. Though robots are currently used effectively in RV plants for precision welding, cutting, caulking and such (just not general assembly). As they are used more often, build quality will continue to improve (robots do not get hang-overs, nor do they stay up all night with sick kids and have a bad day. They don't get hurt and sue, take long smoke breaks, get PO'd at the boss, join unions and strike or have a pension and health insurance to fund). http://gas2.org/2013/02/19/new-bowlus-road-chief-is-green-and-gorgeous/

Chip

[patperry2766]

rbpru wrote:
When TT quality and durability start to match that of the automobile industry, so will the price.

I doubt the RV market would support that.

They're in the same price range as autos, just not built as well. It's not too hard to get a $30K TT, $60-70K toyhauler or $80-90K Airstream and the price goes WAY WAY up for motorhomes.

Current pricing doesn't reflect dedication to designing, building, longevity and customer service. There is no pride in a job well done and we as consumers have no real significant options or a voice. It's really shameful if you think about it.

[atreis]

beemerphile1 wrote:
My next trailer is likely to be a Northwoods Manufacturing Arctic Fox. They are a heavy trailer, but on the other hand the model I am considering has a cargo capacity of 3,000 pounds.

Look at the cargo capacity of the lite RVs and you will see that they are built meeting the absolute minimum requirements. Many have such a tiny cargo capacity that you are exceeding it by only carrying minimal gear, food, and water.

Not true for all. My small, inexpensive, lightweight trailer has nearly 3,000 lbs of cargo capacity (of which, I use about 300). A ridiculously high number relative to its size. It's also built on a frame with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs - stamped into the frame.

You really have to look at the specifics of the particular trailer - some are decent. Some are not. Some, with lower quality control, have individual units that are decent.

Both Lance and CampLite are lightweight and have a reputation for good build quality. Scamp, Casita, EggCamper, BigFoot (not all that light) do too.

I'd say there's a better correlation between price and build quality, but that correlation is also imperfect.