F350 payload dispute

[bighog01]

New F350 SRW that I'm considering says 3326 lbs on the payload sticker with a 11500 GVWR. I asked for this info before the dealer had it brought in from another dealer. Salesperson and fleet manager say that its actually 4164 lbs because the factory invoice says the trucks shipping weight is 7336 lbs. Now I'm sure that's weighed with minimal diesel I. The tank. Isn't the door sticker the law? I always thought so. I'm not obligated to buy this truck and I have no deposit on it. Right now I'm not feeling comfortable hitching my Fuzion to it.

[blt2ski]

TomG2 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:
The only one who is having a hard time understand this is you.

I have no problem understanding legal regulations. I still think that most newbies who come on here with the typical, "What can I tow or haul?" type questions are not looking for only legal opinions. The moderator confirmed that "legal" may not always be "Smart and safe" Some of you do not seem to understand that. Most of us are not smarter than the company engineers and lawyers who come up with factory ratings. Some, think they are smarter.

Hence why I use examples that being legal may not be smart, and or say so!

[blt2ski]

Bedlam,
Even IF the manufacture spec is good, they are illegal. If they get weighed, they will have the 8 hrs for a single person, 4 for two, total of 8hrs to shed, move weight so , they are legal. This could mean dumping water, moving clothes, leaving stuff behind!getting a Mobil waste tank dump company to empty black and gray tanks on site.....
40-50k on a dual and single tire tag is 6-16,000 lbs over weight. My swag is 24k For main dual, maybe to 34k with tag depending on tire width, and h ow the state they are in enforces the FBL laws. A state can allow.more.than 500 lbs per.inch.of tire, they.can not enforce less. Like all thing great and small, their is a weather issue.with.the road, like too much water under, and road will get damaged by heavier point loads.
Most of these folks will be screwed BIG time if motor homes etc start getting the real weight laws enforced on them!
For us with pickups and trailers, it could hit.those pulling really heavy.Like cummins12v, 99.9% of posters on here are way.under legal weights.
Marty

[Bedlam]

I do remember reading about his story, but there are others. Some of these large diesel pushers were putting more than 20K lbs on a single DRW rear axle. I don't recall anyone talking about the 24K lb limit you mentioned earlier. This was brought up at the Good Sam Rally in Moses Lake - Many of these full timers in Class A's with lazy/tag axles are pushing 40-50K lbs GVW. Where I hear about the most overloaded axles are the larger Class C's sitting on a Class 3 chassis.

[blt2ski]

Bedlam,
Now that I think about this, a former now deceased moderator bought a Tiffin. Tires on front were not capable of front base weight. Tiffin put on higher ply tires with enough capacity, but still not wide enough to meet bridge law specs. He died not long after, so not sure how this was resolved. He was sold per our state laws an illegal rig! IE, initially 245 22.5 rubber on front of rig that weighted over 12,000 lbs. Ply rating ok, too narrow for the how much.the front weighed!
Something for many to think about.

Marty

[Grit_dog]

And that, folks, wraps up our weekly, "How much can I haul?" Discussion. Back to your regularly scheduled program.....

[TomG2]

ShinerBock wrote:
The only one who is having a hard time understand this is you.

I have no problem understanding legal regulations. I still think that most newbies who come on here with the typical, "What can I tow or haul?" type questions are not looking for only legal opinions. The moderator confirmed that "legal" may not always be "Smart and safe" Some of you do not seem to understand that. Most of us are not smarter than the company engineers and lawyers who come up with factory ratings. Some, think they are smarter.

[blt2ski]

Bedlam,
Type A motor homes can follow bus FBL part of equation, which is 24,000 lbs per axle. Along with tank truck and trailers with super singles iirc. Look up RCW to get a better understanding for how that fits. For the majority reading this forum, 20k per single, 34k per tandem assuming you have enough.tire width, will be max load you can have.
Marty

[blt2ski]

Again, manufactures ratings are warrant ratings only. They are not enforced by LEO's or CVEO's.
The engineered point load capacity of the road is enforced, IE Federal Bridge Laws.
ANY and ALL LEO's that have posted on this site, have stated, they do not enforce manufactures ratings. They do state, as have i, they WILL get people that are unsafe off the road. Weight will not be the issue.
I and many others, have also stated, going over a rating may not be smart or safe. It is legal!
I generally speaking do not go over axle weight ratings. Manufactured gvwr, I don't follow those, nor do I follow gcwr. Had a few too many rigs under gcwr stall out and blow up transmissions, below rating, on what turns out to be a lower % grade than mentioned in tow rating that I can pull. IE be specs a max 12%. I can name multiple roads here in greater Puget Sound basin with grades to 25%. Backing down one of those is not fun. I don't trust GCWRs to be correct for how I use a truck. I would suggest no one trust a giver to get you everywhere you want to go.
Choose your poison as to what rig you have, even if you follow manufactures numbers, it may not be enough truck! Per say. Been there done that.

[ShinerBock]

Legal opinion? He is stating legal facts and what is enforced in his state followed by telling everyone to check their local and state laws.

The only one who is having a hard time understand this is you.

Also, manufactures don't assign payload values. They assign GVWR's (are regulated for various reasons) and subtract the weight of the vehicle leaving the factory which gives you the payload value. The tire inflation and load sticker was required per the TREAD Act on all vehicles made past 2001 to inform customers the recommended load limits of the tires. This is why vehicles prior to 2001 did not have these stickers and only had the GVWR and GAWR sticker.

When I worked for a few vehicle manufacturers, they would use EPA emissions and US DOT highways standards(like the chart in the link below) along with axle carrying ability to assign GVWR's to certain vehicles. Some vehicles were limited by their carrying ability and some were limited by the max GVWR of the emissions and highway classification they were in.

Vehicle Weight Classifications for the Emission Standards Reference Guide

[TomG2]

Thanks for clarifying your position as moderator. Perhaps you should point out that yours is a legal opinion and the manufacturers use much more than that in assigning payload values? Newbies might be confused at the difference. Thanks again.

[blt2ski]

Tom,
When I was asked to moderate, I said I would not tow a max manufacture rating stance as you and others point out. I will say what is legal. I have pointed out many times 10k on the rear of a 25 series truck is not smart. Legal yes.
I believe the OP has a dually? If he does, frankly, he would be good to 20k on that axle legally speaking. Smart or safe? NO!
Weight laws or any law has to be consistent on how it is enforced. How we follow that law, can vary.
Marty

[mich800]

The fact is, the ratings on our vehicles are an amalgamation of engineering, finance, marketing, performance, and insurance and registration requirements. Unless you are the one making the final decision there is no way of knowing what the composition and weighting (no pun intended) of the final rating. Is there room to safely exceed the mfg spec? Absolutely, but what that number is will mostly be a mystery or educated guess.

[ShinerBock]

TomG2 wrote:


There have been mentions of Bobcat loaders running at 25 mph and overloaded construction trailers. This thread has wandered, as they all do, like an overloaded pickup on a rural highway. There is an analogy.

Sorry for questioning some of the "Advice".

Yes, and he was using that as an example of different tire ratings at different speeds.

His exact words were...

blt2ski wrote:

Then tire capacities based on speed, seen those too! My bobcat has 10.50x16.5 8 ply tires on it. Good to 4500 lbs, IF the speed is kept below 25 mph. Then the rating goes down to 3000 lbs, More like a typical LT tire of the same size load rating etc.

Anyone with at least half a brain would read that as an example of how some tire capacities are based on speed.

There are no ""inconsistencies" in what Marty is stating besides the inconsistencies you are imagining.

[Bedlam]

To give you a real world example:

My 2005 F250 had a Dana 60 front axle and Visteon Sterling 10.5 rear axle. Ford used base 17" rims rated at 3100 lbs and 3200 lb rated tires on this truck. This F250 was optioned with the camper package, it had upgraded suspension and stabilizer bars but was capped at 9800 lb GVWR due to its Class 2B vehicle classification. Even if the truck had the 3650 lb 18" optional rims and tires, it would still be limited by the class under which it was sold, but part for part would be identical to their higher rated Class 3 F350 SRW except for shorter rear axle blocks and badging. This is a case where you can order a vehicle that is strictly held back by paperwork in axle and gross weight ratings yet using all higher rated manufacturer parts from the next class of vehicle.

Now if you dig deeper into this same truck you will find that the front axle assembly from Dana is actually rated for 7250 lbs, but Ford puts in coils rated 4000-6000 lb based on application and options. The Visteon rear axle assembly is 9750 lb model that Ford suspends with 6000-7250 lb rated springs. The frame is the same one they use all the way through F350 DRW, so you know that it can handle 12,500 lbs or more in this application. So is this truck really limited to the sticker or is it marketed to particular segment with common parts across models which are cheaper to supply even if they have a higher rating? This information is not available in an easy to view chart for everyone to see, but you can research any vehicle and find which parts cross over between them. If you know the OEM for the part, you can now research that part and find its design ratings. This does require work and digging into multiple resources that may not appeal to some people to find out what the actual limitations are of their vehicle - For those reluctant people, it is better to follow the tags. For those that do have an interest in what components are used in their vehicles, they have the ability to make informed loading decisions beyond what the door label states.

We can take this a step further by replacing the lowest rated component in a system (once you have done your research). The paper tag has not changed, but the weakest link has now shifted in capacity...

[ShinerBock]

toedtoes wrote:

Actually, if you re-read the OP, you'll see that his question was whether the payload is determined using the GVWR on the tag OR the dry shipping weight on the dealer's paperwork.

The legality comment was just added for "filler". So all this arguing has been for naught.

bighog01 wrote:
New F350 SRW that I'm considering says 3326 lbs on the payload sticker with a 11500 GVWR. I asked for this info before the dealer had it brought in from another dealer. Salesperson and fleet manager say that its actually 4164 lbs because the factory invoice says the trucks shipping weight is 7336 lbs. Now I'm sure that's weighed with minimal diesel I. The tank. Isn't the door sticker the law? I always thought so. I'm not obligated to buy this truck and I have no deposit on it. Right now I'm not feeling comfortable hitching my Fuzion to it.